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yes the T-hammer plays a vital role, but at worst everyones going simo after they already swung once

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think people are forgetting after the 1st round, assuming Lysander connects, everyone is going at initiative 1. So the "I" factor is a very temporary issue.

Except in the case of the Sanguinor, where he's getting at least 5 and probably 6 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound before Lysander gets to swing.

I would easily put Sanguinor > Lysander

Lelith Hesperax actually gives him a run for the money as well:

Assuming stuck in CC with no one getting the charge:

Lelith gets 8 attacks first, 5.33 hits, 1.77 wounds, .59 unsaved wounds.

Lysander gets 2 attacks, .75 hits, .625 wounds, .208 unsaved.

So, Lelith survives on average 5 rounds, doing 2.95 wounds. All things considered, in 5 rounds, 1 unsaved wound could go either way giving aproximately a 50/50 shot.

Urien Rakarth also gives an interesting fight:
Again, assuming no charge:

Urien - 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, .22 unsaved

Lysander - 3 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2 nulified so .66 hits, .55 wounds.

Every two rounds Urien heals 1 wound, netting .1 wounds per two rounds for Lysander, and .44 for Urien. Takes Urien 9 rounds to kill Lysander, and Lysander 30 rounds to kill Urien.

Urien Rakarth would be instantly killed on the first wound.

The best way to deal with Lysander is hit him with everything in your army. He is one tough old bastard and is not going down without a fight.

TWC Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw/StormShield can do it as well... t5 means no ID from Lysanders str 8 hit, also has 3 wounds, can reroll to hit or to wound and has a 3+ invul...and has 5 attacks with counter-charge.

lysander hits at S10 zonder

Swarmlord, Ghazkull, Marneus Calgar, Sanguinor, Mephiston, Nightbringer, Deciever or Abaddon all have a better than average chance.

Special mention goes out to the Grey Knight Grand Master for being the only un-named character who could whoop Lysander's yellow arse.

Oh...even still give em Saga of the Bear for EW and there you go. Plus on TWC he has a better charge range, and 6 str 5 power weapon reroll wounds. Or just go with Saga of the Bear, TWC, TH/SS and ID him. Maybe Im looking at the wrong SM codex but Lysander looks to be t4 with no EW. Lysander is still pretty beastly tho.

cronus on rhino
he will never see it coming

Zonder wrote:Oh...even still give em Saga of the Bear for EW and there you go. Plus on TWC he has a better charge range, and 6 str 5 power weapon reroll wounds. Or just go with Saga of the Bear, TWC, TH/SS and ID him. Maybe Im looking at the wrong SM codex but Lysander looks to be t4 with no EW. Lysander is still pretty beastly tho.

I believe you're looking at the wrong codex.

Couldn't an Ancient Haemmy with a Mindphase gauntlet stand a pretty good chance of, if not dropping him, locking him down for eternity?

Given a mindphase gauntlet, scissorhand, and a Vexator mask the Haemmey's 155pts or so, with 5 attacks (6 on the charge). For each one that hits Lysander has to make a strength and a leadership check, plus another leadership check before his attacks. Fail any of those, and he can't attack for the turn.

Given one round of bad luck and the Haemmy's smashed flat, but we're talking about averages here.

Shrike325 wrote:Lelith Hesperax actually gives him a run for the money as well:

Assuming stuck in CC with no one getting the charge:

Lelith gets 8 attacks first, 5.33 hits, 1.77 wounds, .59 unsaved wounds.

Lysander gets 2 attacks, .75 hits, .625 wounds, .208 unsaved.

So, Lelith survives on average 5 rounds, doing 2.95 wounds. All things considered, in 5 rounds, 1 unsaved wound could go either way giving aproximately a 50/50 shot.

It's a bit more complicated. Lelith has an 79.2% chance of surviving 1 round. And, her chances of surviving 2 rounds is 62.7%.

By round 5, her chances of surviving is still 31.2%. And, even after 10 rounds, she's still alive 9.7% of the time.

For averaging: She'll be dead on round 3 about half the time. Her expected survival is 4.8 turns, but half the time, she'll be dead long before that.

She gets, on average, 38.5 attacks. She has a 5.2% chance of inflicting 0 wounds before death, 15.8% of inflicting 1, 23.3% of 2, 22.4% of 3, and only a 33.4% of inflicting 4 or more wounds.

So, Lelith only wins 33.4% of the time and Lysander wins 66.6% of the time.


Also, I have made some assumptions to make the math a bit simpler. I don't believe they will have a significant impact on Lelith's odds, but if a real statistician wants to correct me, please go ahead and let me know what I did wrong. Math is fun!

I have just finished painting Captain Lysander and am fielding him in my next Imp Fist game... the thread is filling me with confidence!

However,

Abaddon
Daemon Prince Slaanesh - Warp Time?
Typhus - Manreaper?
Bloodthirster - especially 'old no wings'
Hesperax?
Yarrick... because he'll get back up again and again and again! (maybe)

The next thread should be what ICs/SCs/MCs Lysander CAN kill 1 on 1

The list would be 8 pages long

Fafnir wrote:Grey Knight Grand Master, one unsaved wound and he's gone.

true...
hey- how about incubi?
Broodlord w/ genestealers might do it.
But lysander is my fave SC of all time.

Zonder wrote:TWC Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw/StormShield can do it as well... t5 means no ID from Lysanders str 8 hit, also has 3 wounds, can reroll to hit or to wound and has a 3+ invul...and has 5 attacks with counter-charge.

Actually, his hammer gives him S10...
fail

Miraclefish wrote:Swarmlord, Ghazkull, Marneus Calgar, Sanguinor, Mephiston, Nightbringer, Deciever or Abaddon all have a better than average chance.

Special mention goes out to the Grey Knight Grand Master for being the only un-named character who could whoop Lysander's yellow arse.

swarmlord- probably.
Ghazghkull- prob not. Yarrick beats him in my games.
Calgar- pfft. 4 attacks each, both ID'ing, but lysander has better invul.
Sanguinor- maybe (dunno the rules,but he seems to have the equivalent of 2 LCs in combat- the IF will survive and ID him.
Mephiston- no invulnerable.
Nightbringer- no. I had lyssander (alone) take out a scarab swarm, 20 'crons, 10 destroyers and THEN the nightbringer.
Abbaddon- no. I had abbaddon, kharn, and huron all lose to lysander's TH in one turn (apoc.)

GK's own. end of.

Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

A fully kitted Archon might be able to take him on, assuming he's already killed another MC or IC. Soul Trap, Djinn Blade, Combat Drugs and Shadowfield (Or might clone field actually be more useful in this case?)

Irdiumstern wrote:Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

He is not terrible. IMHO, he is the best SC for his points- gets up on a 3+?
Yes please!

Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:

Chapter Master
Librarian
Captain
Chaplain
Master of the Forge
Techmarine
Pedro
Vulkan
Shrike
Khan
Tigurus
Sicurus
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Furiso Dreadnought
Dante
Gabriel Seth
Tycho
Reshcarch (sp?)
Lemartes
Mepheston (ok maybe its 50/50)
BA Priest
SW Rune priest
Logan
Lukas
Non saga of the bear Wolf lord
Bjorn the fell handed
Belial
Sammual master of ravenwing
Azeral (sp?) chapter master of Dark angels
Grimaldus
BT Marshal
Emperors champion
Any chapter champion
Helbrecht‎
Kharn the betrayer
Choas Lord
Daemon Prince
Defiler
Choas Dreadnought
Necron Lord
Any Greater Daemon
Fateweaver
Bloodcrusher
Keeper of Secrets
Great unclean one
Wraithlord
war walker
eldar autarch
Farseer
DE archon
Hive Tyrant
Carnifex
Trygon
Mawloc
Tervigon
Commisar Yarrik
Strakken
IG priest
Nedogg
Marbo
Sentinal
Techpriest
Warboss
Deffdread/killa kan
wazdakka
snikrot
wierdboy
big mek

Yes, I am bored

shrike wrote:
Calgar- pfft. 4 attacks each, both ID'ing, but lysander has better invul.

Lysaner has 3 attacks, Calgar has 5 and Titanic Might.

shrike wrote:
Nightbringer- no. I had lyssander (alone) take out a scarab swarm, 20 'crons, 10 destroyers and THEN the nightbringer.
Abbaddon- no. I had abbaddon, kharn, and huron all lose to lysander's TH in one turn (apoc.)

Anecdotes aren't useful in any way. Also, it's not even possible for him to have killed Abaddon, Kharn, and Huron Blackheart in one turn.

Skulltaker on a Chariot--it'll take five turns and he'll probably die in the process but it's a net gain points-wise at 160 vs. 200.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:it's not even possible for him to have killed Abaddon, Kharn, and Huron Blackheart in one turn.

Abaddon has the EW rule--someone got robbed!

*shrugs* I've had abit of fun with my DP using gift of chaos on Lysaner, when somthing has a armour profile like that, the best possible thing to do is bypass it.

Or knock the mini off the table when your opponent isn't looking and blame those damn pesky freak warp-storms.

Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns
Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.625 unsaved, kills Nightbringer after 8 turns.

And, that's ignoring the Nightbringer's 24" S9 Ap2 gun.

So, the Nightbringer should own Lysander pretty easily.

shrike wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

He is not terrible. IMHO, he is the best SC for his points- gets up on a 3+?
Yes please!

Necron Lords can get back up, and they're actually useful for their points cost. Plus fully loaded for combat it will still come in cheaper than Yarrick. Yarrick hits at str 6 I1, with 3 attacks, which is pretty pathetic. If he manages to stagger back up, any passing infantry squad will kill him.

The only SC worse than him is the space pope.

Maybe some Hexrifles could fix Lysander. Or any of the other DE toys that require characteristic tests.

Grakmar wrote:Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns

That's 2.08 wounds per round from the Nightbringer. No saves of any kind are allowed against his attacks.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns

That's 2.08 wounds per round from the Nightbringer. No saves of any kind are allowed against his attacks.

Holy crap!

You think they would bold that sentence and not bury it in the middle of otherwise standard MC rules.

So, not only will the Nightbringer destroy Lysander, there's a pretty decent chance he'll do it without taking a wound!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe we should change this thread to be about the Nightbringer.

Can anything take that guy out in CC?

Grakmar wrote:
Maybe we should change this thread to be about the Nightbringer.

Can anything take that guy out in CC?

Mephiston
Swarmlord

Basically, things that go first, can wound, and cause instant death.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:*shrugs* I've had abit of fun with my DP using gift of chaos on Lysaner, when somthing has a armour profile like that, the best possible thing to do is bypass it.

Or knock the mini off the table when your opponent isn't looking and blame those damn pesky freak warp-storms.

Yup, one rune priest, 24 or less inches away, one JOTWW, one 5+ later and Lysander is falling down a pretty big hole. Why even risk letting him swing his hammer.

scubasteve04 wrote:Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:

Chapter Master
Librarian
Captain
Chaplain
Master of the Forge
Techmarine
Pedro
Vulkan
Shrike
Khan
Tigurus
Sicurus
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Furiso Dreadnought
Dante
Gabriel Seth
Tycho
Reshcarch (sp?)
Lemartes
Mepheston (ok maybe its 50/50)
BA Priest
SW Rune priest
Logan
Lukas
Non saga of the bear Wolf lord
Bjorn the fell handed
Belial
Sammual master of ravenwing
Azeral (sp?) chapter master of Dark angels
Grimaldus
BT Marshal
Emperors champion
Any chapter champion
Helbrecht‎
Kharn the betrayer
Choas Lord
Daemon Prince
Defiler
Choas Dreadnought
Necron Lord
Any Greater Daemon
Fateweaver
Bloodcrusher
Keeper of Secrets
Great unclean one
Wraithlord
war walker
eldar autarch
Farseer
DE archon
Hive Tyrant
Carnifex
Trygon
Mawloc
Tervigon
Commisar Yarrik
Strakken
IG priest
Nedogg
Marbo
Sentinal
Techpriest
Warboss
Deffdread/killa kan
wazdakka
snikrot
wierdboy
big mek

Yes, I am bored

You missed a bit.


Wait! Zogwort! He is the only 1-man-unit that can consistently kill lysander. If the ork player rolls higher than the SM player- poof. Lysander's a squig. Which then gets eaten by zogwort.