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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 15:43:37
Subject: wound allocation
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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Tri wrote:Think that an age ago there was some difference but not now.
Not that long ago, whippersnapper!
I suppose people will play the WA rules the same for the horrors as they do for Space marine Termies then, one way or the other.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 15:48:12
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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Soup and a roll wrote:Not that long ago, whippersnapper! I suppose people will play the WA rules the same for the horrors as they do for Space marine Termies then, one way or the other.  (Back in 3rd i had no money so i have no codices from that far back). ... trouble is horrors share a profile, Sgts don't they have their own which means they can never share the same profile with the rest of the unit.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 15:50:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 16:02:18
Subject: wound allocation
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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If that is true, I agree. It is not the same thing.
I still think that the sergeant is identical 'in gaming terms' to his squaddies. It would have no effect on the squad or the battle if there were three sgts and two troopers, or if one of the termies was actually called Bob the terminator (other than being illegal). I don't think the proviso would be there if the rules meant they had to share a single profile.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 16:03:52
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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Soup and a roll wrote:If that is true, I agree. It is not the same thing.
I still think that the sergeant is identical 'in gaming terms' to his squaddies. It would have no effect on the squad or the battle if there were three sgts and two troopers, or if one of the termies was actually called Bob the terminator (other than being illegal). I don't think the proviso would be there if the rules meant they had to share a single profile.
But it clearly asks you if they do have the same profile of characteristics. They don't so they're a complex unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 19:00:55
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Guarding Guardian
North by northwest
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But if a used combi-weapon is treated identical to an unused combi-weapon for the sake of wound allocation, what happens if you have two combi-weapons in one unit, fire one of them and then one dies? Wouldn't just wound allocating make sense?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 19:03:25
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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Ziggy Stardust wrote:But if a used combi-weapon is treated identical to an unused combi-weapon for the sake of wound allocation, what happens if you have two combi-weapons in one unit, fire one of them and then one dies? Wouldn't just wound allocating make sense?
One of the them die, you pick which (I'd kill the one that has all ready fired). This because they are armed the same (unless one has a different type of combi-weapon)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 19:04:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 19:04:40
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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Are the models armed with a combi-weapon?
I do not think there is a way to prove that firing the weapon makes it a differet weapon.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 20:05:55
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Dakka Veteran
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I think it's odd that in one case, we have models being allocated separately because their names are different, but there is no relevant change for the game, but in the other situation we have two models being allocated wounds together because they have the same name, even though they do in fact have different effects on the game. Automatically Appended Next Post: kirsanth wrote:I do not think there is a way to prove that firing the weapon makes it a differet weapon.
Do they have the same options available?
If not, then I don't see how they could be anything other than different. Same name does not counter different abilities.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 20:08:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 20:25:01
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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somerandomdude wrote:I think it's odd that in one case, we have models being allocated separately because their names are different, but there is no relevant change for the game, but in the other situation we have two models being allocated wounds together because they have the same name, even though they do in fact have different effects on the game. Automatically Appended Next Post: kirsanth wrote:I do not think there is a way to prove that firing the weapon makes it a differet weapon. Do they have the same options available? If not, then I don't see how they could be anything other than different. Same name does not counter different abilities.
A sternguard is uniformly equipped with combi-flamers. Some models have fired others haven't. They take several wounds so we check to see if they are a complex unit. The sgt has his own profile so is different to every one else. Models with combi-flamers are all the same as they all have the same wargear, even though some cannot fire them any more. A sensible person removes the combi weapons that have fired first.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 20:25:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 20:37:16
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Dakka Veteran
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I know you have been arguing with DR for several pages, but all I'm getting (from anyone who disagrees with me - my brother, my friends, other posters) is more examples, and not a reason.
How do these models not stand out? Does "before game" or "when the game starts" really matter after the game has begun?
What exactly happens when a combi-weapon is fired? Does it not change anything? Doesn't it make one profile unavailable, which means that the profiles are in fact different?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 20:49:40
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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somerandomdude wrote:I know you have been arguing with DR for several pages, but all I'm getting (from anyone who disagrees with me - my brother, my friends, other posters) is more examples, and not a reason.
How do these models not stand out? Does "before game" or "when the game starts" really matter after the game has begun?
What exactly happens when a combi-weapon is fired? Does it not change anything? Doesn't it make one profile unavailable, which means that the profiles are in fact different?
we're not asked about wargear status just ...
the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear ...
Does the model have the same ...
profile of characteristics
same weapons
wargear
...then they're treated as the same.
Terminator Sgt has his own profile so he cannot share the same profile of characteristics even though they may have the same stats.
Fired combi weapons are still combi weapons, so they are treated the same.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 21:09:30
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Tri wrote:Fired combi weapons are still combi weapons, so they are treated the same.
Except that one is a combi weapon that can be used, and one is a combi weapon that can not be used.
Not the same, IMO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 21:11:40
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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insaniak wrote:Tri wrote:Fired combi weapons are still combi weapons, so they are treated the same.
Except that one is a combi weapon that can be used, and one is a combi weapon that can not be used.
Not the same, IMO.
the same ... as far as complex units are concerns not other game dynamics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 21:48:18
Subject: wound allocation
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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But that's the point. The complex units rule calls for you to determine whether or not the models are the same for game purposes.
A model with a combi weapon that is still usable is not the same for game purposes as a model with a combi weapon that it can not use... because it has a combi weapon that is usable, whereas the other model doesn't.
The whole point of the complex units rule is to separate out models that are different so that you don't have to try to figure out how the wounds are applied. Treating both combi weapons as the same leaves you having to figure out whether the model you remove as a casualty is the one with the working weapon or not... which is exactly the sort of situation that the rule is supposed to prevent.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 21:49:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 21:56:42
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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insaniak wrote:The whole point of the complex units rule is to separate out models that are different so that you don't have to try to figure out how the wounds are applied. Treating both combi weapons as the same leaves you having to figure out whether the model you remove as a casualty is the one with the working weapon or not... which is exactly the sort of situation that the rule is supposed to prevent.
I see your point ... still unsure but i can see that as an option.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:20:30
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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Profile A is still different than Profile B right?
I have never found a rule that suggests that a profile containing identical numers is actually the exact same profile as an entirely different profile that contains those same numbers. The fact that those profiles are named differently makes them not indentical in any terms--let alone gaming terms. The name is still part of the profile.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:24:20
Subject: wound allocation
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Insaniak - the list is inclusive and exhaustive; whether a combi weapon can fire or not is NOT on that list, and therefore does not "count" for wound allocation purposes.
Yes, they are different. But NOT as far as wound allocation is concerned.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:29:11
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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insaniak wrote:Tri wrote:Fired combi weapons are still combi weapons, so they are treated the same.
Except that one is a combi weapon that can be used, and one is a combi weapon that can not be used.
Not the same, IMO.
Wasn't this actually addressed in an faq somewhere? I'm not sure if it is the core rules =(
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:44:40
Subject: wound allocation
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - the list is inclusive and exhaustive; whether a combi weapon can fire or not is NOT on that list, and therefore does not "count" for wound allocation purposes.
Whether or not a combi weapon can fire is not. But the model can be considered as having different weaponry (due to having a weapon that is no longer usable) which is on the list.
ChrisCP wrote:Wasn't this actually addressed in an faq somewhere? I'm not sure if it is the core rules =(
The closest so far as I'm aware is addressing limited shot weapon on vehicles:
Rulebook FAQ wrote:A: No. Once a weapon cannot possibly fire again during
the battle it is effectively destroyed as far as Damaged -
Weapon Destroyed results on the Vehicle Damage table
are concerned.
...which could be seen as a precedent for counting the used 'combi' part of the combi-weapon as no longer a weapon for game purposes... but isn't really a hard and fast rule.
Ultimately, though, you have one possible interpretation (a used and an unused combi weapon are effectively the same) which requires you to create a house rule when the unit takes casualties, to determine which of the models is removed... and you have another possible interpretation (that a weapon that is still usable and a weapon that is not usable are not the same in game terms) which allows you to just carry on with the game.
While everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, obviously, I'm inclined to go with the interpretation that functions within the existing rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:56:37
Subject: wound allocation
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Why the houserule? You can always decide which of any wound-group you remove, ALWAYS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 22:58:02
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Why the houserule? You can always decide which of any wound-group you remove, ALWAYS.
because if you roll a 1 on the group that hasn't fired you loose a model that could have shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 23:18:04
Subject: wound allocation
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Why the houserule? You can always decide which of any wound-group you remove, ALWAYS.
Fair point.
However, the reason that you can always choose which model to remove is because they are identical.
If the models are not, in fact, identical, then you're at the very best sitting in a grey area of the rules. I would think, though, that the fact that the choice as to which model you remove in this instance does make an actual difference in game terms should be a red flag that has 'You're doing it wrong!' emblazoned on it in large letters.
Again, the whole point of the complex units rule is to ensure that wounds are sorted in groups of identical models. The models, in game terms, are not identical if the weapons that they have available for use are not the same.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 23:24:40
Subject: wound allocation
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Proud Phantom Titan
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insaniak wrote: Again, the whole point of the complex units rule is to ensure that wounds are sorted in groups of identical models. The models, in game terms, are not identical if the weapons that they have available for use are not the same.
Ok say a squad of 10 Burnas rocks up 5 fire 5 don't they then charge. Are they identical or could you stack wounds on those that fired? (Burnas can be used as flamer or as a power weapon but not both in the same turn)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 23:24:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 23:34:00
Subject: wound allocation
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Still sitting firmly in that same grey area... but for my money, at the point in time that the wounds are being resolved, those models are not identical as some have power weapons and some don't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 23:55:32
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Tri wrote:Terminator Sgt has his own profile so he cannot share the same profile of characteristics even though they may have the same stats.
the problem with that is, in the rule, they take same to mean identical, and not exact same/share a profile.
So a group of models can have 2 different profiles that are identical in gaming terms and be treated as a unit that can not allocate wounds since they are identical.
Like the Terminator Assault squad. All the values of the characteristics on both of those profiles are identical.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/19 23:57:05
Subject: Re:wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:All the values of the characteristics on both of those profiles are identical.
And yet they have different profiles.
Editing to add:
That is how you can tell them apart for game reasons.
The numbers in the profile are not the profile. Notice that they each start with a name to let you identify they model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring part of the listed profile does make it obvious how this is confusing though.
You must look at the entire profile to see the difference in various profiles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Like the Terminator Assault
or like the space marines with the same numbers but different profiles?
Even you know they are two different profiles or they would not be listed as BOTH in your original post.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:05:05
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:04:55
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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They do have different Identical profiles.
That is what matters for allocation, if the two profiles were not identical then you could allocate.(provided the 2 profiles had the same rules, wargear, and weapons).
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:05:48
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:They do have different Identical profiles.
So the differently named profiles are the same despite your claims? Just to point out, the profile is not the same if it is not the same profile. Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:They do have different Identical profiles.
Do you not see the name of the model in the Characteristics Profile or do you just ignore it?
"Different Identical" anything is just made of so much win I feel the need to repeat it.
Consider it tagged.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:12:35
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:16:22
Subject: wound allocation
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper wrote:They do have different Identical profiles.
So the differently named profiles are the same despite your claims? Just to point out, the profile is not the same if it is not the same profile. In the rule, they take same to mean identical, and not exact same/share a profile. So they are Identical/the same for game purposes even though they have a different name, since the names have no bearing on the rules. 2 different profiles, even though they are not the same profile, can be the same profile of characteristics.(where the first 'same' in the sentence means there are 2 different profiles, and the second 'same' means Identical) the English language is stupid like that, Does anyone have a German or Italian copy of the BRB? That would clear this up.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:18:02
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/20 00:17:48
Subject: wound allocation
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Huge Bone Giant
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DeathReaper wrote:since the names have no bearing on the rules.
Text please. editing to add: Not yours. One more addition: The names are listed in the example rules and each profile given. Why do you ignore it?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 00:19:10
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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