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Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.

What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.

In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.

I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

Because a lot of space is just as expensive to rent here as what you (I think) posted earlier in the thread for renting where you are. Even afternoon rentals are pretty prohibitive when you add in insurance costs (which every place charges), and table rentals.

/sigh

Gaming stores are a business. They do not exist for your convience. They should all charge a small fee for you to use their facilities. It is obvious that most of you do not realize that selling GW products is not a profitable business by any means. The only reason stores in SA are able to stay open is because they make loads of money buy selling crap like Magic.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.

What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.

In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.

I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

In a word, laziness. It would be too difficult to round up enough people interested in renting a space once a week or whenever and then working around everyone's busy home/work lifes. Much easier to walk into a game store and see if there's anyone up for a game or two.

My case, I have just one friend that plays tabletop gaming so it's either meet him at a store or go to the store when he's busy to play against someone else.

Community space is usually pretty cheap around here and heck, even the local library has space for a minimal charge...it'd just be a matter of arranging the whole thing which is daunting when I'm a cat-herder all through the week as my regular job.

It's just something that you have to grow into, I guess. Realizing that heat/ac, lights, water and retail space cost money and that you aren't entitled to playing in a place just because you own an army.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Space can easily be found elsewhere to play.

A reliable shop can't be.

I understand the logic that your local shop will die out if you don't buy stuff there.
What I don't get is why Americans seem to want to play in shops rather than in clubs.
In this kind of case, the shop is providing tables and better terrain than a lot of clubs would have. IMO he is practically operating as a club and deserves to charge for membership.
I haven't got anything against shops. I just think they are for buying stuff in, rather than playing games.

Again, it comes down to an issue of space and venue.

Most people in America don't actually own a house themselves. They rent apartments, either by themselves or with roommates.
It also doesn't help any if you're a college student and live in a dorm(because, again: space and shared living quarters).

There's very little venues that you can take over long enough to have a "club" meet in either situation, especially considering setting up the tables and the other time consuming parts.

But I've always figured that another part of it is psychological, even if the players don't realize it themselves. Being a nerd isn't really "mainstream". So, you can hide it by going to a private venue intended for that specific purpose(and considering most FLGSes are tucked away in out of the way places...it's a good hiding spot ).

Add in the fact that very few of these FLGSes open up exclusively to make money, but instead as a way for the owner to get to provide people access to something that the owner enjoys...and you get a positive atmosphere with a large amount of stores going out of their way to make it feel like a home away from home when you're playing there.

brettz123 wrote:And by your own logic 20% is even better...

It is, but I think you have to factor in shipping and handling costs, much of the discount is offset by that.

Look, I'm all for selling online - I'm doing it myself, but the difference between buying locally at 10%, and buying at 30% off less shipping may not come to much.

Of course, all this is grossly simplifying the situation.

We all like to get "a deal", but I think people take their FLGS for granted at their peril.

agnosto wrote:
In a word, laziness. It would be too difficult to round up enough people interested in renting a space once a week or whenever and then working around everyone's busy home/work lifes. Much easier to walk into a game store and see if there's anyone up for a game or two.
My case, I have just one friend that plays tabletop gaming so it's either meet him at a store or go to the store when he's busy to play against someone else.
Community space is usually pretty cheap around here and heck, even the local library has space for a minimal charge...it'd just be a matter of arranging the whole thing which is daunting when I'm a cat-herder all through the week as my regular job.

Maybe laziness is part of it, but most shops very rarely have pick up action going on. Almost every FLGS I know of has a website with a forum where people arrange games and leagues.

Hell, anyone who comes into Hangar 18 gets a flyer that points them towards our website, along with a list of scheduled events and contact information for the "organizers" of the leagues.

"Community space", by the way, doesn't mean diddly to someone who lives a half hour or more away from where the space is rented and gets a subpar experience because X who was bringing Y piece of terrain didn't show up, etc or any number of the potential snafus that could happen in that case.

Having a shop that's fully stocked with terrain, tables, and is in a centralized location pays dividends for that same player though.

One of the FLGSs near me has a a non-fee pay-to-play policy. First time is a free pass but after that, they ask that you spend a few bucks (I forget the actual amount) if you're going to play there. Since it's only a few bucks and you'll probably be there for a few hours, you can cover the required amount just by buying drinks/snacks. If you plan on picking up even a single blister or a few pots of paint, you're more than covered. All the better for them if you're buying a unit box.

Tournies that they run either have an entry fee which goes to prize support, are charity events where the entry fee is a donation (money for breast cancer groups, canned food, etc.), or are day-long special events (apoc. mega battles and the like) with raffle tickets for prizes/store credit and open gaming if you buy at least one.

Pretty reasonable, if you ask me. Guarantees a bit of cash flow on their end without extorting the customers.

We actually get a pretty solid run of pick up games. Count myself lucky in that matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
derek you are right. we are all humans and make errors. the fact that i didnt really go over my wording really careful was a error on my part. knowing some players will look into every wording I should have corrected it. being me I didnt think much of it. so i let it sit thinking i didnt write it poorly when in fact i did. Live and learn. I dont consider myself a jerk but i could see after looking it over again that it could be considered that way. i still think he should have called me or pm'd me first and said hey what gives. hopefully it is cleared up now

chrispryor wrote:warboss you are right. I posted in response to i guess make sure it didnt?

bretz123 i am not trying to get extra money to stay afloat or anything i am just wantng to just the expense spent on tables for this member thing. even then it doesnt cover it as i intend on contributing more eother way no biggie. this member thing was actually the idea of several customers. they wanted even better tables than we already have. in order to achieve it i was looking into member programs. I am not on a high horse so to speak. as you can tell i am trying to explain it all. i think if i were on a high horse trying to upset people i would not even be on here. anyway it is always hard to explain on the net.

I'm glad to hear it isn't to stay afloat because I don't think that would work. It is now obvious that it was more to my second point which was getting rid of people who are keeping your paying customers from playing games. I think that is not only a good idea but one that will make you money in the long run.

My only suggestion is that you should always take the high road even when you are just plain tired of peoples stupid crap. A lot of people will get information about this from forums like this and may never hear your side of the story so it is always best to just stay calm even when dealing with people who to put it mildly may be annoying you.

Anyway your boards look sweet and I hope things work out for you. Your is the kind of store that not only do I wish I had near me but is a credit to the hobby. Keep up the good work.

This a a tough call, and it is the owners call at that. I personally think every person who plays at a place is a potential customer. They may be limiting their pool of customers by doing this. Keeping a customer and making new ones are different things. I feel (warning...opinions may vary) this may slow their new player growth. I play at 2 places, and buy at those 2 places. I am lucky enough to have 5 gaming stores all with in the same distance from where I live. The way it sounds here is if I move to the area where this gaming store is I am not welcome to play there as I have not bought an army there. (edit2 I see you have already stated you may have worded your statement not to the best of your abilities, and this is an example, too bad we can't take back bullets once they are shot! It is always best to have a second person check over the "tone" or an email etc if it is important.)This has a negative affect on the community in my opinion.

I do not agree with everything the owner of the store the OP has wrote about said, but I do see where he is coming from. It is not like you need to buy models weekly due to the old ones getting used up or rotating out. Hobby shops are hard to keep in the black, one good month may need to pay for several bad ones. His investment needs some protection. I have seen tables get rough treatment, and have seen people asked not to play as a result. Neither place I play at charges for use, one does have a membership that gives benefits for being a member such as discounts etc. In my case though, there is much competition and stores have tried to charge for things before and lost due to this. This may not be the case here as the competition may be miles behind them in quality as well as distance.

Edit

I just saw the store owner has posted above me a few times. Apologies, I didn't see that. Well, you can see above my 2 cents ( I am not in your area just voicing my opinion.)

Jroc actually that isn't the case. U would simply be new to us. So say you moved here armies in tow. No biggie. U then decide to make this ur store to play and support then cool. If after playing here you felt no thanks then np either as this is ur choice as well. If you play here all the time and have zero support then it is different. Funny thing is support is general nad I feel it is good in many ways. It could be as simple as you played with another new person and they loved it so much they bought in to the game . Then in that sense you support hobby and us. It could be tourney onyl thing where you only come up for them no biggie again. Or leagues campaigns whatever. My thing was like you said. If they provide nothing in anyway except to take up space and be a blight to this community then we can't afford to have them in due to the fact I need to maintain a happy medium with our customers who do.

Glad to see posts from the owner and a bunch of the local guys, as well as those great pics of the sweet terrain!

Chris, please feel free to promote your store and events on the site!

-Make sure you're listed in our Store Locator (or update the entry if it's incomplete).
-Feel free to post pictures of your terrain and tables in our Gallery and/or Articles sections
-Feel free to post about upcoming tournaments in our Tournament Forum.

That kind of stuff is useful to gamers. If you get some more customers out of it, so much the better!

If you want to run advertisements you can do that too; check out Services.

---------------------------------------

In regards to tone and what you wrote, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for your average gamer. But coming from a business owner, it did come off a bit unprofessional.

A lot of shop owners have to learn this; the importance of being professional and an ambassador for their store (and to some extent the hobby) when posting anything online.

Best regards and best wishes for your store's success.

I think the lesson learned here is as a store owner, you need to be real careful of what you post on an internet forum. Or for that matter what you post in your store. I understand a bit about professionalism in business and to be honest the words you used should have been chosen more carefully. You could be the nicest person in the world and use poorly chosen language and come off as a jerk. For example claiming that people that buy drinks and snacks are not your customers is wrong. It's true they aren't your "elite" customers but they have spent money and are your customers. Also by driving them away, you guarantee that they will never become an elite customer. Maybe they grow up one day, or if you educate them they may change their minds or habits. It seems to me that you need to think long term.

To the pay to play question...Of course there is a right to do that, however I'm not sure if it is always the wisest choice. Your elite customers will always pay the cover fee, but again driving your slackers away seems counter intuitive.

Keep in mind I'm looking at this purely from a business standpoint, not from a moral standpoint.

GG

To make the most money a store doesn't charge for tables fees.

1. More sales = More profit.
2. People in the store provide the opportunity for more sales.
3. Nice tables and terrain bring in more gamers.
4. Charging for table usage brings in less gamers.
5. Charging puts the the store in an adversarial role as a tax collector.
6. There are other ways of dealing with parasites than by charging.

Therefore, if I want to maximize profit, I should make sure I have good tables and scenery, and not charge for useage.

So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you. And get a lot more than if I was chasing after some hourly fee.

mikhaila wrote:

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you.

No thanks, I'll avoid that. Luckily I don't worry about my LFGS trying to do that to me. I'm not so good on the hard close. Best of luck with the others

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

My local store tried this out for a little while. For $20 a month, you'd have access to "better" terrain, special tournaments, twice a year discounts, and on weekends the store would stay open a few hours later for members only.

Started out with pretty big numbers, but after a few months people just stopped paying, and eventually it went defunct.

It was entirely optional though. There was still tables and terrain for use for non-members. The money we paid didn't go to the store as well. It went to pay for that special terrain, tournament prizes, etc...

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

... and I'll do my best to shake every last dollar out of you.

No thanks, I'll avoid that. Luckily I don't worry about my LFGS trying to do that to me. I'm not so good on the hard close. Best of luck with the others

Don't have to worry about it in mine either. I don't bother. Hard sell is too much work. I just try to stock the store with what people need/want and try to get them to come in as much as possible to be tempted by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Odominus wrote:[

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say I am still surprised that US gamers are so centred on stores. I would have thought with your big homes, and lots of church halls, space could easily be found elsewhere.

Are you being serious?

mikhaila wrote:
Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Well paint costs money (unless you are foraging for the components and raw product and homaking the paints yourself of course). So paint has value.

If you are giving away something of value for free, would it be unreasonable for you to also be giving other items of value away such as a blister? And if I have the owner's permission to leave with an item for free, it isn't shoplifting. Sheesh

My turn.

I play at the store. I don't play what I consider regularly, only twice a month not including tourneys. I have a pretty demanding job and a healthy home life with my family, so I just don't devote the time that many hardcore gamers do. However, I understand what a special place the store is.

It is a great place to play that isn't my basement. I grew up playing in garages and basements. That sucks to have that as your only option. This store provides new players, armies and terrain on a regular basis. Chris has multiple organized events throughout the year(Some for charity and at a cost to him!), and always has a couple hundred dollars worth of prize support. He will order anything you need, but he doesn't shove crap down your throat about buying stuff when you are there. He has a room dedicated to terrain which most people take for granted and leave in a mess. He has a full range of GW stuff, as well as lots of other mini-war-gaming tools and supplies. He stocks and custom orders Battle Foam at nearly cost to him(Literally, he almost takes a hit off this stuff and still provides it.) He and his staff, all genuinly promote the game and the community and whatever your army interests are.

As he said, he asked his community about what we thought about this idea. I want you to read that again, because he said that in an earlier post and still took a couple of shots about his approach. He was speaking to us, we all know each other. We are all adults who know what he is talking about. He used his store forums to communicate to his gaming community. Yeah his grammar and typing may be sublevel but the message was a question, a proposal, not some law of the land.

Tools have come in with an old army, sold it cheap to new players that would have otherwise bought from chris(thus undercutting him) and taken that money to ebay or online to save 10%, which if you build a 500 dollar army is a big fat 50 bucks....

The buying-online doesn't mean that you can't buy anything online and use it in the store. I ordered lots of stuff from FW for Xmas(I buy all my GW stuff from the store). I'm going to plop it down on Chris's killer tables and he will be just as excited about the awesome figs as I am. We may play a game and he'll decimate my new figs... if he doesn't one of the other players will. I've been up to the store one time in 3 years that I couldn't get a game up.

I doubt I will play more than twice a month in 2011 and I will still pay 10, 20 or 50 bucks a month and whether I play on those sweet ass tables or not is not important. It may be a perk, but the store is such a BA place without those tables, to me it's moot. I would gladly pay to play without anything other than the game as my return.

MM

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
So feel invited to come play a game for free, use my paints for free, take part in free leagues and classes...

If you are giving away your paint for free, would you mind if I walked out with a few free blisters? hehe

He's not saying "I'll give you a brand new, unopened pot of paint that you can take home with you".

Mikhaila likely has pots of paints that are purchased, by him, for exclusive usage of the store patrons.

Kanluwen wrote:
He's not saying "I'll give you a brand new, unopened pot of paint that you can take home with you".

He did not say that. Hence my polite question.

Kanluwen wrote:"Mikhaila likely has pots of paints that are purchased, by him, for exclusive usage of the store patrons.

Would I be allowed to paint my 3k Skaven army on the store's dime?

Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Somehow not seeing how offering free paint and painting classes would lead someone to think that I didn't mind them shoplifting.

Well paint costs money (unless you are foraging for the components and raw product and homaking the paints yourself of course). So paint has value.

If you are giving away something of value for free, would it be unreasonable for you to also be giving other items of value away such as a blister? And if I have the owner's permission to leave with an item for free, it isn't shoplifting. Sheesh

it's quite amazing that any sane person could make the connections you have, so I'll assume you're just trolling. But just in case you are slow, I'll explain it.

1. We offer free painting classes, and provide all the materials. This is a service provided by the store to help new players learn how to paint. It helps them get armies ready for tournaments, and learn a skill that will let them enjoy the hobby of playing with toy soldiers more.

2. Giving you free blisters, and then having to do it for every other person that somehow equates a painting class with free product would mean I'd be out of business in about a week.

So actually, it's two quite different things. You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion. Sort of the way air is free, but beer isn't, yet both are made up of molecules.

Beer should be free......

*mutter, mutter, mutter*

Odominus wrote:
Would I be allowed to paint my 3k Skaven army on the store's dime?

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it, and help learning how to do it. Whether you ever accomplished the task would be up to you.
But quite a few people come in and paint every weekend, working on an army, and then get a few games in.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Beer should be free......

*mutter, mutter, mutter*

Agreed on that one.

Paying to play is standard in the FLGS I played in in Dublin, and I was happy to pay because it meant I had somewhere to do it!

When/If I join a club here in the UK I'll haveta pay too, and I don't mind that. Rent is expensive!

Beer can be close to free if you brew your own!

mikhaila wrote:You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion.

I never came to a conclusion. I asked a legitimate question and you called me a troller. Really? I have never heard of this business model.

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it

Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

It's a pretty standard business model. Most companies/stores have some semblance of this. Something that either costs them money or that they break even on but that generates long term sales growth. Much like he is doing. Now if you weren't aware of that then cool. But since I find that hard to believe I can see why he'd think you were a troll.

Odominus wrote:Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

I read some of your other posts. You seem intelligent, and nowhere near as dense as you seem to be acting in this thread. Hence my assumption that you're trolling. But lets pretend you really are having trouble following the difference between offering a painting class, and giving away blisters for nothing, and I'll politely answer the question.

The answer is : No, you can't have some free blisters.

Now you have the information that you needed. Let me know when you're coming up to do that 3000 pts in skaven, I'll make sure everything is ready for you.