Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Alphi, I think the reason they ret-conned the "Sorcery vs Psychic powers" debate is that GW realised that they would have probably had to go into extreme depth on what constitutes "sorcery" and what constitutes "psychic power" as it really isn't too hard to say:

"Well, you say my ability to astrally project to speak to you is sorcery, but that rune priests ability to shoot lightning from his hands is ok? Or what about that blood angel librarian who sprouts magic wings and floats around like some sort of bird"

The new Edict of Nikea makes more sense, the old one seemed a bit too 'plot-holey'

Maybe, but I don't think it is hard to differentiate at all:

1) Sorcery - you bargained with someone for something
2) Psyker - you're able to channel the raw power of the warp into things, and you might attract someone's attention while doing so.

The new version is more 'plot-holey' in the sense that how the hell do we end up where we are 'today' after it?

Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.

The Realm of Chaos, Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.6. wrote:Warpspace is Chaos, and Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.

Just in case people were wondering. Note the implication for psychic powers and sorcery: both channel the power of daemons, either with their active consent, or surreptitiously, with their implied consent. Either way it's happening because Tzeentch is rolling n-sided dice where they can't be seen by the laws of probability.

Alpharius wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Alphi, I think the reason they ret-conned the "Sorcery vs Psychic powers" debate is that GW realised that they would have probably had to go into extreme depth on what constitutes "sorcery" and what constitutes "psychic power" as it really isn't too hard to say:

"Well, you say my ability to astrally project to speak to you is sorcery, but that rune priests ability to shoot lightning from his hands is ok? Or what about that blood angel librarian who sprouts magic wings and floats around like some sort of bird"

The new Edict of Nikea makes more sense, the old one seemed a bit too 'plot-holey'

Maybe, but I don't think it is hard to differentiate at all:

1) Sorcery - you bargained with someone for something
2) Psyker - you're able to channel the raw power of the warp into things, and you might attract someone's attention while doing so.

The new version is more 'plot-holey' in the sense that how the hell do we end up where we are 'today' after it?

Quite so with the definitions. It's spelled out in the Chaos Marine codex, anyway. Sorcerers can only pull off their nastiest tricks by channeling bargained power.
The Thousand Sons were only able to reliably perform their feats at the levels that they did because of their Daemonic familiars.

As to Nikea, I think that there are a couple things to keep in mind. The first is that one of the recurring ideas in WH40k is that records are often lost or corrupted, and no-one except the Emperor and the senior Traitor Marines can recall what 'really' happened now. And psykers were even less accepted than they are in 40k. The one account of a marine from 30k ending up in the 41st millennium made it clear that he was VERY upset by how common psykers had become in the Imperium. (Angels of Darkness, and yes, unreliable narrator and all that.)

Second, though, only Space Marine Legionnaires were forbidden from using their powers. That actually makes some sense, an effort to keep Marines pure of (further) Warp influence and from becoming too powerful. Yet the real problem was Magnus' blindness to the dangers of trafficking with daemons for knowledge and power, not the use of psychic powers in themselves. But all Magnus saw was a rejection of his "superior wisdom," and the gifts he thought would save everyone. He was misguided, and more than a little selfishly proud.

It's ironic that the Corvidae never realized the reason why they were no longer able to divine the future. Their familiars didn't want to give away their real masters' plans! I did appreciate the Blood Ravens reference, though.

Something else to keep in mind is that like in real life, everyone in 40k has their own perspective. In Soul Hunter, for example, the protagonist Brother-Apothecary Talos is reprimanded by a Battle-Brother for thinking that he's always right, and reminding him that he wasn't the Night Haunter's only confidant. Think about his memory of the Night Haunter's suicide compared to that of Zso Sahaal's recollection. On the general points they're both in agreement, but on the particulars they're at odds.

Something else to keep in mind was that, as mentioned in Legion the Legions know about Daemons and had classified them as a type of antagonistic alien. Ahriman's perspective in A Thousand Sons makes it clear that he didn't regard the tutelaries as daemons, since daemons were 'known' to be malign alien intelligences rather than the psychic equivelant of the microsoft paper clip.

If Magnus had a fault, it was the fault of other Astartes and higher ups in 40k, that because they're superior to the common man that different rules apply. Take his version of the Platonic Cave, for example. I gotta admit I loved the part where the standard version was that the man coming back from seeing the Sun was destroyed by the men worshipping the shadows, but Magnus' optimistic retelling where the man is exalted by his fellows speaks of someone trying to change the inevitable because he genuinely thought he was that great.

Incidentally "Magnus" means the 'great' or the 'big'. Magnus Rufus is either "Big Red" or "Rufus the Great".

That ties into why I like the call the Thousand Sons the "Thousand Suns", alluding to the nature of psychically active souls in 40k (like suns), and the different lights of truth.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.

How is it impossible? There were human settlers on Fenris long before Russ showed up.
A legend about the first Wulfen proves nothing.
Wulfen could refer solely to those who devolve after aspiring to be Space Wolves.
Also, once Russ rose to power, any number of sagas could be re-written with him at their core.

I speculated that it was normal human colonists who mutated into the Fenrisian Wolves, not just SM.
There is nothing that covers the early years before Russ and the coming of the Emperor.

Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."

I like to think this way as well.

There can be more than we are being told by GW, because it (currently) doesn't suit them to make the 40K universe more complicated.

Who says that if we have the mortals and the Warp with it's gods and deamons, which can be viewed as the equivalent of Hell (not saying this is what GW intends, but it is a good way to "personify" the source of evil), that there isn't an equivalent of heaven out there either. It could have just (temporarily) abandoned this universe and it's involvement with the mortal races within.

For all we know the Emperor was an angelic entity sent to guide mankind in the battle of good against evil. Mankind failed basically, so now they have to fend for themselves for a while. The time that went bye since the Heresy could be just a blink of an eye in an eternal struggle that is going on. The spirits deep within the wolves could be (lesser) angelic entities as well (causing the tutelaries to be afraid of them). The vibe I'm getting from all the background I've read so far is that the wolves are pure at heart. Angelic entities don't have to be babyface creatures per definition. They can come in all forms and shapes.

Again, I'm not saying GW is intending the 40K universe to be like the classic idea of good/evil & Heaven/Hell that we have, and they seem to want the Imperium to be the main good guys in the story, but to think there is only the mortal realm and one other evil dimension is rather limited Imo.

At the end we'll have to deal with what GW provides us with as far as "official" storylines go. It doesn't suit them to elaborate too much, so most of this will have to come from our own imagination, which could also very well be their intention.

I think you're missing a few points:

Firstly, that Warhammer 40k isn't about good and evil, and other simplistic binary notions. The Warp is nasty precisely because it is amoral and uncaring, rather than somehow 'evil'. This is why H.P.Lovecraft is so popular, because he does away with a manichean (i.e. dualistic) human-centered universe of a loving personal God and hating personal Devil, and replaces it with forces beyond caring and comprehension.

Once you abandon naively dualistic notions like good and evil, you can get to the nitty gritty of a myriad of perspectives, opinions, values, and motivations. You can even have differing philosophies, with each believing the others to be superstition or stupidity, and believing itself to know the right or real world.

It was said in Hamlet that:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5, Lines 166–167.

Or, to put it another way, the truth is stranger than fiction (which is pretty funny if you've ever looked into the notion of truth, but I digress) because the truth can't be compressed into simplistic philosophies of good and evil. The truth encompasses differing perspectives rather than being an exact match for on. Warhammer 40,000 is more interesting when it's more like real life in that people have more motivations besides "Rarr, I'm evil!" and "Good for the Good God!". You know, those boring parts when Space Marines aren't killing people.

Similarly the Warp is beyond space and time in 40k, again mimicking Lovecraft's notion of space-time being a local oddity rather than a universal. You can't bung Warpspace and Realspace into a dualistic notion even if both are de facto infinite, not anymore than you can equate the cardinality of different orders of infinity. It's not that we don't have the limits of the universe laid out for us, it's that it's a big and complicated universe.

For example, the Warp might as well be Heaven as much as it is Hell. Both are prosaic anthropocentric mythologies intended as metaphors for the human condition and morality. Without that anthropocentrism the indescribable nature of the Warp is a lot more interesting, particularly if characters with opposing motivation interact with it. Personally I like the point in Codex: Chaos Daemons that the Material universe only occasions limited interest from the Chaos Gods, who are more concerned about the higher order affairs of the Warp than some limited conglomerate of lower dimensions.

Which is a point that I think people forget: That the Chaos Gods are mutually antagonistic, not only with each other, but with themselves! They aren't people, they aren't He or She, they're It. It's like Hyenas chasing lions away from a kill doesn't indicate they adhere to some higher moral calling, and act as agents of benevolent anti-lion gods, it simply indicates that they're competing predators with the upper hand. They're Gods insofar as they're supernatural beings forming the metaphysical substrata of the universe, but not so much in the sense of also being omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.

And that's the neat thing about 40k, that it's more than just a pseudo-abrahamaic morality play, and that there's loose ends that aren't somehow just unused storylines (or 'plots', to get technical) or choose-your-own-adventure fodder, but necessary for fleshing out a universe that isn't one gigantic deus ex machine.

Which brings me back to the point of the novels.Novels are about things beyond "And then he did this, and then he did that", and they're not factual reports or technical writing, they're intended to make some sort of point.

In the rulebook the ficton (a fancy word for the background or 'universe' in which a story is set) is there to give you some flavour of the universe, to create a wireframe that you can populate with your own paint-scheme, background, and so on. In the novel the ficton exists as part of an elaborate metaphor, and if anything exists or happens, it's there to either to drive home the point of the novel, or to decorate the plot so that it's not so didactic.

Hence one can see that the point of A Thousand Sons is to highlight the hypocrisy of the young Imperium, the overweening pride of the Thousand Sons, and the conflict between barbarity (the Space Wolves) and supposedly civilized utopianism (the Thousand Sons) beyond fleshing out the events of the Horus Heresy.

Hence the "There are no wolves on Fenris" could mean anything about the background from the stabilized descendents of Tyrannic invaders to degenerate colonists to warp-predators possessing wolf-like auto-cthonic predators of Fenris, so long as it makes the point that the Space Wolves are dabbling in precisely the same kind of pacts and invocations of daemonic power that the Thousands Sons do, and the Emperor might have.

Edit: Here's an interesting wiki-note about tutelaries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_angel

Well, it is known that not all warp entities are tied to one of the 4 chaos gods.

there are many Warp entities more powerful then deamons, but not as powerful as the 4. there are also some that are though to be more powerful, Gork and Mork to name a couple.

the Eldar gods certaintly are/were on par with the chaos gods. Khain ALMOST beat Slanessh to bloody pulp and the Laughing God escaped and continues to be a thorn is the Depraved prince's side.

the rumored God of the Dead(yhened or something) supposedly will defeat Slanesh.

Well-known, but not true. As mention the Chaos Gods are the Warp. If you're a warp-entity, then you're a Chaos God or one of its sock-puppets, and there's plenty of conflict just between a Chaos God and its sock-puppets, to reiterate the example of Skarbrand the Exiled, let alone the internecine conflicts between the daemons themselves (the Bloodthirster and the Daemon Prince in Dead Sky, Black Sun is another example).

Something to remember, that Codex: Chaos Daemons takes some pains to point out, that the personification of the Chaos Gods and other warp entities is purely metaphorical. That Nurgle keeps Isha in a cage and feeds her diseases does not mean that there's a giant bogey man in the warp with a woman in a cage, it means that Isha is an aspect of Nurgle, and that life and fecundity are as much a part of Nurgle as morbidity and stagnation.

skrulnik wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.

How is it impossible? There were human settlers on Fenris long before Russ showed up.

I'm aware of this. It's shown in my posts, but if there had been natives who had turned into wolves or wolf like creatures then those who turned into Wulfen later on woulden't be called Wulfen they would be called the original name of the people meaning it never happened before then. Nor would Wulfen have been called THE FIRST WULFEN.

It's highly doubtfull that a differintiation would be made about wolf creatures from normal humans and wolf creatures from Astartes just because of the differances between being human and Astartes. Also SW candidates are given the Canix Helix when they are still effectivly human at the begining of their training.

A legend about the first Wulfen proves nothing.

Who says it's a legend? The SW sagas are their histories and while they may embelish a few things there is still truth to it so if the "legend" as you put it is of the first wulfen then that was the first Wulfen. And again why would they have a differant name for the same thing and why woulden't it have been mentioned before in any fluff?

Wulfen could refer solely to those who devolve after aspiring to be Space Wolves.

Just because it could dosen't mean it does.

Also, once Russ rose to power, any number of sagas could be re-written with him at their core.

Again there is no proof of this. And even if how could this have been re-written from something before Russ? was there another being who offered Jarls a the chance to drink from a cup and gain great power then venture among the stars fighting humanities enemies? If so point him out in fluff. And what would be the point of re-writing Russ into the story anyway? It isn't a heroic tale of battle, it isn't a story of Fenris' creation? So why would anyone bother to write him into it unless he was already in it?

I speculated that it was normal human colonists who mutated into the Fenrisian Wolves, not just SM.

Again I know, it's shown in the wording of my post that I'm not just talking about SM

There is nothing that covers the early years before Russ and the coming of the Emperor.

Exactly so anything that is said happened then that isn't established is purely conjecture or fan based. Trying to fill in holes with theories that have only been mention in one source and fly in the face of all established fluff isn't going to work.

If there had been man wolf beasts on Fenris prior to Russ in any time period then the natives would have known about it and had legends of it as well as a name for it. That also means that the original Space Wolves who are HIGHLY enfluenced by Fenrisian culture beings as they are from the planet would have known about it as well which means they would have called any such creatures the same thing as the Fenrisian locals and would not have come up with a name for a creature that "already existed if it did. They would also not have a saga about the first Wulfen having been created in the time of Russ if creatures like it already existed before hand.

Now if it is said "well they didn't turn into Wulfen like creatures they turned into wolves completly so they where mistaken for wolves and no on knew they where human". Then how come none of the modern desendants of the settelers completly mutate into wolves? Alterations as major as that in their biology would be passed down through the generations. And how would you explain that they all mutated into wolves exactly? Considering wolves are a completly differant species how can a Homo Sapien turn into a Canus Lupus even with "conditioning to better survive"? And then how do you explain the size? Normal Fenrisians may be burly humans but they aren't abnormally large so how could the wolves grow to such large sizes? It can't be from interbreeding with SW Wulfen because like I said before they're entirely unrelated geneologically.

The idea that Fenrisian Wolves are the decendants of the planets original settelers is just that, an idea. It is unsupporeted in any fluff and is contradicted by most of it and so again I don't buy it.

Now there is some presedence for humans evolving or mutating into a differant species in the Abhumans. Ogryn, Ratlings and Beastmen where all human once in their lineage. And if you think about it the idea of humans being modified to better survive on their chosen planets works well with these 3 examples. But if that idea is applied to Fenrisians that means that just like every other abhuman they would have evolved into a humanoid creature and not a full blown animal. And even turning into a abhuman woulden't have allowed them to mate with normal wolves to create a future species of giant intelligent wolf.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Yeah I don't buy it.

I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.

And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.

The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.

have you ever noticed that the one place Fenrisian wolves exist is Asaheim...the one place where no natives live? is it too terribly hard to believe that human settlers via evolution/gene manipulation came to adapt to that particular area of the planet over a 20,000 year span? is it not also possible that during this time or during old night that warp entities inhabited the human settlers of the Asaheim region, twisting them into something less than men, changing them into beasts, there's numerous causes and theories that can be guessed at, however one thing is certain, the wolves of Fenris are not wolves, Wolves do not cause demons to run in fear.

Something else I'll note: In A Thousand Sons the tutelaries don't attend the Rehahti, or council of the Thousand Sons, or apparently any other gathering with Magnus present. Aaetipo, or Ahriman's tutelary, does attend because "it would be overwhelmed in the face of the primarch's power."

Similarly they can't abide the psychic dampening of the Mountain...

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Yeah I don't buy it.

I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.

And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.

The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.

have you ever noticed that the one place Fenrisian wolves exist is Asaheim...the one place where no natives live? is it too terribly hard to believe that human settlers via evolution/gene manipulation came to adapt to that particular area of the planet over a 20,000 year span?

Have you ever noticed that there is this little fact in the fluff of the Space Wolves that says why none of the Fenrisians live on Asaheim? It says that Asaheim is the only stable continent on the planet (which is why ALL the native land dwelling fauna live there) and that besides being the land of the sky warriors who the tribes are superstitious/fearfull of (Space Wolves) the tribes where banned from living on Asaheim by Russ in order to keep them strong so that they would make good recruits for the chapter.

Oh and the idea of Evolution, lets see in order for humans to evolve into wolves they would first have to de-evolve back into the closest relative between primates and canines and then they would have to somehow re-evolve all of the same characteristics that wolves poses plus greater size and all the while having to maintain the higher level of intelligence that Fenrisian Wolves have through the countless generations (alot more then 20,000) it would have taken to do all of this.

Now lets go on to gene manipulation. If the colonists had manipulated genesthat where combined with wolves it's true that they would start to exibit some canine traits after a few generations. But the kicker for that is that is no matter how many traits they took on of the wolf they would still have their human traits so they would not become actual wolves but creatures like the Wulfen. And then once again there is the fact that the modern tribes of Fenris are descended from those original colonists which means they would have the same traits.

And the key word here is adapt not transform ok it dosen't matter if it's 20,000 years or 10 minutes even in 40K people do not just turn into animals, they can change species given enough time but all of those species are human based which is why Space Wolves don't turn into actual wolves, they turn into Wolf Men. Kroot do it. Humans don't

however one thing is certain, the wolves of Fenris are not wolves, Wolves do not cause demons to run in fear.

Oh but humans who have turned into wolves do? or for that metter daemons who possesed humans turned them into wolves, then bred with eachother making super half daemonic wolves causes other daemons to run in fear? Considering I'm pretty sure the only thing that daemons do fear are the Greater Daemons and the Gods.

I would like for somebody to point out some fluff (other then that 1 piece from the book which dosen't even factually say that they aren't wolves) that even hints that the original colonists mutated/evolved/devolved/transformed into wolves due to genetic tampering designed to make them more adaptable to Fenris. Because so far every reason that "could be a reason why it happened" has been fluff with an established purpose that has never made any mention of colonists turning into wolves. Oh and by the way this whole thing sounds like a poor knock off of Pandorum.

The quote clearly meant that Fenrisian wolves are Alpha Legionnaires in disguise.

Seaward wrote:The quote clearly meant that Fenrisian wolves are Alpha Legionnaires in disguise.

And all the notions and thoughts created in the last few pages are thrown out the window...

It all makes sense now! you are truly a genious!

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Seaward wrote:The quote clearly meant that Fenrisian wolves are Alpha Legionnaires in disguise.

And all the notions and thoughts created in the last few pages are thrown out the window...

It all makes sense now! you are truly a genious!

of course! oh Alpharius you sneeky snake you, or should I say wolf...

@ Warboss Imbad Ironskull

It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?

See link in signature.

mrwhoop wrote:@ Warboss Imbad Ironskull

It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?

Nurglitch wrote:See link in signature.

despite the fact that he may be guilty of committing, as you put it so artfully, argumentum ad fireballum, he does make a valid case, the rules of reality in the 41st millenium are little skewed from our present day. To actually support my argument of de-evolution I would point out that I'm not saying the ancient human populace of Asaheim devolved and the re-evolved into the actual canis family tree, I'm saying they devolved into feral hair covered humans possessed of abnormal amounts of strength, not that far outside the realm of possibility, especially having 20,000 years and possible pre-cursor genetic altering technology they might have brought with them.

mrwhoop wrote:@ Warboss Imbad Ironskull
It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years

Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.

And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.

considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?

Also considering that no fluff has ever mentioned any Fenrisian transforming into something other then those chosen to be a Space Wolf and even then it only happens via the catalys in the Cup of Russ or those of Fenris who have been affected by the warp (if not killed at birth) become a dopperganger (or however it is spelled) which are still humanoid and have not turned into wolves.

And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.

I'm all for things being in good fun but that dosen't mean I'll go along with something that I see no possible way of happening and that isn't supported by any fluff. And I apologise if it seems like I'm trying to kill this thread but people need to change their theories to suit facts, not change facts to suit their theories. I believe that it is possible that the wolves of Fenris could have had something happen to them to make them differant after all they can grow to the size of a tank or bigger. But I don't believe that humans de-evolved into wolves considering there are too many holes in the idea and there is no presedence in the 40k universe for humans completly turning into an animal. Human animal hybrids yes, humans that are bestial in appearance yes.

Now if someone came up with the idea that say the wolves where tampered with by the planets colonists or that the wolves where affected by the warp (either naturally or through some sort of spell) making them more intelligent and larger (and in some cases 2 headed like Morkai) then I would see that as plausible as it fits with the established background of 40k.

Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.

Considering what we know of genetics it's possible to assert that some influence (they did it to themselves or the warp did it) messed with a sufficient number of the populous to cause varying traits that could make wulfen (man animal), upright wolves (animal man), Fenrisian wolves (animal) over so much time. Also, GW is just now writing out the Horus Heresy and while the bits of fluff have been around, we're just now getting detailed official cannon. I've seen older codexes, not wholly fluff changing but they have retcon hammered some backgrounds (WitchHunter/SoB come to mind).

Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.

I would say if it were some self medication experiment/process that those that didn't change had some trait/warp influence that allowed them to stay human and when exposed to more allowed the first stages of changes to show. That is to say the marine process bulked them up, and the enhanced sense of smell/sight were the first stages of wulfen. They go too far and boom, first transition that is wulfen. Thus why the SW can recruit from them has they had this/these trait(s) that kept them human and not turn into the Fenrisian wolves of today.

Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.

And that's why I think whatever trait/warp influence caused this freaked out the tutelaries because they were entities that were stabilizing/stable in the material. These new things (Fenriasian wolves) were not aligned to the 4 Ruinious Powers and whatnot.

I'm still leaning towards the spiritual explanation for the un-Wolfness of the Wolves. The genetically engineered colonist wolves is too complicated, now that I think about it. And as others have stated at length. The adaptation Magnus was referring to must have meant something more abstract.

As I recall, in the old Realms of Chaos books, independent chaos powers ARE mentioned. The Ruinous Four are the largest, the most influential (certainly as far as humans are concerned), and the only ones really supported by the rules. However, there is The Forge of Souls, there are/were the Eldar Gods, Raptor Cults back in the day, whatever the Hrud worship. The most detailed origin of the Emperor suggest he came about as a countermeasure to humanity losing its original, natural connection with the Warp, which was related to the natural powers inherent to Earth. (It's a little hippy-dippy, honestly, but it's pretty solidly connected to the philosophy that ran pretty strongly through the 70's fantasy that influenced Warhammer.) Other planets may have these native spirit-forces. Some may be unique, many have probably been subsumed by The Four.

So perhaps the wolves of Fenris and the Space Wolves are connected similarly to a local spirit of their homeworld? The Codex description of the Trial of Morkai (where the Canis Helix is implanted) is suggestive. "....must overcome the shadow within lest it possess him entirely." It's a ritual that exacts a high cost, but unlike a pact with the Dark Gods it isn't an endless spiral of corruption.

Such a spirit, being both of the Materium and the Warp, is not something a true Daemon would be too happy to encounter, especially if they're pretending to be something else. Like the Tutelaries were.

Exopheric wrote: I'm still leaning towards the spiritual explanation for the un-Wolfness of the Wolves. The genetically engineered colonist wolves is too complicated, now that I think about it. And as others have stated at length. The adaptation Magnus was referring to must have meant something more abstract.

As I recall, in the old Realms of Chaos books, independent chaos powers ARE mentioned. The Ruinous Four are the largest, the most influential (certainly as far as humans are concerned), and the only ones really supported by the rules. However, there is The Forge of Souls, there are/were the Eldar Gods, Raptor Cults back in the day, whatever the Hrud worship. The most detailed origin of the Emperor suggest he came about as a countermeasure to humanity losing its original, natural connection with the Warp, which was related to the natural powers inherent to Earth. (It's a little hippy-dippy, honestly, but it's pretty solidly connected to the philosophy that ran pretty strongly through the 70's fantasy that influenced Warhammer.) Other planets may have these native spirit-forces. Some may be unique, many have probably been subsumed by The Four.

So perhaps the wolves of Fenris and the Space Wolves are connected similarly to a local spirit of their homeworld? The Codex description of the Trial of Morkai (where the Canis Helix is implanted) is suggestive. "....must overcome the shadow within lest it possess him entirely." It's a ritual that exacts a high cost, but unlike a pact with the Dark Gods it isn't an endless spiral of corruption.

Such a spirit, being both of the Materium and the Warp, is not something a true Daemon would be too happy to encounter, especially if they're pretending to be something else. Like the Tutelaries were.

Not a bad theory.
I could see that.

Thats what i was saying; a lesser warp god of fenris. the god of the storms that the fenrisians worship; and as i said before it could also explain the rune lords powers.

Wasn't Space Wolves having werewolf aspects emphasized a little more in previous codices? I believe that before Thunderwolf cheese became the defining characteristic of Space Wolves, they were generally derogatorily referred to as Viking werewolves. Circumstantial and weak, but it may add a touch of credibility to the Fenrisians' devolution theory.

Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!

Asherian Command wrote:Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!

well they did in the opening stages of the conflict, considering every single one was a psyker to a greater or lesser degree, however they were undone by the combined flaw inherent in their geneseed and the fact that many of their "tutelaries" showed their true forms as void predators and demons and used their Thousand Son counterparts as hosts, thus the defence largely crumbled when they all started being possessed and spontaneously mutating. makes it rather hard to conduct a planetary defense when that happens.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!

well they did in the opening stages of the conflict, considering every single one was a psyker to a greater or lesser degree, however they were undone by the combined flaw inherent in their geneseed and the fact that many of their "tutelaries" showed their true forms as void predators and demons and used their Thousand Son counterparts as hosts, thus the defence largely crumbled when they all started being possessed and spontaneously mutating. makes it rather hard to conduct a planetary defense when that happens.

Yeah thats true.

anyways, back to the meat and potatoes of this thread, I'd say the nature spirit theory has some merit to it, is it not also possible that the wolves of Fenris are on some level psychic beings of a sort? just like humans have telepaths, navigators, and blanks, what if the wolves are in the same category. Maybe they provide a sort of psychic dampening effect like a blank, but rather than a blanket effect, they provide a mutually beneficial power that both acts in defense of the warp and in support of the space wolves due to the canis helix.