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General Hobbs wrote:
Night with a hooker.....1000 dollars. 1 hour with a hooker, 250. Weekend with a hooker, 3000. ( Got my stats from news stories about Charlie Sheen.)

Sure, sure.

I've heavily reduced my model purchasing.

I went wild buying stuff when Imperial Guard and Planetstrike dropped and then again when the Ork and Space Marine mega-force were released. There was a lot of spending in a short period of time, but then prices went up and up and up again. So I laid low and didn't buy a thing for a very long time. My last purchase was when The Warstore had its Black Friday sale.

Point is; while I've not reached my breaking point, I'm dangerously close.

As for when GW will price themselves out of the market... I don't really ever see that happening.

yeah, the prices are insane. If it wasnt for ebay I wouldnt have much of an army . I only buy retail if im given a gift card. People can judge me however they choose (because I know some of you out there despise those of us who buy from cheaper places on the internet because your worried that its going to put GW out of business, please) but buying from alternative sources is as capitalist as the ingratuitous prices that GW tries to get people to pay.

That's very true. Although GW, since it's transformation into a publicly owned company, has been characterised by a gradual turning of the screws where $ is seen as the be-all and end-all and to the point where the rule mechanics are becoming just a slave to selling of modelling kits.

Out of interest, looking on the GW site, there was a page on 'starting a new O&G army'. Out of curiosity, I opened it and had a look at what it had to say, as though I was a new customer.

So, first page is a pretty awe-inspiring picture of an O&G army. Looking at it makes me want to buy an O&G army (no sarcasm, at least not yet! )



OK, I turn the page; there is a sample army by someone called Jim Sowter. The first line reads,
"I don't think you can go wrong with Orc Boyz, so my army is built around three large units of them. They're tough, relatively hitty and pretty cheap, which means I can have loads!"

Sounds great! Looking at the army list, I see a total of 110 Orc boyz, as well as large unit of Night Goblins, some artillery, a giant and shaman amongst other items.

I then go to the store, take a look at the price and immediately direct my browser towards Gamespot.com to see what new Xbox games are coming out next week, as I realise that for just those core orc units alone, I would be looking at paying £198, before any other purchases or hobby tools/paints etc. Yes, these items are available cheaper elsewhere, but remember the website is built to facilitate sales directly, and a new player might not be available or trusting in that they are ordering the same thing as featured on the website.

This is how GW want you to play WFB 8th edition. Yes, all of us know the game can be enjoyed by using less points, but without exception every featured/example army on the website is either crammed full of expensive core units (such as this one) or is 2500-3000pts plus. Yes, price increases are part of life/the economy etc., but they are certainly not relative, and the change of ethos in recent years by GW is not conducive at all towards attracting new players.

The end result is, I know that if I had been a child at this time rather than 20 years ago when I first got into the hobby, I would have looked at the website and then reluctantly moved on to something else, because although I was spellbound by the models, they were simply far too expensive for me to ever be able to afford. And thinking of this situation, and all the enjoyment that modelling/playing has brought me over the years, makes me very sad indeed.

oni wrote:I've heavily reduced my model purchasing.

I went wild buying stuff when Imperial Guard and Planetstrike dropped and then again when the Ork and Space Marine mega-force were released. There was a lot of spending in a short period of time, but then prices went up and up and up again. So I laid low and didn't buy a thing for a very long time. My last purchase was when The Warstore had its Black Friday sale.

Point is; while I've not reached my breaking point, I'm dangerously close.

As for when GW will price themselves out of the market... I don't really ever see that happening.

I think it already happened, it's just not a quick process.

Maybe to reinforce my kids to pick up gaming, I'll do what my parents did: don't buy them a video game system until their senior year of high school(and even then reluctantly, since they bought mine so I could stay all day at their new condo for appliances to be delivered whilst they were at work).

Mantic! At least for fantasy, it's a great alternative.

Yeah, I can see mantic getting a lot of sales out of orc players.
They're going to reap a lot of profit from GW's pricing folly.

Pacific wrote:I then go to the store, take a look at the price and immediately direct my browser towards Gamespot.com to see what new Xbox games are coming out next week, as I realise that for just those core orc units alone, I would be looking at paying £198, before any other purchases or hobby tools/paints etc. Yes, these items are available cheaper elsewhere, but remember the website is built to facilitate sales directly, and a new player might not be available or trusting in that they are ordering the same thing as featured on the website.

This is how GW want you to play WFB 8th edition. Yes, all of us know the game can be enjoyed by using less points, but without exception every featured/example army on the website is either crammed full of expensive core units (such as this one) or is 2500-3000pts plus. Yes, price increases are part of life/the economy etc., but they are certainly not relative, and the change of ethos in recent years by GW is not conducive at all towards attracting new players.

The end result is, I know that if I had been a child at this time rather than 20 years ago when I first got into the hobby, I would have looked at the website and then reluctantly moved on to something else, because although I was spellbound by the models, they were simply far too expensive for me to ever be able to afford. And thinking of this situation, and all the enjoyment that modelling/playing has brought me over the years, makes me very sad indeed.

Very true. Even when I got into this game 10 years ago, it was expensive, but somehow the balance between cost and enjoyment was different. Nowadays, the cost is about the only thing im worried about, considering my disposable income is trying to supplement the inflation of gas and food too! There was something you said that I never gave much thought about, which is the fact that this hobby is in competition not only with other miniature games but with external companies in different markets. It is so much easier...and more convenient for most of us to simply waltz over to the local retail store and buy a new video game. For 60$ you get instantaneous enjoyment, little frustration (though this is contingent on the game ), and a very important element that all Americans love, its simple and easy. Then again video games are not a hobby. I agree with what you say though. Perhaps GW should have raised the points cost of units in the newest edition of rules instead of scaling them back. Its ridiculous how little $500 will buy you in this hobby.

I was looking through some very old white dwarves a few monthes back and i found a marine list. (hardly surprising)

But this list was 1,500 points.
Converted into the current codex it was pointed at about 1,150.

Points being rolled back has been going on a long time, all the time this has been happening, prices are going up.
Also prices, i guess, are at least 50% higher than what i remember as a child.

Assuming i spent £200 to get my 1,500 army, i'd be left with 1,150 in todays world. Meaning i'd have to buy another 350 points worth, but at 50% higher prices.
This leaves me spending a further £90 to get my army up to scratch.

If i were to buy a new army based on what i had origionally i'd need to spend £390 (almost double)
Which is frankly, ridiculous, which may also apply to my math (someone check that for me i've been drinking)

The price increase on orc boys and the lack of what I see as value in the orc book has me thinking like nothing so far about really scaling back on GW. I was planning a brettonian army for later in the year, but I dunno...
Is it just gonna be a case of drastically expensive Bretts, in three or four years time? :-|
I want a project, but now, Mantic and other suppliers are looking like a better option for that project.
I'll see how I go. If my Mantic Skeletons are fun to paint, I might take the plunge. Looking at those greatcoats, too.

Define "the hobby". If you mean GW, well sales trends show most people are saying now is too expensive. Other game systems...dunno, many seem to be doing well.

I agree, I think the gamesplayers are still there (perhaps more now than ever), but GW's share of that market is diminishing as they alienate their fans through the latest batch of price increases which I think, in the case of the orc boyz, is frankly insulting.

If the hobby was more mainstream, you just know that Family Guy would do a sketch of the GW boardroom where they are discussing the price increases: "Come on, they won't really keep on buying it will they, if we do this?" While the other members of the board pound their fists on the table (which laughing) chanting, "Do it! Do it!"

Mad4Minis wrote:Define "the hobby". If you mean GW, well sales trends show most people are saying now is too expensive. Other game systems...dunno, many seem to be doing well.

Sorry my original post I applied the term "the Hobby" meant playing the game, modelling and painting your figures, all different things I know but overall all aspects of the hobby are affected by price.

My son and I are people starting out in the world of 40k and like many of you have siad, starter boxes where fine, if you wanted to build the armies included in it, but we didnt, I kept the marines and my son wanted necrons, so the orks were sold to help fund the start of a necron army, but with the cost of starting an army that isn't included in the starter set is madness, I can honestly say that with the exception of a monolith he got bought for xmas, not one item in his entire2800 point army were bought from GW.

Its great saying the starter sets are value for money, but you dont just buy the starter set, heck you dont even get a tube of glue in it, our starter set cost us over a £100.00 if you facter in some paint, glue, spray paint, brushes, some tools and a codex.

Obviously I now know I could of bought all those things cheaper elsewhere, but at the time standing in the store we just jumped in feet first. and bam £100.00 plus gone.

Like many of the people that have posted on this thread, I now buy very little directly from GW, with the exception of xmas/birthday pressies of gift cards etc, and the odd pot of paint I need, but only when im passing the store. All of my purchases are from either discount webstores or ebay.

As a disabled father of 3 it is impossible to buy direct from GW, we simply cant afford it, but as both my son and I get so much from playing and modelling together, and my two younger children also enjoy getting involved with the whole warhammer 40k world, I am sticking with it. I just cant help but feel GW have missed the boat on numerous occasions to boost interest in the 40k world, and therefore increase sales, which would possibly mean less dramatic price hikes over the past few years.

Ellis

Deeks2010 wrote: snip...As a disabled father of 3 it is impossible to buy direct from GW, we simply cant afford it, but as both my son and I get so much from playing and modelling together, and my two younger children also enjoy getting involved with the whole warhammer 40k world, I am sticking with it. I just cant help but feel GW have missed the boat on numerous occasions to boost interest in the 40k world, and therefore increase sales, which would possibly mean less dramatic price hikes over the past few years.

Ellis

May I sugest you buy online and pick a diferent company? There are interesting skirmishes and miniature for you and your kids to explore outhere... you can also dig for diferent set of rules and use the miniatures you already have.
For example check "Songs of blades and heroes" a simple rule setting for fantasy skirmish that you can use any mini from any company to represent your warband... they also have scifi rulesets and all is quite cheap. If you have a mini familly club for you and your kids to have fun togheter theres really no need to be stuck with GW rules mate

I second Navarro's suggestion.

Apart from the SF and Fantasy games, there is a whole range of historical games for different periods, genres and scales.

Most of them are surprisingly cheap compared to and can also be educational as they may lead players to investigate the real history behind the game army.

When will it be too expensive?

About five years ago.

Da Boss wrote:The price increase on orc boys and the lack of what I see as value in the orc book has me thinking like nothing so far about really scaling back on GW...

Unfortunately this is my exact reasoning for deciding to not collect Orks, Tyranids or any other horde army :( I would love to paint/play something I have never tried before, but im not willing to commit to the price of those army's. Seriously, buying 1 box of hormagaunts at 25$ equates to what...40 pts of characters? Ridiculous

really there is so many people out there who have a pile of minis they dont care about its easy to get a good deal. Just last week i picked up about 30 guardians/dire avengers and a Viper for $12 dollars.

It does take a bit more effort to buy of craigslist or a similar site but its well worth it if you want lots of little plastic men.

shealyr wrote:One of the great things about it is that an army is essentially a one-time expense. Once you buy a model, you can use it for years and years, with the only real expenses being a new codex/army book, and a few new models each edition. Once you're established in it, assuming you don't go new-army-crazy, it really isn't all that expensive.

Of course, this is just for playing. If you buy models to paint, you should probably be looking at ranges outside of GW...

This is a good point. The fact im often out of money is purely because i'm collecting too many armies, that's why i'm trying to get some at the affectionatly-named stand still point. If i think about it, if i'd stuck with my eldar army, and perhaps one other, i'd have spent a hell of a lot less, and i'd still get some games in.

I guess it's all relative to your own financial situation and what you want out of the hobby in general. GW/40k wise if you get the bug bad and start collecting entire Companies of Marines, then, sure, it's expensive. If you're, like me, more of a casual player who prefers painting/modelling then it can be relatively good value. To be honest I'd be more than happy with 1,000-1,500 points of every army at a cost of £100-350 per army, rather than 10,000pts + of a single army. I think a lot of people equate costs to points, as that's what determines how many £££'s your army eventually costs. However I view costs more with both points and modelling/painting/gaming time in mind, which eases the pain

A Storm Raven, for example is £41. Now that's a lot of money - but it's also a lot of model. If you went to town on it that's easily between 10-30 hours + modelling time. So, per hour, that's cheap modelling, not to mention the 20% off you can get from most online retailers and the amount of gaming time you may get out of it.

A new computer game, if you just HAD to buy it on release, would cost you between £30-50 - perhaps with about 8-16 hrs gameplay. And that's not to mention the people who spend £100+ on a pair of trainers or jeans & handbags etc or go out and spend that much on drinks every weekend, not being able to recolect their good time. So money/time/satisfaction wise I guess wargaming's cheap. Most of us could probably afford to spend £25-50 a month, which is good for a unit/s or a large kit. So in 3-6 months we could have a new army, with the time (maybe) to paint it in between purchases. So you could get 2-4 armies a year with all the bargains on eBay and discounts from online retailers limiting the cost considerably. The danger is you may feel you HAVE to buy every possible unit, but you don't. Remember a game of 40k can be played with just a single HQ and 2-3 units, and some of my most enjoyable games have been under 1,000pts.

As others have said there are plenty of alternatives to GW, although I'd wager GW's background, if not models, is the best Fantasy/Sci-fi yet written, even if their rules aren't

In a world where new computer games (which can be played completely maybe 2-3 times before all options are exhausted, or played repetitively and ineffectually over the 'net) can cost between £30-£50, I think spending £25 on a box of models that will take me month to paint, and that I can then use an infiniate number of times to play against real live friends, is a pretty cheap option.

For that same £25 I could see maybe 3 films at the cinema (2 if I buy popcorn), which is only 3 hours worth of fun. I could possibly get a 1 month gym membership, or an hour's paintballing, or 2-3 new release DVDs (depending on where I buy.) None of these things will consume as much time or be as entertaining as painting 10 models. And since GW provide a place for me to paint, it makes it even better value. Heck, I have made a lot of friends sitting in my local GW, and the fact that I can move anywhere in the country, take my models into another GW, and meet new people... well, that's pretty awesome too.

For me, personally, that makes it worth the cost.

I'm not going to say that everyone has to share my view on this- just that I think people who spend a lot of time on their models probably get a better deal than those who don't paint and only play.

(And as for it being more expensive now- when I first got into the game a blister of 3 spearmen cost £3.50. So that was *still* £35 per unit of 10- and plastic kits either didn't exist or looked pathetically horrible! So yeah- I'll take my £18 box for 16, please- they look good, and I can carry them around en masse without having to be built like a pro wrestler...)

Trust me when I say this:

At least it's not as expensive as MTG on a competitive level (where the game is worth a damn).

I mean, just look at these deck costs:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=794494
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793620
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793626
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=793633

And keep in mind those decks become illegal (meaning you can't use them in a tournament) every two years by October or so. I used to be a diehard MTG player, then I switched to 40k because of how damned expensive MTG is compared to 40k. With 40k, I can spend the amount in deck #1 to build almost 3 1500 point painted armies WITH extra bitz for wargear. I'd take that anyday over pieces of cardboard.

Ares:

I haven't looked at those decks and I'm not familiar with what's current, but
do some of those decks have overlap? Meaning, could you possibly own three
or four of those decks without paying the full price on all three or four decks?

Or are each of those decks self-contained?

While I haven't played competitively in ~17 years, I've placed in tournaments with 50$ decks (admittedly, I could never have done that if I hadn't had a large stockpile of cards to work from).

More importantly, if you just want to play in general, you can pick up a 10$ starter deck and play out of the box.

malfred wrote:Ares:

I haven't looked at those decks and I'm not familiar with what's current, but
do some of those decks have overlap? Meaning, could you possibly own three
or four of those decks without paying the full price on all three or four decks?

Or are each of those decks self-contained?

Each deck is it's own thing, but some share colors. If you own a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor (who is about $100 by himself [yes, I know, a piece of cardboard worth $100], which is the reason why the decks are so high in cost), then building a super competitive deck just got a whole lot easier as a large portion of the competitive decks use him. But still, ~$400 worth in 4 cards is absolutely ridiculous.

You make it back on the pro-circuit tour, right/

All I ever won in miniatures wargaming is gift certificates.

malfred wrote:You make it back on the pro-circuit tour, right/

All I ever won in miniatures wargaming is gift certificates.

I understand what you are trying to get at, but at a PTC people are playing with all of the expensive cards and literally every deck that tops that has 4 Jace the Mind Sculptors. Its ridiculous and it doesn't mean that you'll get into the top just because you have the card everyone else has. In less than 2 years he will rotate out and be worth absolutely nothing. In Warhammer at least your models are still usable in the next edition not to mention that they increase in value as soon as you paint them nicely if you ever wanted to sell them.

Also having a fully painted army is much more satisfying to have than a shiny piece of cardboard. I've played pretty much every big TCG in the last year and all of them are exhibiting the same things. Shiny pieces of cardboard that are over 70 dollars and you need them in your deck, but unfortunately they all rotate out or in Yugioh's case get banned completely. The TCG community is very unstable with how much the shiny cardboard is worth and its only temporarily usable as it is. Amazingly enough all of this can even be said of Pokemon. You'd think after 10+ years the cards would be worthless right? Especially the new ones. Dead wrong. Warhammer is much cheaper in the long run so long as you stick to one army.

Red Comet wrote: so long as you stick to one army.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Your comparisons would be nice to blog. Mind if I do?

malfred wrote:

Red Comet wrote: so long as you stick to one army.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Your comparisons would be nice to blog. Mind if I do?

Not like you wouldn't blog about it if I said no.