Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

stalkerzero wrote:
I really think there needs to be a less expensive way to get a semi-competitive army of each race in 40k to a decent lower point value tournament quantity/quality.

Yes...whilst AoBR is a good deal, it's only for two armies. Some of the Battleforces really ought to be bit more generous, and with better unit selection.

They won't reduce price; that would devalue their product

but they may halt price rises to allow inflation to catch up


.... on a cold day in hell

kharn-the-betrayer wrote:I am only 13, I wish my parents would buy me 40k stuff, I have to find the money for it myself.

I started playing when I was 11, back in 1991 and I started playing Epic first. One of my neighbors had it and we stayed up late one summer night playing it. I don't think I bought my first models until I was 12, but played it when I was 11. I mowed my lawn, my neighbors lawns, my extended families lawns and did a paper route over the summer. I think 90% of my pay that first summer went to GW. Epic was pretty cheap though compared to 40K and Fantasy.

I started 40k in September. Two of my friends are still kind of stuck at 1000 points because to build much past that (and semi-competitive) will cost them another $300+. That's a tough chunk to swallow when you already just spend $200-300 for your initial army. Sure you can play at 1,000 points for a long while and have fun. But when you want to expand beyond your friendly play group and head to that store it can be like pulling teeth to get vets to play 1,000 points. For them there's more of a point to play a higher point game - they get to use more of their models and they get practice in with army lists and point values that are more common for tournaments.

Depends on how you look at it. From an overall cost of ownership, war gaming is a cheap hobby compared to some. You want to get into video games. Consoles run you $300 and a PC will run you $600, and the PC can scale up to a lot more than that if you got super high end. Then add in software costs, upgrade costs, maintenance costs, etc. You are an audiophile....man, you know how much custom speakers cost? You rebuild cars, well that can cost 10s of thousands.

I think I probably have near $1000 invested in my life time. Including what I bought back in the day and what I just bought recently and recently I spent $400, so the rest of my stuff was $600 total. Of course I did get some stuff as gifts, and I did also trade stuff to get more models. Heck I have an Ork army in 40K only because I own orks from like 4 different boxed sets that I never got rid of or traded over the years. I never once actually purchased an Ork 40K item.

My models sat in my parent's basement for 15 years. 5 months ago I was having a beer with my buddy and asked him if he had his 40k stuff. I had been playing a lot of Starcraft II and it made me want to play 40K. He said maybe, so we both went back to our parent's homes and dug all of our models out of the basement. I ran to the hobby store and bought a copy of 5th edition 40K. We played a game next week and I had only invested money in the new rules. I used all my old models from back in the day. The models don't become obsolete for the most part and you can use them forever basically. Some models do become obsolete like Chaows Dwarves, RIP, and some of my old Rogue Trader stuff.

I have a lot of hobbies, and war gaming is probably the cheapest overall. Now I am older and have a decent job so dropping a few hundred dollars on something every now and then is OK for me. I also live cheap though too, to enable this life style. Looking at the boxed sets, I think they are reasonably priced. Looked at the individual models, like special characters, monsters, tanks and vehicles, and such, I think those are over priced. In fact as far as I can tell, the Rhino is still the same tank it was 15 years ago, except I think you could buy them for $15 back then. Otherwise the new dreadnoughts, predators, and land raiders do definitely look a lot different and a lot cooler.

Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

There's also the fact that you'll need 2-3 Marine squads to play a full sized game of 40k, while in Warmachine/Hordes duplicates are really only seen in Solos (Stormsmith Stormcallers with eNemo, for example).

I am 41 years old.

I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.

Evil empire?

Come to think of it EVERYTHING I like, buy, eat, wear has gotten increasingly more exspensive during my lifetime.

Stange...

Plastic model kits in general have been priced way out of their target markets reach for quite some time now.

Used to be that all the major chain stores that carried toys had model kits as well. The prices for the kits have increased exponentially since the late '70s, far outpacing the rate of inflation.

Coca cola
evil empire?

durr!

Chose the wrong company as an analogy there CT

The problem citing things like that is that everything as gone up in price in the past 40 years.

Cola is still relatively cheap
We are talking about price rises beyond inflation with GW.
Look at the example of the Ork Boyz box I cited earlier.
How many of the products you are talking about have halved in quantity for the same price overnight?
How is that behaviour defensible?
Eviil empire is an overstatement but I sure as heck understand why people feel that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do people buy computers soley as gaming platforms?
I got one for other purposes and gaming was an additional use

Have never bought more than a couple of games at full price when I first had the PC. I usually wait for the game to drop down into the discounted racks now.

The "gaming is an inexpensive hobby" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. It is more about the individual justifying their expenditure to themselves rather than an objective statement of fact.

So the company is going to move production to asia? If that happens (and a part of me sadly acknowledged this was a foregone conclusion the moment that the company went public) then really that's going to be it for me with this company.

I think like many have been saying on this thread, really it's the inherent contradictions at the heart of the marketing strategy of the company which are the problem.

CT GAMER wrote:I am 41 years old.

I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.

Yes, but would you still drink coca cola if it was today $5 a 12 ounce can. Or $10?

Thats the equivilant.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:...Do people buy computers soley as gaming platforms?
I got one for other purposes and gaming was an additional use

Have never bought more than a couple of games at full price when I first had the PC. I usually wait for the game to drop down into the discounted racks now.

The "gaming is an inexpensive hobby" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. It is more about the individual justifying their expenditure to themselves rather than an objective statement of fact.

Oh yes. I work in IT for a living and some of the people I have worked with in the past drop $2000 into their rigs for gaming. They over clock and do liquid cooling, solid state drives, SLI or xfire with 2 high end video cards, and so forth. I find it hilarious when they drop 12gig of RAM in their PCs since 99% of games are 32bit applications.

I think the gaming isn't an expensive hobby does hold merit when talking about war gaming. It is something you can shelf and always come back to. There is a lot of socialization with the hobby. Hanging out with friends, playing a game or two, and so forth. There is also the sense of accomplishment. Painting a model and it looks awesome. Doing a sweet conversion, or whatever else like mounting an epic victory from early losses. If you look at total cost versus time spent having fun, it is very cheap compared to some. Also, when you go buy a $60 video game and beat it in 5 days you then trade it in or sell it or whatever. Not many video games have replay value. War gaming has tons of replay value. All my money invested over a large span of time and all my old models still play like the new ones do. I admit that the old second edition plastic space marines look like crap compared to the new models, but hey they still play.

So the company is going to move production to asia? If that happens (and a part of me sadly acknowledged this was a foregone conclusion the moment that the company went public) then really that's going to be it for me with this company.

That is just a rumor I heard, I have no proof. Do not take it as the gospel. However, all the global economy shifts, and their model of getting rid of blisters and going to boxed sets for everything sort of makes me want to believe it.

Personally I wouldn't drink that sugary pisswasser at any price

Dandilion and Burdock FTW!!!

Captain Shrike wrote:If GW cant lower prices, then they need to raise quality (I know that has been said. Because other games have MUCH higher detail for the same price.:

Kind of a poor comparison, I think.

Aside from the space marine kit being over a decade old it still offers a wealth of options and customization that those 5 one pose dawnguard + 5 duplicates can't really touch. Yes, I realize that skilled modeller could make those dawnguard all more unique, but in terms of sheer variety and possibilities straight out of the box, the space marine kit is head and shoulders above. To me that makes the Tac box an ever greater value. Tastes vary of course.

If anything it proves that PP, depsite getting alot of things right (steady release schedule, community support, tighter rules etc.) believes in GWs business model, as their prices are right up there with geedub. I guess PP get a free pass from pricing complaint threads because less models are needed and because they get some important things right. Which is fair, I suppose.

And in terms of raising quality, aside from a few notables (Razorgor, Minotaurs and probably a few others that I can't recall) I'd say damn near all of what GW has released in the past few years is the best they've ever done, in terms of both scuplting quality and customization options.

spaceelf wrote: Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.

Please dont talk balls.

I knew loads of players with 25mm/28mm armies 15 years ago. Dont talk about something you clearly know little of.

The late 80s and 90s were the 'boom' time for 25mm/28mm historical metals.

Games Workshop's product (Wargaming Minatures) appear to be generally price inelastic. However, according to Microeconomics (or at least my economics teacher), Price Elasticity changes depending on pricing. As price increases, price elasticity follows suit. So, a box that is price inelastic at $20 a box may become price elastic at $30. Just some food for thought. (/Economics Lecture)

sourclams wrote:GW is a publicly traded equity (ticker GAW) and I would strongly advise against buying their stock. Please, before laying your money on the line discuss your investment goals with a professional.

All well and good to thump our chests and spew opinions on the forums, but that should have 0 impact on how you allocate your capital.

I only want some because I like there product not as a nest egg.

Then put your money in the product?

Alternatively if you want someone to look after some spare cash with little/no return I would willingly accept it as an interest free loan and guarantee you will be repaid at the end of the term.

Which is a safer investment than just giving it over to GW

Big P wrote:

spaceelf wrote: Fifteen years ago very few people played historicals at 28mm scale because of the cost, and now it is much cheaper than it was then.

Please dont talk balls.

I knew loads of players with 25mm/28mm armies 15 years ago. Dont talk about something you clearly know little of.

The late 80s and 90s were the 'boom' time for 25mm/28mm historical metals.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it's a good idea to check the country of the poster you're disagreeing with. There's differences between what's popular in Europe and North America.

30 years ago historical 25mm/28mm figures were 20p each and Citadel’s generic fantasy figures were 25p.

25mm historicals weren’t cheap but they weren’t prohibitively expensive. I have two 25mm armies built in the mid to late 80s. Obviously you could buy more armies in 15mm, and they saved space on the tabletop, so a lot of people used 15mm (and still do). I have a number of 15mm armies too. I live in the UK.

Nowadays, historical metal figures are about £1 to £1.50. Citadel 40K metal figures are a minimum of £2.50. GW’s cheapest plastic figures are about £1.20 each. Historical plastic figures are about 35 to 40p each.

I don’t think there is any doubt that GW prices have been rising faster than historical.

I sometimes think about GW closing up shop, leaving years of work and fun to slowly rot away into obscurity. I don't like to think of that. But conversely, the prices they are charging almost justifies this hypothetical situtation. I wish for a price decrease, but I know that will not happen. I wish for prices to remain as they are, but inflation rolls ever onwards. Is keeping this company alive worth it? I don't know.

mikhaila wrote:Most of my Malifaux players have bought 3-6 different gangs and a bunch of blisters to go with them, both books, decks to match each gang, and some then get the Battlefoam bag to pack it all. So while you can play with just 10 models, no one stops there.) Same with Warmahordes, which is a much more front end loaded business plan than GW. Sure, you could buy the starter box. And 10 minutes later when you've been beaten 3 times, you'll be scrambling for some more models.) My average PP customer spends MORE than my average GW customer..

Its a much more compulsive business model...you can buy the starter for PP and have a bit of fun and then from there with 200 or so euros you have a fully playable fun competitive list... have a bit of fun with it and then start other factions... etc As a client you feel like you are getting what you are paying for with no fuss... you dont need to buy massive armies and invest above 500 euros thats very harsh and you get stuck to one race for years.
THe funny thing is that as a PP client now I feel very motivated to get more product and spend way more than I do with GW.

I think GW business model is dated, needs more spacehulks to keep people interested and above all needs to get to the client level and think on clients... keeping people out of info for years about their race is one way ticket to bail out, that and the constant rising of prices and repackaging stunts etc... it gets annoying to deal with such tactics.

Phototoxin wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:If the paints went to asia how come the price didn't come down?

Because you have to pay the nasty smell new washes have... Just dont go dipping your brush with your saliva because you could get the chicken flu, I heard thats a problem over asia ....

so the money they save on asian manufacture is being reinvested to give us the customer biological agents in our paint. Awesome!

Aye and biological agents comes with a price tag

CT GAMER wrote:I am 41 years old.

I have been drinking Cocoa Cola since I was a kid. It has steadily risen in price year as time has passed.

Evil empire?

Come to think of it EVERYTHING I like, buy, eat, wear has gotten increasingly more exspensive during my lifetime.

Stange...

Sorry man thats not the most accurate way to see the problem.
GW prices raised much above inflation... way above! While most goods got inflation rearanged ( with some extra pennies in some cases) but not the silly price rises GW has done.

NELS1031 wrote:I guess PP get a free pass from pricing complaint threads because less models are needed and because they get some important things right. Which is fair, I suppose.

Yes PP needs so fewer models and its a very diferent formula... Its like you only have to buy 1 WFB regiment or less and your done with a PP faction... High prices on this formula makes sense and you see that on almost all skirmish level of gamming.

Possible said within the 4 pages but does it come down to the price of an individual kit vs its points value/use/need within each army?
For example I have a problem paying €26 for a 35 point rhino and if you want to mech your army you conceivably need 3-4 of them. Thats about €100.
However I dont have anywhere near as much of a problem with say buying a 5 man Ork nob squad for €22 since you *most* likely will only need 10 of them and you can tailor them to take up as much or as little points as you need.

Does that make any sense?

Compared to even a year or two ago, GW can feth off. They have outpriced themselves out of a market, and all of the handwringing doesn't excude that as fact.

Other companies have come from the sidelines and are now eating GW's lunch.

Our area, who once had a healthy GW player base, have pretty much all took the stance to let GW hang for a while in the wind, until they either take thier head out of thier fourth point of contact, or they can blow. Instead, we have broadened our gaming choices to include everything from FF games, to board games, to a wide variety of other chocies from historicals to fantasy, to skermish to last of the last.... GW. The best thing about it? People pull out some crazy gaming, and others bring out the oldschool, but from that standpoint, the increase of the fun has improved, and not become as one sided in terms of gaming as it was even a year or so ago. Heck even Historicals, with those tight Perry Sculpts are getting seriously positive feedback, and GW is like a bad joke when you bring up the fact that the Perry's even had anything to do with GW.

ALL of us play different stuff, but we are all in agreement that they have taken the piss and have shot themselves in the face over thier last run of "Business" decisions.

Seriously, dude. We are looking in this area at well over 30 bucks for a run of the mill unit of 10 guys that USED to come in a unit of over 16 for 25. 30-50 was top end. I'm now looking at prices over 100 bucks for what on average should be 80 tops. An average squad of basic whatever. Dude,you can't play a game without at least something to put on the table.

Then you see PP doing the same mess. Pfft. Whatever, you go on ahead and do that at your own pearal chief. I've got around 20-30 more other choices if thats your stance. PP, at least actually realize that they even have a fan base. GW wouldn't even pee on you if you were on fire. They act like you as a player are a nusance, and that they are all of that.
One of these days someone can tell them the hard truth of the matter- That players play games and they are the ones that keep games alive.

Combine that with the way in which GW treats thier own stores, by shutting them down and then using that as a profit? WTF thought of that brilliant plan? Then the idea of actually thinking that one and two man stores is a good idea. ( heck, the good idea is that you only can one or two guys, as opposed to the 5 or so that run a normal store.) Then we can talk about thier love hate relationship with private FLGS's, and see how we, as customers, get the nine inch nail, and then people have the brass to tell you that that is inflation,or some other sophism.

Inflation of hot air is all that it is. The economy is tanking out, and this excuse of inflation is a bunch of garbage. Companies like GW are doing great, it's the fan base and the FLGS's that are taking the beating. They are getting it three sides from sideways and are seeing thier profits go to the big fish, while Mom and Pop game store owner are left to hold the bag at the bottom of the ladder with the customer, who is then blaming them as they crank up the price even more( albet trying to make a little profit), while going to the internet for the better priced same thing.

I have well over enough to tide me over, because I saw it coming before the current flood.

GW makes a product for pennies, sells it for pounds, and then brainwashes the masses to justify rape.

If you actually saw a breakdown of cost per production to profit, you'd probibly burn your plastic crack in the town square and then move on to your local game store. It doesn't cost as much as some would have you think.

As of now, GW to me is on pause, while I take a wait and see stance with them. WHILE i wait, Pulp-City, Malfaux, Call of Cthuhlu, FOW, PP, USX, Secrets of the third riech, Reaper's Riech of the Dead, etc, etc, etc... pretty miuch, any other games that I find that have something to offer, and are even cheaper to boot, all get the attention that GW would have gotten if they wouldn't have decided that 35-40 is better then 20 for lesser valued product. Even with a decrease in product for the price, they took the stance that they were the only game in town, and didn't have to work for my money, and that OTHER more interesting games are out there, waiting in the wings, for stupid business practices to eat thier lunch.

Bad thing about this so called "Inflation" is that it is self-inflicted. There is a point that real inflation has now overstepped GW's self described "Porche of the Hobby" to overtake reality.

That point has come.

Cthuhlu. it's whats for dinner.

I can honestly say that skermesh games are the way to go at this time. GW would do well to take a page out of past glories and reissue Necromunda, Mordhiem, Space Hulk, and the rest, and rethink the slow plays that have them drinking the kool-aid to thier current position.

My gameing store used to be over 90% GW. You used to be able to come in, know that this guy played this, and this guy played that, the IG player knew what he knew about the space marines, the eldar, the Nids, IG, the Ork guy knew about orks, and every faction had thier own players. The steady stream of GW had its off shoots, and the store was generally 80-30 in ratio to other gaming. NOW?

Pfft. GW is maybe 10% and quickly taking the piss when the only time now that people want to pull it out is when there is a mega battle, or that there is a tournament, when you now get to see that same army from before. the one you've played time and again.

Other games are much cheaper for the value, players have more choices, and GW is a nice backstory to how things shouldn't go, as opposed to "Hey, I play fantasy, AND 40K, and I love them both for different reasons."

The choices out there for gaming are leaner then they once were, but the quality of gaming has increased dramaticly from when the boom time of the late 80's and early 90's had more sticks to shake.

We now have, because of GW's dirty diaper, more choices and better pricing from OTHER companies, then it is to be les then impressed by craptastic sculpts, and incrased price of craptacular proportions.



And to top this of, my opinion is the mild one of our local area.

I don't really play tournaments, more with friends. We convert non GW models to GW models all the time. Back in the day I would buy the knock off Sci Fi armored guys, an add some Space Marine bits to them, and they almost looked the same. In fact, the model you choose to use, just really needs to be to scale. When 4th edition fantasy came out I started my first Fantasy Army, and since no one in my gaming group played Lizardmen and they were an army in the box set I chose to play them. Then my army book finally came out but there were no models for stegadons, salamanders, or some of the other dinosaur like models. I went out and bought rubber toy dinosaurs. Built a howda out of balsa wood, and added some skinks. I think I probably spent a total of $15 to $20 on it and it was near scale of what a stegadon should be, and it had everything on it. Giant bow and skinks. Everyone got a kick out of my toy dinosaur army I built with my lizards, but at the time GW did not release any models for those particular units in my army at that time.

Of course, tournaments may frown upon such things, but outside of tournaments it doesn't matter. I remember buying cheap discounted WWII tank models as converting them to guard tanks as a kid. I also remember testing out stuff before I bought by using legos and Lincoln logs. If I was going to spent money on a war machine I would test it out a few games first with a lego model I built from spare legos. Then if I liked it, I would purchase it.

Also, once you buy them, they are good. All my 15+ year old space marine models still work, even my 20 year old Rogue Trader ones.

Grot 6 wrote:Then you see PP doing the same mess. Pfft. Whatever, you go on ahead and do that at your own pearal chief. I've got around 20-30 more other choices if thats your stance.

I really don't see PP doing it. I mean sure, PP models are point-for-point about as much as GW, but they're metal as opposed to plastic and ultimately you only need 1 of each squad, maybe 2.

PP has also got $50 starter boxes.

Ultimately, I think what kills GW versus today's competition is the $50 starter price. I can get into Infinity, Malifaux, WM/Hordes, all for about $50.

GW has nothing even close to a $50 starting cost.

sourclams wrote:
I really don't see PP doing it. I mean sure, PP models are point-for-point about as much as GW, but they're metal as opposed to plastic and ultimately you only need 1 of each squad, maybe 2.

PP has also got $50 starter boxes.

Ultimately, I think what kills GW versus today's competition is the $50 starter price. I can get into Infinity, Malifaux, WM/Hordes, all for about $50.

GW has nothing even close to a $50 starting cost.

But maybe all of those competitors have the same thing going in the future? I'm relatively new for the game, but it seems there has been steady growth in scale of games over the years, which I guess makes sense - more people have more figs, and want to use more of them. I know nothing about Warmachines, but I've heard that bit of the same thing has been going on. Maybe 5-10 years from now, that 50 bucks (inflation adjusted...) buys you but a small skirmish force which few people bother playing with anymore...

At least in Aus, their pricing is a joke.

The Starter box, Blackreach(or whatever) - started here @ $85 per box.

2 years later - $145.

So not only has the box dated itself(Father Time marches on)- they have almost doubled the price.

DOUBLED.....

In Australia, Petrol(unleaded) goes for about $1.35 per litre.

If the petrol companies cited 'Inflation' - and the price went to $2.15 per litre - everyone would freak out!


We'd still drive to work every day though.....

akira5665 wrote:At least in Aus, their pricing is a joke.

The Starter box, Blackreach(or whatever) - started here @ $85 per box.

2 years later - $145.

So not only has the box dated itself(Father Time marches on)- they have almost doubled the price.

DOUBLED.....

In Australia, Petrol(unleaded) goes for about $1.35 per litre.

If the petrol companies cited 'Inflation' - and the price went to $2.15 per litre - everyone would freak out!


We'd still drive to work every day though.....

How come no one freaks out about this though? My $40k car would've been around $120k in Australia because of taxes and fees!?

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/18/why-cars-can-cost-3x-as-much-in-australia-despite-currency-parit/

I know its a different industry and all, but if GW is taxed and made to pay any fees for selling their products in Australia, it may explain why their pricing is as ridiculous as your auto industries pricing.

Also if this article is accurate(and its a hightly respected site), the average Aussie makes... $10k more then their American equivalent? For real? If thats true, I may have to rethink my sympathies of you guys having such high prices for your plastic army men. Granted, living costs probably eat away at that nice bonus you get for living on an island prison colony, but still... $10k?

In addition, a commenter on this article explains that the situation(for the auto industry) in Canada is that they are more expensive there then south of the border in the good ole US of A. Not as bad as in Australia, but still more expensive, despite currency parity there as well.

Just goes to show there may be more to GWs pricing then just plain exceedingly stupid greed that so many people insinuate.

A minimal cost in overhead can jump prices up. The cost of coal goes up, so does the cost of electricity. The cost of raw materials goes up 2 cents a pound, well guess what, production costs of making models just went up. What is a 2% increase though? Well, lets say they spend 500k on raw materials to make a years worth of models. 2% of 500k is $10,000. Now add in a 3% cost of energy going up, cost of taxes, shipping, and so forth.

There are a lot of factors to take in when dealing with a company that makes and ships a multi-national product. I am not saying they charge too much, but what I am saying is please lets look at the overall picture here before we jump to conclusions. I think their larger boxed sets are very well priced for what you get, when you calculate cost per a model. I think that the Land Raider Kit, the Fantasy Giant, and other large plastic models probably aren't really worth the retail price.

Then again, something is worth what someone is willing to pay. Lord knows how many times I have had to bust out the overall cost of ownership when jumping into Mac vs PC debates.

I'm just grateful for all the ways of getting around the price issue. Thanks to the low GBP in relation to my country's currency, and with the added 15% off RRP that some stores offer, I can get away with kits for less than what they were when I started gaming (around 2001).

If it wasn't for the online retailers, I would not be buying their products anymore. With the current pricing in Sweden, I would not have started playing Warhammer if I discovered it today.

Yes, they are slowly pricing themselves out of the market.