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Wow the op got into a super huge rage about scribd.
a couple weeks ago i used it to LOOK at the old rogue trader book
Is this book available for sale? absolutely not!
Can i find it for sale anywhere? not bloodly likely!
How else am i supposed to read it?
Anyways, I have a huge stack of codexes and i love to collect them for all the stories
But jumping down my throat for using this service to look at a book i have absolutely no feasible way to purchase...
That's just being a jerk. seriously.

If GW offered a "download our old codexes/ important white dwarf articles" service for fluff buffs, i would gladly pay for that! heck, GW could make a smack of money on it but they don't do it. they should do it, i'd buy it

Monster Rain wrote:If you steal, you are a boil on the ass of humanity.

And thus we begin this week's performance at Exaggeration Theatre...

The Dreadnote wrote:It's illegal for me to download films, music, and codices, and I don't think that's "wrong" either. I listen to music for free all the time, on the radio, in clubs, etc.
yourargumentisinvalid.jpg

Except music on the radio and in clubs isn't free - the radio station or club have paid to be able to play that music. You pay to go into the club or for drinks and that pays for the music. The radio station's advertisers pay the station and that pays for the music.

If you don't want to watch a film or read a codex then don't. If you do, why should you be able to do so without paying?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:Do anybody disagree with the notion that doing something illegal is wrong?

Actually, I do. There is a certain amount of discrepancy between what is legal and what is moral.

Having the benefit of someone else's work without compensating them (when they have made it blindingly obvious that they expect compensation for it) is not moral. There is no way of expressing that in order for it to become moral.

I don't feel that the "piracy isn't stealing because you're not taking anything away" argument is correct. The creator or owner of the IP that is being pirated has obvilously used more or less of his or her time to create the work that is being pirated. I'd therefore argue that it isn't the pirated items that are being stolen, but rather the time of the creator, which becomes less worth when people start taking things that were intended to generate revenue.

What I really don't understand is the entitlement attitude of people like deadnote and galactic defender.

If you feel something costs more than you're willing to pay then you do without it. It doesn't give you permission to obtain it without paying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'd therefore argue that it isn't the pirated items that are being stolen, but rather the time of the creator, which becomes less worth when people start taking things that were intended to generate revenue.

Exactly so. If I was charging people to listen to story telling (a legitimate profession not too long ago) and you listen to the story then walk off without paying that is not moral at all. It isn't stealing by the legal definition but it certainly isn't right.

Scott-S6 wrote:What I really don't understand is the entitlement attitude of people like deadnote and galactic defender.

Perhaps I'm just arrogant and amoral. Oh well, the world keeps turning.

All in all complaining about the cost of GW is a moot point. It is like complaining about the cost of a Ferrari and then to use that as justification to steal it? That argument makes absolutley no sense.

Also the whole pirating isn't stealing is a bogus argument as well. It's not yours, just because the internet allows you to steal it without being seen or caught doesn't make it legal no matter how you rationalize it is wrong.

The Dreadnote wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:What I really don't understand is the entitlement attitude of people like deadnote and galactic defender.

Perhaps I'm just arrogant and amoral. Oh well, the world keeps turning.

Yep, I guess so.

I do have fractionally more respect for the people that are willing to admit that it's amoral but do it anyway than I do for the people who make excuses. (it's too expensive, piracy doesn't really cost them anything, etc.)

Pael wrote:Also the whole pirating isn't stealing is a bogus argument as well. It's not yours, just because the internet allows you to steal it without being seen or caught doesn't make it legal no matter how you rationalize it is wrong.

If piracy and stealing are the same, why do we have different words for them? Oh that's right, because one is taking from somebody illegally, and the other is copying something illegally. I think we all recognise that piracy is illegal, we don't need to call it stealing just to get it through people's heads.

GW are Ferrari now?
Thought they were supposed to be Porsche, a metaphor devised by fanboys to make themselves feel so special.

I'm gonna throw this out there to the OP and ignore this rabble over what Piracy is.

I use Scribd, quite frequently. If there's a dex I want to look up, I'll go find it and read it. So what do I think is right and wrong?
- If I find the dex on Scribd and view it? Thats right to me, because I'm not taking it, only viewing content posted up by another user.
- What If I downloaded it? I'd say that was fine as well. I now have a constant reference for a dex that I can use for planning ahead for matches or making lists.
- What if I printed out said download and used it? No, this is wrong. This is the point where it becomes wrong because you cannot fully tell if the content is right or not. That and, in effect, it is stealing content. And I won't stand for printed copies of dexs...

edit: stupid speed typing errors...

I use scribd look up the codexes( ) that I don't own in order to have at least some idea of how the other armies work.

Man, I'm just a terrible person not supporting GW and going out to buy all the codexes and only actually use like 3 or 4 of them.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:codexes( )

Codices

I would like to see a Kindle or I Pad app that allows you access to ALL codices for a subscription fee of say £5 a month (that's about $7.50).

Tzeen you are going to hell for that!

How could you get the plural of codex so wrong!

I torrent codices all the time. I love 40k and Warhammer, but I dislike GW as a company. Not only are a great deal of their store staff annoying and relentless, but they are a company obsessed with upselling. Their staff and website are constantly trying to trick you into buying more than you need, things you don't need at all! Take one look at their website to get an idea. Also, the removal of the bits-part-store on the GW site has taken a huge chunk out of the hobby. They only removed it because it wasn't making enough profit. As a miniatures company they need to realise they're never going to make much money at all and stop trying to bleed us all at mad prices.

I actively do not buy from GW shops because I can get 20% off elsewhere. Not only that, but I try to buy second hand models and alternate company models wherever I can (simply because GW need to learn they cannot control their buyers, more people need to make a stand). Even so I give them near on £200 pounds a year in unavoidable expenses.

I own all the IA and Codices by torrenting them from the internet, I only buy codices I'm actually going to use on the table. I only do that because it's easier to hold than a wad of printed out sheets (and because I feel I'm cheating the owner of my FLGS).

I strongly feel that it isn't wrong to download GW codices when GW charges such astronomically high prices for them. And for all those who think Warhammer would die without GW, look at Necromunda (completely free!) and yet still going really, really strong. In my opinon, Warhammer might be better off without GW. Let it be open source, free to play and let the huge range of miniature companies out there sell their models instead. This would be a true rise of hobbyism, without GW's new corporate money-making obsession being forced upon us.

Oh my, oh my, oh my...

This thread is growing like a flu in the elementary school. Same bullsexcrement everywhere which I saw tribajilion x (2+31) times before. Well I like parties why should I neglect this one? I am also a fan of very picturesque comparisons. So why not throw a little more gunpowder in the fire anyway? Not that it is going to actually change ANYONES opinion.

I have created this imaginary chart of very very bad things in ascending order of evilness.

Meet Bob. Bob is famous writer and composer. Bob likes to write books and then he sells them to make money. Bob then buys food, water, peace and women for the money. Less money Bob has, well....you know.

1) I download Bobs book from the internet. I enjoy it without paying for it. I would not buy it anyway so Bobs monthly budget is okay.

2) I steal Bobs wallet in the market without notice. I enjoy the cash which I have gained from Bob. Drinks on me today- Bob is paying! I have gained but on Bobs detriment. If caught, I will be marked as a thief.

3) While on his daily evening walk in the park, I ambush Bob, punch him in the stomach, tear his lien, take his wallet and run away. Bob pays drinks again! Hower this time I became a robber.

4) Poor little Bob is returning home late from his office. I ambush him, tearing his intestines with a combat knife, take his wallet and run away. Noone really cares about money, for I am branded as a murderer.

5) I visit Bob in his house, cut his limbs, fashionize them all over the house in very creative maner, take his wallet of course and leave his house when finished. Noone really cares about me, Bob or his wallet. Everyone focuses on the brutality of my act itself.

You know there are many things you could do to poor Bob. Including them all in one word and claiming it as evil just does not fit. To become a thief - you have to actually STEAL anything from ANYONE.

World is not black or white...there are many, many, MANY shades of grey - and noone is perfect...unless youre jedi ofc.

I was always thinking, putting faith in mankinds average intellect, that noone, damn NOONE actually CAN believe counted financial damage done by the piracy. You cant expect people will buy everything they copy. Basic concept of piracy is that you copy something you would not buy anyway. Or you at least take a look on something BEFORE buying it. It does not include all cases at all ofc. Damage IS done, but in most cases - it is only moral one.

Hey, its not like I ate all the divine excrement of our lord to become omnipotent and all seeing master of the reality. But I can tell you this. I work like a manager in small company selling polymers to wide variety of customers. I come to contact with many people in very different social circles and I have plenty companies in my sector of care. I set prices for factories, give whine, calendars, pencils and much more as gifts to directors of those companies and factories - just trying to get along. I take care of almost everything what comes to your mind and let me tell you - crap is everywhere, noone has his hands clean, damn noone - rich or poor, symbol of morality - or strife. And then comes someone, telling how clean he is, how many experience he has - and how much others are lacking. Claiming how little pathetic thief you are by reading codex on the internet. This makes me want to laugh off my backside from my mouth. Hey I mean- I am not THAT experienced...but in comparison to someone?

Finally I will get to the point. I will look strangely at the dude using printed scribd codex during the game. But the dude has his reasons so I will try to be tolerant. Lets hope he comes to his senses and will eventually buy it soon - if it will be alowed by his financial situation. Give peace to your brothers and sisters and smite only those who bestow their aggressiveness upon you.

You are my favourite person for today.

''oh no GW stuff costs money, so i'm gonna download it for free'

Man up, everything costs something and always has done, if you don't want to pay, you go without.

BluntmanDC wrote:Man up, everything costs something and always has done, if you don't want to pay, you go TO HELL! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!

This is how I heard that in my head.

Theft and second party purchases are two completely different things. You can't realistically equate downloading a Codex as being the same thing as buying a used Codex from eBay.

What if the seller was fencing stolen goods?

The Dreadnote wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Man up, everything costs something and always has done, if you don't want to pay, you go TO HELL! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!

This is how I heard that in my head.

i'm agnostic i don't believe in hell, i do however think people who commit piracy are for the most part think they deserve everything for nothing.

I am delighted to see that there are so many pure souls on Dakka who have ne'er stained their lilywhites with the slightest misdemeaner.

Doh you blotched your copy books, if you will forgive the mixing of metaphors, by tarnishing others with the same brush and being prejudicial.

to be totally frank I have downloaded a pdf or 2. Quelle horreur!
If you seriously think that I am going to stump up for a codicex just to check a couple of things then go stick your head in your wallet and talk to the queen/whoever is on the notes in your neck of the woods.
Do I have hard copies of my army's books why yes sir indeed I do.
Would I ever buy those army books I downloaded? Only if I start the army.

I downloaded Sw/DE 2nd ed/Dwarf/O&G books to see if I liked before purchasing.
Ooo I am soo naughty!

Please stop the hard and fast cut and dried black and white moralising.

B-b-b-but Chibiiii.....it's illeeeegal!

Cantus wrote:But what makes pirating a codex any worse than scratch-building your own leman russ? Why is it worse to pirate a codex than to share a codex with your friend? You're using GW's intellectual property without paying them. You're not taking anything away from anyone other than hypothetical profits. There's no difference, but for some reason pirating is frowned upon.

you're thinking too small scale man, you gotta think big. sure, in an induvidual case one person might never have bought a particular product so theoretically there's no loss on the makers side. but is that the case with EVERYONE? unless you know positively that not a single creator is out of pocket then there's no problem. but there is a problem and we all know it. I could go on and on but there are plenty of threads on the internet that deal with this...

also, making your own Leman Russ is respectable becasue people can tell how much effort you went into making it (not including the lazy constructs of course).

Cantus wrote:As for the morality of pirating, morality is a social concept that I feel no obligation to pretend exists as anything other than "I won't kill you so please don't kill me." Maybe I'm a pariah for my views, but whatever.

uhh, social concepts are part of living in a society
some people don't like some laws becasue they're stupid and think they shouldn't need to follow them. don't worry though, there are other places that you can go to where an entire society won't care, but you likely wouldn't want to spend the rest of your life there, eh?

besides, GW doesn't want you to Pirate it, they put some work into it and deserve whatever they charge, or maybe you're one of those people who hate high end fashion people and how they slap rediculous price tags on thier sunglasses, jeans and stuff.

Dracos wrote:Not really. Am I stealing a codex by looking through my friends copy?

That's where this breaks down. Downloading a copied version of a Codex is more akin to looking through a friend's copy than taking one out of the store without paying for it. If I want to own the codex, I'll buy it. If I just want to look through it, I'll either look through one owned by a friend, at the store, or download one.

except your friend bought the codex and you're not keeping it, that sounds like a pretty big difference to me. it's good for someone when money moves, downloading is just plain selfish, no ifs, and or buts about it. or is there mate?

ChrisCP wrote:LGS do not make money from selling models - how dare you suggest such a thing!
Where's a point for 'it's GWs game - hand off' against 'I just want to play a game'?

my favorite point in such debates

Mattieau wrote:The only loser in this situation is the production company who charges exorbitantly, forcing Tom into either piracy or stealing in either situation.

or Tom could just not watch the movie, does he have to see the movie? though to be fair, I suppose the advertisers try to make Tom think that he does have to see it haha.

Jolrael wrote:Oh my, oh my, oh my...

World is not black or white...there are many, many, MANY shades of grey - and noone is perfect...unless youre jedi ofc.

I was always thinking, putting faith in mankinds average intellect, that noone, damn NOONE actually CAN believe counted financial damage done by the piracy. You cant expect people will buy everything they copy. Basic concept of piracy is that you copy something you would not buy anyway. Or you at least take a look on something BEFORE buying it. It does not include all cases at all ofc. Damage IS done, but in most cases - it is only moral one.

Hey, its not like I ate all the divine excrement of our lord to become omnipotent and all seeing master of the reality. But I can tell you this. I work like a manager in small company selling polymers to wide variety of customers. I come to contact with many people in very different social circles and I have plenty companies in my sector of care. I set prices for factories, give whine, calendars, pencils and much more as gifts to directors of those companies and factories - just trying to get along. I take care of almost everything what comes to your mind and let me tell you - crap is everywhere, noone has his hands clean, damn noone - rich or poor, symbol of morality - or strife. And then comes someone, telling how clean he is, how many experience he has - and how much others are lacking. Claiming how little pathetic thief you are by reading codex on the internet. This makes me want to laugh off my backside from my mouth. Hey I mean- I am not THAT experienced...but in comparison to someone?

Finally I will get to the point. I will look strangely at the dude using printed scribd codex during the game. But the dude has his reasons so I will try to be tolerant. Lets hope he comes to his senses and will eventually buy it soon - if it will be alowed by his financial situation. Give peace to your brothers and sisters and smite only those who bestow their aggressiveness upon you.

but thier moral standings directly oppose miiiine~

*cough* yes, I usually say (in the real world) that as long as a person doesn't conflict with other people then it's fine. but stealing becasue they know they can get away with it? *shrugs* I've lied and stolen for justice (to give a kid his Yu-Gi-Oh cards back) and I will tell you that my fervent lecturing got a chronic downloader to stop almost entirely (he still downloads music) and some other people to tone it down (another only download Anime when he knows it's not in English) so trying to change person and 'save thier soul' isn't a completly hopeless endeavor and is worth the breath I use.

The Dreadnote wrote:At the end of the day, people who want to pay for a product will pay for it and those who don't will not. There are plenty of legal means to see/hear/read things for free, and the only difference is that the illegal methods are more convenient. I don't believe that makes them "wrong" or "immoral" - and to those that would say "well they are", I don't believe in absolute morality either.

really? that's the ONLY difference? I suppose it is when you're the one downloading and don't think a single step further than that.

I have some questions for you lot;

can any of you say that there aren't plenty of people who do it simply out of greed, thus, DO lower the profits of workers?

you all know that every single employee of GW in every single section in countries all over the world need to get paid wages by Games Workshop right? you might see $5 of plastic by how much do the employees get paid to make all this work? do you know the ludicrous amount of cash it takes to pay just a years salary for all their workers?

thier casts aren't made in a day, it's a long design process, thier boxes aren't shipped for free, thier factories aren't fully automated complexes controlled by an advanced Artificial Intellegence (or so I assume) and this doesn't happen in just one place, or do you think that isn't enough justification to charge a lot more than a bucket of plastics worth?

sorry for reapeating some things in the one post...

I want the last five minutes of my life back.

I think that people growing their own food are immoral. I work hard to get people their Big Macs, and these bastards are sat at home eating vegetables. I need to get my wages too, and if there's nobody in the restaurant, there's no need for me to work.

The Dreadnote wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:codexes( )

Codices

Actually, GW says that it's codexes.

Well there you go





Codexes must be incorrect.