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Brother Coa wrote:And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of black

Fixed.

They're probably much more common in PDF's considering how unsupervised those things are. Otherwise short of emergencies such as Ork/Tyranid invasion I don't see them being used much.

I think child soldiers are one of the topics that are rarely covered though. It would make a good book. I mean, you don't even really hear about Chaos-corrupted children fighting either despite the fact they're probably in great numbers on any Chaos infested world.

As standard practice the Imperial Guard will be looking for the better elements of the PDF to induct. This generally precludes children. However, in regards to the OP, the Imperium DOES use child soldiers. Often without hesitation, and not only as a last resort.
Even if you don't consider the practices of the PDF to matter in regards as to what the Imperium does, the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.


@Kanluwen: There is no legal recognition of a 'teenager' and there probably shouldn't be. You are either an adult or a minor, and minor means child.

EDIT: spelling hurt

Actually EF:

Minor is defined as...

a person under the legal age of full responsibility

That doesn't mean "child". It just means..."under the legal age of full responsibility".

Emperors Faithful wrote:the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.

Pages?

Not that I would be surprised, the IoM isn't a nice organisation afterall.

They're not called "child soldiers", it's just the generic "Conscript Platoon".

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I suspect (although I don't know which countries armed forces you serve alongside) that the major difference is the vast amount of propaganda the Imperium uses on its populations (not that it's likely to take much actual propaganda - the simple facts would likely cause most people to cling to the Imperium for safety and to preserve their own if for no other reason). Most Guardsmen will likely truly believe in the cause they are fighting for, especially those serving of Cadia. It'd be hard not witness the horrors 40K Milky Way and not seek to exterminate the threats to you and yours.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

Israel? North Korea?

LOL North Korea bro? No...

Israel is surprisingly devoid of propaganda. You don't really need much propaganda when about 70% of men and over 50% of women are conscripted into the military at age 18. It's not like they struggled to meet recruiting quotas.

Idealogically they were fine, but 18 year olds want to do 18 year old things. They do the minimum required of them. "Rosh katan" (small head) is the slang for it...basically means that whether or not you know what you SHOULD be doing, you do what you're TOLD to do. A military like that survives on the virtues of its officers. Which, I guess, is sort of reflected in the IG Codex. Heavy Weapon Teams suck without Bring It Down orders.

To play to the choir, I guess in the 41st Milliennium, "there is only war", so lacking Facebook and discos, I guess most 18 year olds would be interested in serving...

Brother Coa wrote:Why do you think that Imperium is bad? They are taking necessary risks so that our race can survive. If not for this kind of supervision ( Inquisition, Commissars, Priests etc ) every planet under Human rule would be an empire for itself ( just remember "Battle for planet Terra ).
In 40k, if we want for Humanity to survive we must sacrifice some freedoms and right we have today. Because one man is always enough to start a war, or Armageddon in that matter. And it is my personal motivation to see a 15 year old boy serving an army rather than joining some gangs. And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of gray. Every race have some noble cause and horrific means to achieve it.

The catch is in the larger fluff it ISN'T that Dystopian, sure some worlds are without doubt. But most of 40k's grimdark comes from enemies external and internal to the Imperium, not from any poor quality of life. Abnett has actually made it quite clear over all the books he's done that the average Imperial Citizen's life is not that much better or worse than anyone's today.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually EF:

Minor is defined as...

a person under the legal age of full responsibility

That doesn't mean "child". It just means..."under the legal age of full responsibility".

So when does childhood end, other than the point that they attain full legal responsibility? When they can consent, when they are criminally responsible? Remember, the notion of teenage-hood is a recent concept in our society.

Medium of Death wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.

Pages?

Not that I would be surprised, the IoM isn't a nice organisation afterall.

It's in the same passage as conscripts. Though Kanluwen is right, they don't actually use the word child there. However, the source does state that 'Probitors' as they are called view their eventual promotion to a proper guardsman as a 'rite of manhood' rather than a simple promotion. So obviously they are not yet adults, though if you follow Kanluwen's arguement that doesn't necessarily mean they are children either.

IvanTih wrote: Abnett has actually made it quite clear over all the books he's done that the average Imperial Citizen's life is not that much better or worse than anyone's today.

I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

Found this a few weeks ago online.
Just figured I'd share.

Isn't Creed several centuries old by now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that diagram is wrong. The Cadians found him smoking cigars.

Cadians should not be included in this. Military is their way of life, it's normal on Cadia that 10 year old boy have his own Lasgun. If we are talking about the Imperum as a whole, than most worlds would be like Meridian or Calderis. And I didn't see any children there fighting in the Guard.

But I live Cadian bravado: "Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet."

Cadia is very relevant to this discussion as we are talking about the Imperium. It is also not the only garrison world in the Imperium (but is by far the most famous).

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Basically yes. Most worlds are "civilized" worlds where people live in houses or apartments and go to work. That's why in general a desperate measure like use of child soldiers is not needed or excusable for the Imperium at large.

Owain wrote:The Whiteshields would certainly explain why all Cadians are such natural soldiers; it's been drummed into them since they passed puberty. Let's not forget that conscripts under 18 were taken during the Middle Ages and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

Children are cute when they get shot.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
LOL North Korea bro? No...

It has a significant amount of propaganda (apparently) and there must a significant amount of loyalty otherwise the regime would exist.

Israel is surprisingly devoid of propaganda. You don't really need much propaganda when about 70% of men and over 50% of women are conscripted into the military at age 18. It's not like they struggled to meet recruiting quotas.

From what I've seen and heard they seem very anti-Palestinian. Or at least their government is.

Idealogically they were fine, but 18 year olds want to do 18 year old things. They do the minimum required of them. "Rosh katan" (small head) is the slang for it...basically means that whether or not you know what you SHOULD be doing, you do what you're TOLD to do. A military like that survives on the virtues of its officers. Which, I guess, is sort of reflected in the IG Codex. Heavy Weapon Teams suck without Bring It Down orders.

Consider the situations the Imperial Guard often finds itself in, I suspect its members, in a battlezone, will do whatever it can within its purview to survive, not just doing what's been ordered.

To play to the choir, I guess in the 41st Milliennium, "there is only war", so lacking Facebook and discos, I guess most 18 year olds would be interested in serving...

Most worlds are apparently not that bad. Despite that the mount of propaganda would likely inspire large numbers of people to serve.

bonerjamz wrote:Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"

I lol'd. Welcome to Dakka, and please stay.

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Amazingly, I'd quote those exact same sources back at you. The average life of an Imperial Citizen does not measure up to the livelihood of you and me (the 6% of the people in the world who have internet access). Ravenor was descriptive in his first book regarding the life of the young psyker and precisely how gakky it was (very). Additionally gladiatorial arenas and similar entertainment venues put the life of an Imperial citizen more akin to that of a medieval attitude (given the attitudes to pain and hardship).
Gudrun, (the planet that they were tracking the flecks on?) was by no means a Naboo-esque paradise. I don't even know where you are going with this example.

In Gaunts Ghosts the difficulty of life in Vervunhive is apparent, even before the siege begins. It's not comparable to a nightmarish Manufactorium world, but it doesn't measure up to the relative luxury we experience today.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Amazingly, I'd quote those exact same sources back at you. The average life of an Imperial Citizen does not measure up to the livelihood of you and me (the 6% of the people in the world who have internet access). Ravenor was descriptive in his first book regarding the life of the young psyker and precisely how gakky it was (very). Additionally gladiatorial arenas and similar entertainment venues put the life of an Imperial citizen more akin to that of a medieval attitude (given the attitudes to pain and hardship).
Gudrun, (the planet that they were tracking the flecks on?) was by no means a Naboo-esque paradise. I don't even know where you are going with this example.

In Gaunts Ghosts the difficulty of life in Vervunhive is apparent, even before the siege begins. It's not comparable to a nightmarish Manufactorium world, but it doesn't measure up to the relative luxury we experience today.

Would it not depend on the world? agricultural worlds would probably be very nice, however most of the population is probably in hives which are not so good. Ill bet children wouldn't want to leave their ag world and hive cities probably have thousand wishing they could go.

mattyrm wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

completely off topic....In Australia, you can join that army at 16 with parents permission. You probably won't get accepted, but you can apply to join. You just can't get deployed overseas until you're 18. I mention this because we have the same laws about this as you whose ancestors never got caught... but I do find it a bit hypocritical that you can join up at 16, cant drink vote or smoke until 18, and for unemployment and study benefits you're not considered to be an adult (by way of saying that you're still dependent on your parents) until you're 25.

we do have stories of guys lying about their age to join up in the world wars, but I imagine every nation that participated does.

Back on topic, the IoM wouldn't use child soldiers. They'd take children and put them into the Schola Progenium pretty much as soon as they're born, but they wouldnt send them into combat until they've developed enough muscle and stamina to fight effectively.

As for the African parallels being drawn here... terrible things happen to those children before they're able to fight. They have to be de-humanised first, and usually hooked on some form of drug. I don't think that the IoM, callous though it is, is capable of cruelty on that big a scale to raise a full regiment of child soldiers.

From all the fluff I've read, and the codex, the only references to any youngins in the fight are the Cadian Whiteshields, specific to Cadia.... and if your planet was constantly under seige, wouldn't you want to fight if you were a kid? I reckon its more like Army Cadets. The conscripts in the codex are that, conscripts. Farmers, factory workers, miners, shopkeepers, all given a lasgun and told which way to point it - and not much else. Those statistics of 4/5ths of the population... probably only mean the population able to fight. So that statistic would apply to anyone above 18 that can stand up, see lightning, hear thunder, and hold a rifle (not necessarily all at the same time), not the entire population.

I think that in Briton they let you join the army at 16 but im not sure!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If im corrrect then it can happen

To parahrase some guy in some Vietnam movie "They don't draft you when you're 18 because you're strongest here (points at bicep) they do it because that's when you're the weakest here (points at head)"

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Would it not depend on the world? agricultural worlds would probably be very nice, however most of the population is probably in hives which are not so good. Ill bet children wouldn't want to leave their ag world and hive cities probably have thousand wishing they could go.

The book 15 Hours, also in the Imperial Guard Omnibus, is a prime example. Generally it didn't appear too different from any farmland living area.

papathrax wrote:Back on topic, the IoM wouldn't use child soldiers. They'd take children and put them into the Schola Progenium pretty much as soon as they're born, but they wouldnt send them into combat until they've developed enough muscle and stamina to fight effectively.

Only the sons/daughters of Imperial Officials (not your run of the mill guardsman or factory worker) are admitted into the Schola Progenium. It's by no means a galaxy-wide orphanage for the poor and needy.

As for the African parallels being drawn here... terrible things happen to those children before they're able to fight. They have to be de-humanised first, and usually hooked on some form of drug. I don't think that the IoM, callous though it is, is capable of cruelty on that big a scale to raise a full regiment of child soldiers.

There was an example of this in Henry Zhou's Flesh and Iron, though that appeared to be only the rebels.

From all the fluff I've read, and the codex, the only references to any youngins in the fight are the Cadian Whiteshields, specific to Cadia.... and if your planet was constantly under seige, wouldn't you want to fight if you were a kid? I reckon its more like Army Cadets. The conscripts in the codex are that, conscripts. Farmers, factory workers, miners, shopkeepers, all given a lasgun and told which way to point it - and not much else. Those statistics of 4/5ths of the population... probably only mean the population able to fight. So that statistic would apply to anyone above 18 that can stand up, see lightning, hear thunder, and hold a rifle (not necessarily all at the same time), not the entire population.

Whiteshields are specific to Cadia, Probitors is the term used elsewhere.

All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

Jakka wrote:All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

\

Trench warfare with who?

From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

Jakka wrote:From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

If this is true they should be using non-lethal ammo

Or else they would never meet their self set tithe of soldiers for the imperium.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Jakka wrote:From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

If this is true they should be using non-lethal ammo

Or else they would never meet their self set tithe of soldiers for the imperium.

They produce excess recruits with their cloning/artificial womb tech. I assume they don't need to make the training non-lethal, and ensuring that it's actual combat means the survivors would be veterans by the time they're shipped off to the Guard.

Here's a really stupid question:

What does "10 years old" even mean? Is that standard terran years? Local years?

There is no one definition of "child." Many psycholgists now put the end of emotional adolescence at ~25 for males, while the age of puberty is actualy dropping.

So, on the one hand, it seems that all militaries make their ranks out of people that haven't fully mentally matured, even modern ones. On the other, it's ridiculous to think tha the IoM would be interested in soldiers that were physically underdeveloped.