Now that Vehicles with Invuls are all the rage, what do you think the Monolith will/should get?

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**Melissia**

I would not agree to that buff unless it lost some other functionality.It's already just about the best vehicle in 40k (and the only reasons Necrons aren't entirely a joke army).

**Formosa**

sorry i wasnt clear lol

as is the monolith is the correct points, with tits stats and ablilities, however if it got the teleport homer, 250pts at least

**SlaveToDorkness**

Melissia wrote:
My Sisters don't have any strength nine or ten weapons.

At all.

The codex has access to S9+ weapons, whether you use them or not.

**Jackmojo**

Another reason I'd like to see an invulnerable save on the Monolith how much cooler it would make them in Apocalypse.

Those damn phalanxes with their geometry of doom power would be radical then.

Jack

**Kevin949**

Melissia wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Melissia wrote:Which is fine with me, as my Sisters don't have anything higher than strength eight anyway. My Orks don't have much higher than strength eight outside of dreads. My Guard have enough firepower to simply use pure numbers of hits to make it not matter. Etc.7

Thing is, Strength 8 can still penetrate AV12.

Ya, and str 10 can still penetrate AV 14. You see, it's exactly the same math. If an AV 12 vehicle can never be counted as getting hit by str9+ AND ignores the additional D6 of certain weapons, it is absolutely no different than a monolith except for the fact that there is slightly more Str8+ weaponry than there is Str10.
"Slightl"y more?

My Sisters don't have any strength nine or ten weapons.

At all.

There is no "slightly" about it. S8 AP1 (sometimes melta) and S6 chainfist weapons are all we have to rely on for anti-tanks. Simply having invulnerability to Melta would be fine, but it's an invulnerability to ANYTHING with a 2d6 penetration. Even said s6 chainfists can't do anything to the vehicle, and Sisters already suck in close combat as it is. Making it more survivable would be stupid, and also stupid, when already many times you have to build armies specifically around destroying the vehicle, either that or you pretty much can't build an army around it.

just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.

**asimo77**

At least SOB have all those nice toys, the only S9 for crons are the monolith (and even then that is only 1 hit from the lith's blast), heavy destroyers, and the Nightbringer's ranged attack.

**Formosa**

ok I went away and had a think about the Monolith, so here goes

Monolith pts:260
F S R BS
14 14 14 4
Special rules: Melta weapons only get 1D6 penetration
lance's never reduce its armour, ponderous (may always fire its weapons.. AWAYS!, looking at you RAW nuts lol) and move up to 6" a turn.
Teleport homer everything else remains the same

**Darkvoidof40k**

Well, if we're going to post up our own personal views on how the profile should be, I'll just get the one off my fandex.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Monolith
Statline: BS: 4 Front Armour: 14 Side Armour: 14 Rear Armour: 14
Points cost: 300
Unit Type: Tank, Skimmer
Number/unit: 1
Special Rules – Deep Strike,
Crewless: The Monolith has no crew. It is unaffected by crew stunned and crew shaken results on the vehicle damage chart.
Living Metal: The Monolith has a 4+ Invulnerable save against all glancing and penetrating hits – taken before rolls on the damage table.
Teleport: This rule gives three abilities that the controlling player may use once per turn, however no more than one of them can be used in a turn.
1)A single Necron infantry unit coming on from reserve may enter play from the Monoliths' portal, provided it was on the table at the start of the turn as if they had just disembarked.
2)At the beginning of your turn, you can pick one of your infantry units on the board and remove them from the table, then replace them as if they had just disembarked from the Monolith – treating the portal as an access point.
3)The Monolith may teleport itself – remove the model from the table and replace it anywhere atleast 18 inches away from its previous position, but no more than 36 inches away. It may not do anything else for the rest of the turn if it teleports itself!This rule may not be used if the Monoliths' Power Matrix has been disabled – see below for details.
Ponderous: The Monolith is slow and lumbering, and can only move up to 6” per turn. If it does move, it may still fire all of its weapons (unless it is teleporting itself – see above). If the Monolith suffers an immobilized result on the vehicle damage chart, then it will not crash and be destroyed, but sink to the ground and continue to fight from there.
Auto Targeting: When the Monolith's Gauss Destructor's fire, they each fire at the closest enemy unit that they can. This could result in the Monolith firing at separate units. The Monolith Power Matrix may fire at a separate target to the Gauss Destructor's, but it doesn't have to be the closest.
Wargear
4 Gauss Destructor's,
Monolith Power Matrix: The Monolith Power Matrix is a massive protruding crystal on the top of a Monolith that pulses with sickly green energy. It may be fired in the shooting phase with the following profile:
Monolith Power Matrix – Range: 48” Strength: 10 AP: 1 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gauss Weapon
It may not be destroyed by a Weapon Destroyed result on the damage table. It may only be destroyed if the Monolith suffers a Destroyed – Wrecked or Destroyed - Explodes! result. If the Monolith suffers a Destroyed – Explodes! result, then the cataclysmic energies of the Power Matrix are released. All models, within 6+D6 inches suffer a Strength 8 AP 1 hit. This overrides the normal rules for vehicles exploding, and the Monolith will never explode in any other way than described above. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.

**Formosa**

lol fandex at its worst, i was fine with most of it untill

D6+6 " Str8 Ap 1 explosion, what possible downside is there to just teleporting infront of those meganobs etc.

also why the doubled range of the whip? i always liked the imagery of the short range Snap from the normal whip, kinda like the Red Alert Tesla coil, but less electric..y and more Thunder clap then the ground explodes upwards send vapourising bits everywhere (like fallout 1 static gun)

**Darkvoidof40k**

Well, I've been considering bringing it back down to 24" as it is quite annoying in games to just have it sit back too far away to reach, being the immovable, unkillable firebase that it is. But then there's nothing long range in the 'dex.

But I won' continue this discussion any further. You have questions/suggestions/whatever about the rules from my 'dex, then there's a thread for it.

**Melissia**

Kevin949 wrote:just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.

It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design.

**jp400**

Unholy_Martyr wrote:A neat thing would be to make any Necron base Toughness 5 with Feel No Pain...that would make their Infantry a little better, not to mention changing the weapons around...but that's just me.

Only if they cost as much as Plague Marines Base.

**Melissia**

Yeah, but Plague Marines dont' phase out.

**Kevin949**

Melissia wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.
It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design.

Maybe, but until they give the crons more options on vehicles OR more options FOR the one vehicle they have, I'll be perfectly happy with a small redo of the rules for clarification and leaving the rest of the special rules in tact.

**asimo77**

Immortals are pretty close to plague marines, but are more expensive and a bit worse in a few areas.

"It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design." D: At least let us have one good unit! (ok destroyers are pretty rad too)

**Formosa**

and the C'tan.. and Lords.. and warsythes.. and Paria... couldnt finnish that one lol

**asimo77**

C'tan and pariahs are nice, but they take up precious points that could be spent on things with the necron rule. Lords are ok I guess, nothing particularly astonishing about them though.

**Melissia**

I never said the Necrons shouldn't have good units... rather, I said you should focus on buffing the infantry rather than buffing the already overpowered Monolith.

**asimo77**

Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.

**Eumerin**

asimo77 wrote:Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.

A good part of whether you think it's OP or not probably depends on the race(s) that you play. Eldar, for instance (with S8 Bright Lances that suddenly don't Lance) are likely to feel much more strongly about it than IG or Marines with their Lascannons.

>.>

**Praxiss**

Ok. Bearignmind that all this argueing maybe the forum equivilant of p*****g against the wind....

Does anyoen actually have any info on when/if the Necron'dex wil be updated? I think that last i heard was Q3 of 2011.

**asimo77**

Eumerin wrote:
asimo77 wrote:Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.

A good part of whether you think it's OP or not probably depends on the race(s) that you play. Eldar, for instance (with S8 Bright Lances that suddenly don't Lance) are likely to feel much more strongly about it than IG or Marines with their Lascannons.

>.>

Perhaps, my main opponents are IG and Tau after all. But I know SM of most varieties and CSM can get S10 weaponry as well (might be others, not sure). Either way though, most people shouldn't bother fighting the monolith anyway, it's not too dangerous on it's own, and killing warriors is an easier winning strategy.

**Eumerin**

asimo77 wrote:Perhaps, my main opponents are IG and Tau after all. But I know SM of most varieties and CSM can get S10 weaponry as well (might be others, not sure). Either way though, most people shouldn't bother fighting the monolith anyway, it's not too dangerous on it's own, and killing warriors is an easier winning strategy.

The primary anti-tank weapon for the Eldar is the Bright Lance, which relies on its Lance attribute to overcome its S8 attribute (since the Eldar are supposedly the masters of laser technology - at least according to the fluff in their codex). The alternative for many Eldar armies is the Distortion Cannon, which is a neat little toy that ignores the armor value of the target.

And of course the Monolith renders it useless.

Yes, it's no doubt true that players should be focusing on the infantry. But there are times that you can't afford to ignore the monolith.

**asimo77**

Why doesn't the d-cannon work? (also wraithguard have the same gun more or less right?) Also there's wraithlords with S10 and fire prisms have S9 focussed, and I think 10 and AP1 when combined

Forgot Haywire nades.

I think that's all the eldar junk that can affect liths

**Eumerin**

asimo77 wrote:Why doesn't the d-cannon work? (also wraithguard have the same gun more or less right?) Also there's wraithlords with S10 and fire prisms have S9 focussed, and I think 10 and AP1 when combined

Forgot Haywire nades.

I think that's all the eldar junk that can affect liths

It's been a while since I've seen a monolith on the table, but my understanding was that they ignored all of the unconventional "auto-pen on a 5+" style weapons. Though as I said, it's been a while so I could be misremembering the rules.

As for D-Cannons, Wraithguard have the exact same gun - except without the blast template. If I was mistaken on the D-Cannon, then obviously both support version and the Wraithguard version work. Haywire Grenades fit in the same category. I used the "primary anti-tank" phrase as my out on not mentioning the Fire Prism because that particular vehicle is forced to compete for the very valuable Heavy slots, whereas Bright Lances can turn up all over the place (including on dedicated transports).

**asimo77**

I can't say I know too much about Eldar so if you're stuck with S8 lance, that could be a pain.

Also the "glances on a 2-4, pens on a 5-6" style weapons and the like should work on a lith. That also includes things with the gauss rule, eversor's gauntlet, and angonisers (the old ones at least, dunno what the new rules are)

**Grakmar**

The problem with the Monolith currently: 90% of armies rely on Anti-Vehicle choices that don't work on a Monolith.

The solution to the Monolith currently: Phase Out

As long as Phase Out exists, the Monolith doesn't need to be changed. If phase out is being removed, then the Monolith needs a nerf. I like the removal of Living Metal and giving it AV15. That would mean melta can take it out, but not totally reliably. I'd also give it a rule so that lance weapons treat it like AV13, not 12.

Running some numbers: Str 8 melta penetrate AV15 42% of time (AV14 is currently 58%). That seems like a good upgrade without making melta worthless. The problem is the armies that rely on LASS for Anti-Vehicle...

**Darkvoidof40k**

AV 15 is just braking boundaries. Sure, most of the game does that anyway, but for land vehicles, AV14 is as good as it gets. Structure points and invulnerable saves are the only way to make them tougher, without making them unfair and ridiculous.

AV14. 4++. 'nuff said.

**Kilkrazy**

Melissia wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover
Most of which can't penetrate vehicle armor very well anyway.

That;s true, though of course it is also ineffective against melee weapons, and most Ork vehicles have low armour.

On balance you are certainly better off with a 4++ save than a 4= cover save.