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IvanTih wrote:Never going to happen,ST and B5(except First Ones) are too weak to against IOM.
Star Wars would win beacuse of the Industrial and FTL capability(they have similiar firepower when compared to IOM,that means that they throw gigatons to teratons).

Star Trek has a more stable techbase and better FTL then IoM, the really part that kills them is that you can't negotiate with religious fanatics. That and the Feds lack any sort of balls compared to IoM. Q could, but that would require effort.

I reckon the Vorlons could, if they brought themselves into the right mindset, for one thing its probable they could jam the astronomican and astropathic networks. Think about that...

Star Wars I'm not so sure, for one thing marksmanship is even rarer and their ship's broadside weapons are so short ranged. Looking at the Industrial base the problem with Star Wars is a lack of unifying agency, the republic is more like the UN as all members are nearly fully autonomous. Cooperation is almost impossible while the IoM has departmento munitorium, not as good but at least everyone can agree on the basic design for LRBTs.

Eyclonus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never going to happen,ST and B5(except First Ones) are too weak to against IOM.
Star Wars would win beacuse of the Industrial and FTL capability(they have similiar firepower when compared to IOM,that means that they throw gigatons to teratons).

Star Trek has a more stable techbase and better FTL then IoM, the really part that kills them is that you can't negotiate with religious fanatics. That and the Feds lack any sort of balls compared to IoM. Q could, but that would require effort.

I reckon the Vorlons could, if they brought themselves into the right mindset, for one thing its probable they could jam the astronomican and astropathic networks. Think about that...

Star Wars I'm not so sure, for one thing marksmanship is even rarer and their ship's broadside weapons are so short ranged. Looking at the Industrial base the problem with Star Wars is a lack of unifying agency, the republic is more like the UN as all members are nearly fully autonomous. Cooperation is almost impossible while the IoM has departmento munitorium, not as good but at least everyone can agree on the basic design for LRBTs.

IOM has more advanced technology,they just don't use higher examples because it's just too expensive(like cloaked ships in Deathwatch RPG or cloaked shuttle in Kill Team),warp drive sucks compared to 40k warp drive(Borg and some other races are faster though).

That marksman issue is called Stormtrooper sindrome(good characters must not die so the evil characters will always miss,if SW films went real life,Luke and others would be already dead).

Vorlons are less powerful than psykers of 40k,God Emperor would stop from doing that.

SW ranges are great,look at the books(tens of thousand kilometres IIRC) and if not who cares,SW has got greater firepower.

Commissar Agro wrote:The Scrin from the Command and Conquer tiberium verse might be able to defeat the IoM, but not in a conventional war.
What they do is "seed" every planet in the galaxay with tiberium.

Considering that the IoM regularly inhabit DEATH WORLDS (Catachans) and TOXIC WORLDS (Salvar Chem Dogs), Tiberium would be an insignificant nussiance.


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Eyclonus wrote:The Vorlons (PS) from B5

I would consider the Vorlons to only be a threat if they decided to "Appear as the God Emperor" to the masses (also, I doubt even a gestalt Vorlon conciousness could sustain an appearance to enough people that it would matter). This would require that they actually land and appear - trouble is that the IoM is so xenophobic this would never happen - as any alien ship appearing on their scopes would be blasted to hell and gone. In a standup war, the Vorlons are severly lacking in numbers.

IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).

Hello Ivan,

From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.

Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.

Cheers

Andrew

Would Vorlons ever try a standup war?

Actually now I'm imagining the Vorlons manipulating the Tyranids to do the fighting, that seems more in line with their philosophy then straight confrantation... Oh thats just possible it could be close to Canon....

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).

Hello Ivan,

From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.

Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.

Cheers

Andrew

Problem wih the Borg is that they have to penetrate void shields then metres of armor as teleporters have been disrupted by dense materials and radiaton(being close to sun does that IIRC).
And I wonder how are Borg going to face IOM in boarding actions who has superior fighters,combat servitors itd...
Remember when Borg where ejected from Voyager what do you say on that,they looked dead.

And god help the Borg if they try to board a Space Marine ship.

I think the borg's strength is their ability to advance their science through assimilating, if they assimilate Eldar, they get wraithbone and the ability to manipulate souls, if they absorb the Tau, they get Tau firepower, if they manage to get enough 'nid specimen they could make their biological components equal or even greater to their cybernetics.

If they were able to assimilate a Necron...

IvanTih wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:It doesn't,that's just ST crap.
Borg adaptation is limited,it's not going to protect you against teratons impacting the Borg Cube.Even if they board they'll get masacred by the troops inside the ship(I know that there are lot of chained crewman,but the Captain just shuts down life support from that deck).

Hello Ivan,

From the basic rule book lance weapons are energy based weapons. By it's very nature, energy has a specific frequency. Laser at its very basic is coherent light/radiation/heat. It has a frequency. Ergo, they can adapt to it.

Shutting down life support does nothing to the borg. They can function in complete vacuum. If the Borg can board an IoM ship, it's a win/win situation. They either subvert the ship and entire crew, or the IoM scuttle/destroy the ship. Either way the IoM is down one ship.

Cheers

Andrew

Problem wih the Borg is that they have to penetrate void shields then metres of armor as teleporters have been disrupted by dense materials and radiaton(being close to sun does that IIRC).
And I wonder how are Borg going to face IOM in boarding actions who has superior fighters,combat servitors itd...
Remember when Borg where ejected from Voyager what do you say on that,they looked dead.

The Borg actually developed warships when faced with their first real threat (species 8472 I think was the number). The scary, giant borg cubes that ravage the galaxy aren't even their militarized ones.

Goku! He's a walking Blackstone Fortress who can go anywhere he wants just by thinking about it. Okay, is he a little too OTT?

Maybe just a little, I think we're excluding the Chuck Norris-class threats, even if they are credible...

Well I don't know if anyone covered this... i didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of posts... but the Empire in the Dune series i find comparable only in manpower and favorably in firepower. I say firepower because of the personal shields everyone has in the Dune universe so only solid non energized weapons are the only viable means of prosecuting a war. Any energy weapon against a shield equals an atomic bomb hence no one uses it. because to use means blowing your enemy and yourself to tiny little atoms....

The navigator guild in dune is the same if not better than the navigators and astronomican in IoM...

There is also the void globes, rooms, ships that cannot be seen by the drug induced visions in dune.... i guess that is comparable to the warp but it is completely cut-off from everything

but everyone in that universe has their own little agendas and for them to make any kind of unity like the IoM is damn near impossible

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The scary, giant borg cubes that ravage the galaxy aren't even their militarized ones.

And what makes you think that.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The scary, giant borg cubes that ravage the galaxy aren't even their militarized ones.

And what makes you think that.

Because Borg Tactical Cubes are far more heavily armored and have better weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_tactical_cube

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:Well I don't know if anyone covered this... i didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of posts... but the Empire in the Dune series i find comparable only in manpower and favorably in firepower. I say firepower because of the personal shields everyone has in the Dune universe so only solid non energized weapons are the only viable means of prosecuting a war. Any energy weapon against a shield equals an atomic bomb hence no one uses it. because to use means blowing your enemy and yourself to tiny little atoms....

The navigator guild in dune is the same if not better than the navigators and astronomican in IoM...

There is also the void globes, rooms, ships that cannot be seen by the drug induced visions in dune.... i guess that is comparable to the warp but it is completely cut-off from everything

Their Navigators and other prescient groups can't track other psykers very well, especially if they believe in another psyker, which may make targeting the Astronomican and the Astropathic relays difficult due to their operators having had a very personal connection to a very powerful psyker.

Also the Imperium are sufficiently bat-gak crazy to consider the Holtzman Shields to be a win-win situation. On a less psychotic note, how about a Space Marine fighting a Fremen barehanded?

The Sardaukar are pretty much described as being Astartes.

I don't know though, I think it would be a good fight. The Weirding might give the Fremen an edge. Remember that Paul could use the technique to kill a man with a single blow to the chest, and then he taught this technique to the Fremen who were already extremely badass.

Monster Rain wrote:The Sardaukar are pretty much described as being Astartes.

I don't know though, I think it would be a good fight. The Weirding might give the Fremen an edge.

It won't be,read Legion and you'll se that Astartes can move faster than human eye can see.

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The Sardaukar are pretty much described as being Astartes.

I don't know though, I think it would be a good fight. The Weirding might give the Fremen an edge.

It won't be,read Legion and you'll se that Astartes can move faster than human eye can see.

So can someone using the Weirding Way.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Way

During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.

Eyclonus wrote:
Also the Imperium are sufficiently bat-gak crazy to consider the Holtzman Shields to be a win-win situation. On a less psychotic note, how about a Space Marine fighting a Fremen barehanded?

the fremen would lose easily... they might be deadly fast and have the crysknife but the SM can take em easily no problem.

the sardaukar however might put up a fight because it is similar training and such but all the enhancements to Astartes and armor and weapons the sardaukar wouldn't last long

I doubt the Sardaukar, they're based off a eugenic breeding progam rather than a genetic engineering program.

Astartes have two hearts for one thing, and spit acid.

Fremen actually may have that advantage with the Weirding, but the Astartes have raw power... and spit acid.

Monster Rain wrote:

So can someone using the Weirding Way.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Way

During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.

That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.

I wonder if a Bene Gesserit could spit acid... They can use their minds to alter their body chemistry. I think it was in the House Harkonnen book where they talk about a Reverend Mother that was raped by Baron Harkonnen created a Sexually Transmitted Disease within herself that made the Baron be really fat and gross as you see in Dune.

It's why he only likes boys at that point of the story arc.

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

So can someone using the Weirding Way.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Way

During close-quarters combat, an individual adept at the Weirding Way was able to maneuver around and strike an opponent at unimaginable speeds. To the opponent (and any bystanders) the movement seemed almost like close-quarter teleportation.

That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.

That's true. Maybe a Librarian or a Grey Knight could resist the voice, but a normal Battle-Brother would probably succumb. I didn't even think of that.

Eyclonus wrote:

Fremen actually may have that advantage with the Weirding, but the Astartes have raw power... and spit acid.

Not all fremen had the Weirding but it has been a long time since i read the series so i am not completely sure on my information. I know some did if they learned it directly from the atreides line or something along those lines.

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:

Fremen actually may have that advantage with the Weirding, but the Astartes have raw power... and spit acid.

Not all fremen had the Weirding but it has been a long time since i read the series so i am not completely sure on my information. I know some did if they learned it directly from the atreides line or something along those lines.

Yes, Paul and Jessica Atreides taught the technique to the Fremen IIRC.

hahaha at baron harkonnen... i forgot about that..... Rev. Mom. ftw!

i think it is pretty agreeable that the Dune universe is just as vast as the IoM universe.

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:hahaha at baron harkonnen... i forgot about that..... Rev. Mom. ftw!

i think it is pretty agreeable that the Dune universe is just as vast as the IoM universe.

Well, it's bigger.

Dune covers the Universe, the IoM is confined to the Milky Way Galaxy.

Monster Rain wrote:That would be a much tougher fight and i would say based on that alone it could go 50/50 but they also have the Voice... it might work against a marine and even anyone with psychic ability because it reacts with (correct me if i am wrong) memories and brain function and is more of a physical advantage than a psychic one.

That's true. Maybe a Librarian or a Grey Knight could resist the voice, but a normal Battle-Brother would probably succumb. I didn't even think of that.

IvanTih wrote:No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).

I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.

The Voice doesn't change your personality or make you do self destructive things.

They could just say something like "Take off your Helmet" or something simple like that.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:No they won't,in one of the Space Wolf novels a Greater Nurgling unable to compel a Marine to his side,destroys his personality and rebuilts it from scratch and even after that the old personality takes over after some time.In one novels Ragnars resist Slanneshi magic and doesn't fall under it's influence(a beatiful daemon basically try to make Ragnar fall for her beauty IIRC,but not sure about the info).

I wonder how will Power Armor resist strike from Weirding Way?
Psykers in 40k are deadlier than those you see in Dune.

The Voice doesn't change your personality or make you do self destructive things.

They could just say something like "Take off your Helmet" or something simple like that.

I wonder how are they going to do that to an Iron willed Marine who can resist deamons who have much better metods of doing that.
Greater Nurgling tried to do the same Voice thing to a Marine,but it failed,so he changed his personality.

I think the idea and the science behind it is that the frequency at what the voice works... because it is different for each person .... reacts with the brain and nerves not with any psychic power like the warp and chaos.