Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Come on man, if someone is that upset over your unpainted figs.

Then they are the one with the prob.

Just say it to yourself a few times and you will start to feel better.

And most of all,just give that crap right back at them. They will back off or leave...its a win ether way.
If they are smart they will just play the game, as that is all it is after all.

Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.

There is one thing I have a hard time reconciling with in these kinds of discussions.

It always seems like people are required to have some sort of excuse to "legitimately" be allowed not to paint, preferably a physical handicap of some sort. Every thing else is quickly equalled to anything from "laziness" to "actively trying to spoil my pleasant WH40K-experience".


This wonderful game of ours have several facets.

I might mention The Game itself, The Fluff and The Painting as some, but not all, of these.

Why is it that nobody complains if my opponent plays badly (not emphasizing The Game)? Why doesn't anybody say; "He plays so badly I will find somebody else to play"?

Why is it that people aren't required to come up with some fluff for their army? Or write fanfiction?

Why can't people just accept that while some enjoy one (or several) aspects of the game and neglect others, other people might enjoy (and neglect) different things about the game.


Think about how you would describe a person saying that he wouldn't play a given person because he is bad at the game.
Think about if that description might apply to yourself, had the circumstances been slight altered.


Why isn't it "legitimate" to simply say; "I don't enjoy painting and find it rather pointless to prioritize" when it is perfectly OK to say; "I don't attempt to play 100%/win every time I play as I prefer the social aspect of gaming"?


The above doesn't apply as much to the OP as it does to the gaming community as a whole.

Jaon wrote:My problem is I am actually a decent painter, and have spent in excess of 5 hours on a single terminator librarian 0_0

Painting takes a hell long time, but it pays off. But if you cant thats cool, I like looking at grey models, it makes it simpler to identify their wargear and shows detail better. I wouldnt mind at all fighting a grey army.

Haha, I wish I could say that 5 hours was a long time on one model for me. I usually don't keep track, but for giggles I clocked 10 guardians and their platform in at about 100 hours.

It takes about 1000 hours of practice to become good at something, if I recall the scientific anecdote correctly, and this was in conjunction with repetitive art such as music (specifically piano). I'd imagine that it's going to be a bit more than 1000 hours for figure painting since it's broken up in so very many different stages.

In either case. I'd say that as long as you do your best, it's good enough. If that means a 90% grey army with the other 10% looking 'orrible, that's cool as long as that's the best you can do with the skill and time you have to spend on the hobby.

Of course, there are short cuts to make the dull grey look a tiny bit better on the table, and it's nice if you show the token appreciation of taking one or two of them.

If, on the other hand your army is grey because you just can't be arsed, than that's far from fine - that army is a two-finger salute to everyone who makes the effort.
If it's because your confidence in your skill is low, on the other hand, we'll have to work on the confidence part.

P.S. There's industrial robots that can handle painting

Steelmage99 wrote:It always seems like people are required to have some sort of excuse to "legitimately" be allowed not to paint, preferably a physical handicap of some sort. Every thing else is quickly equalled to anything from "laziness" to "actively trying to spoil my pleasant WH40K-experience".

By some, but certainly not all people.

Why is it that nobody complains if my opponent plays badly (not emphasizing The Game)? Why doesn't anybody say; "He plays so badly I will find somebody else to play"?

Actually I think this happens more than you think. Maybe not explicity, but I stopped going to open play at various stores, on various days, because I knew I wouldn't get a challenging game.

Why is it that people aren't required to come up with some fluff for their army? Or write fanfiction?

Because reading fluff/fiction is an active process, while seeing a painted army is passive. You can also enjoy the look of a painted army while playing against it. You can't really read fluff while playing.

Why can't people just accept that while some enjoy one (or several) aspects of the game and neglect others, other people might enjoy (and neglect) different things about the game.

I think most people do. But if the aspect of the hobby you enjoy is the visual aspect of watching two painted armies on the table, you need to find somebody with a painted army.

Think about how you would describe a person saying that he wouldn't play a given person because he is bad at the game.
Think about if that description might apply to yourself, had the circumstances been slight altered.

As I said, I think this goes on. I've turned down games (over a store forum, not in person) because I knew I would there would not be a tactical challenge worth driivng down and giving up four hours for.

Why isn't it "legitimate" to simply say; "I don't enjoy painting and find it rather pointless to prioritize" when it is perfectly OK to say; "I don't attempt to play 100%/win every time I play as I prefer the social aspect of gaming"?

You're confusing quality for effort here. Not painting an army isn't like not playing well. Painting an army poorly is like playing poorly. Not painting is like not playing, and nobody complains that htey have to play a guy that doesn't play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:It takes about 1000 hours of practice to become good at something, if I recall the scientific anecdote correctly, and this was in conjunction with repetitive art such as music (specifically piano). I'd imagine that it's going to be a bit more than 1000 hours for figure painting since it's broken up in so very many different stages.

I think it's actually the 10,000 rule:

http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt1.html

BlueDagger wrote:
Haha, I wish I could say that 5 hours was a long time on one model for me. I usually don't keep track, but for giggles I clocked 10 guardians and their platform in at about 100 hours.

Perseverance is much more important to painting than any other artistic mumbo-jumbo.

R10T wrote:If your not planning on ever playing any tourneys, don't sweat it. They will be easier to sell later.

While this is very true and actually outstanding advice...

I prefer playing against painted armies. In many cases I find that the type of person who takes the time to paint their models is going to give me a more challenging and enjoyable game than someone with a gray and metal flavor of the month army. That's based on purely anecdotal evidence and obviously excludes those who perhaps just bought their armies or something similar.

Just being honest.

mugginns wrote:
In the end this is a hobby. Not painting any of your models ever (or having them painted, or even just making a stab at basecoating everything) means anybody who ever plays you (note: if you're painting slowly, you're still painting!) is not seeing the battlefield how they want to see it.

Your hobby is my game. Like I said; once you start unpacking your minis and placing them on the table, it's a game...unless you know a hobby that requires dice rolling and arguing over rules.

Well I wouldnt refuse to play someone with a gray army, but I think I enjoy the game more if Im facing off against a painted army. This has simply to do with me getting more into the right feeling when its not just a couple of gray blobs in front of me.

However, I think you should just keep playing your gray army and slowly paint one model at a time at the side. Number those models (under the black platform they stand on), and when you have painted maybe 5-10 models I'm sure you'll see that you have made some progress when you compare, just dont expect it to be GD standard.
If you still dont feel like this is your thing, try some dipping or heavy washing techniques.

Polonius wrote:Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.

Apple, meet Orange. Seriously? Equating an informal table-top game to a serious, hopefully, once in a lifetime event in someone's life is ludicrous. I'm happy if my opponent has bathed and doesn't have a neckbeard with crumbs falling out of it, I could care less what their toys look like.

If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.

agnosto wrote:

Polonius wrote:Never painting your army is kind of like showing up a semi-formal wedding reception in jeans: yeah, if you bring a gift and do the chicken dance and wish the couple well and try to hook up with the brides friend, you've really done what your supposed to do. Nobody is going to stop you, but it's still tacky.

Apple, meet Orange. Seriously? Equating an informal table-top game to a serious, hopefully, once in a lifetime event in someone's life is ludicrous. I'm happy if my opponent has bathed and doesn't have a neckbeard with crumbs falling out of it, I could care less what their toys look like.

If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.

Agnost, meet strawman.

I'm not equating the events, I'm equating the behavior. Wargaming is a hobby, and a culture, and for many people, painting armies is a big part of the culture. I've never been to a wedding where they'll toss a person out for not dressing properly. But people are allowed to think that it's tacky, right? Well, if they social expectation for gaming is to paint, and you don't, why shouldn't people think that you're flouting convention?

I'm glad you don't care if your opponent's army is painted. I prefer it, but I really don't mind at all either. The point is that some people do. And I dont' thinke they get "butt-hurt" so much as they figure they can spend their gaming time doing what they enjoy: playing painted armies. If a person's priorities are to play the kind of games they like, and if they can't, to persue other interests rather than play unpainted, I think that's a fine way to be.

agnosto wrote:If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.

I don't think it's that broad of an issue.

One can prefer to play against painted armies without having skewed life priorities.

Polonius wrote:If a person's priorities are to play the kind of games they like, and if they can't, to persue other interests rather than play unpainted, I think that's a fine way to be.

Sometimes I wonder if Polonius would take a small stipend so that I can tell him what I'm thinking and he can type it out with this type of eloquence and then I'll post that instead.

Which is to say, +1.

Monster Rain wrote:

agnosto wrote:If someone gets so butt-hurt over another person's little plastic army men being unpainted, they really need to take a long look at their life and the priorities therein.

I don't think it's that broad of an issue.

One can prefer to play against painted armies without having skewed life priorities.

I'd argue that if you have a busy life, only playing games of 40k that you'll really enjoy seems like having a great sense of priorities.

Yeah but there ugly

Monster Rain wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Polonius would take a small stipend so that I can tell him what I'm thinking and he can type it out with this type of eloquence and then I'll post that instead.

Which is to say, +1.

The feds beat you to it. I literally spend all day writing explanations for why people are or aren't disabled. Other people make the call, I write it up.

lucasbuffalo wrote:That actually looks really cool. Dipping is the one thing I want to try and haven't been able to yet. I've just seen so many beautiful paint jobs that I hate to get a dipping system and find out I suck at it too. I've spend over 100 in GW brush and paints just to watch them sit in my modeling box or let my friends use/have them.

I thoroughly recommend you try this. I'm not TOO bad at painting, but not great. However, I certainly don't have time to spend painting all the details on models. Things like drybrudhing, washing, dipping, and discovering decent spraypaint ranges changed the whole way I work. Myself and friends have even tried to figure out the best ways of bringing whole armies up to tabletop standard in a weekend.

One thing to remember is that painting is also a way to personalise your army - which is another fun element to the game (assuming, since your armies are grey, you haven't tried it). And that, there are other things involved in painting that you might enjoy - maybe you'll find that you like doing scenic bases, for example.

Before I start an army, I figure out exactly what I need to 'instantly' get my models to tabletop standard without having to so any real 'detail painting'. Usually, these involve techniques that require no real painting skill to achieve.

Post the army you want to paint here or the colour scheme you've failed to achieve, and I'm sure I (and others) could suggest ways that you could end up with a painted army without having to spend ages developing painting skill!

Nerd-snobbery? Wow, I've heard of everything and here I thought seeing fried cockroaches for sale by street vendors in Bangkok was going to be the end.

I've honestly never heard anyone demean someone else in the FLGS that I visit because they had an unpainted army nor have I ever heard of anyone refusing to play that person. The closest I've ever been was someone mentioned how shiney my Ogres are (I dip them after painting) to which I responded that I like them shiney, kind of like body builders but with girth.

To be quite honest, regardless of what your personal convictions are on the subject, it's not exactly polite (some might even say "tacky") to ridicule someone for not sharing your views.

I can see both sides of the argument and understand both perspectives; however, I will never attempt to climb up on a horse high enough to try and tell another person what they should do with their property.

To be honest, I still have tons of unpainted minis. I am making progress however. I wouldn't ever refuse to play someone because their models were unpainted. However, my painted armies will never see the battlefield with a dreadknight

I'm not a good painter, either. I have used dipping and army painter basecoats to my advantage, though. I really think people should make a good effort before giving up. I've found in the past that the people who say "I don't want to paint and you can't make me I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME!" are usually the types that make it un-fun to play against.

Your hobby is my game. Like I said; once you start unpacking your minis and placing them on the table, it's a game...unless you know a hobby that requires dice rolling and arguing over rules.

Yeah, but you'd never ever put the minis on the table if you couldn't put them together. Hobby element right there! Might as well play with paper soldiers, lol.

agnosto wrote:Nerd-snobbery? Wow, I've heard of everything and here I thought seeing fried cockroaches for sale by street vendors in Bangkok was going to be the end.

I've honestly never heard anyone demean someone else in the FLGS that I visit because they had an unpainted army nor have I ever heard of anyone refusing to play that person. The closest I've ever been was someone mentioned how shiney my Ogres are (I dip them after painting) to which I responded that I like them shiney, kind of like body builders but with girth.

To be quite honest, regardless of what your personal convictions are on the subject, it's not exactly polite (some might even say "tacky") to ridicule someone for not sharing your views.

I can see both sides of the argument and understand both perspectives; however, I will never attempt to climb up on a horse high enough to try and tell another person what they should do with their property.

I don't think anybody is. I'm not advocating that anybody call somebody out on the subject, but there's a pretty big gap between saying "sorry, I prefer to play painted armies. No offense," and ridiculing somebody.

Practice with a few minis your willing to sacrifice so to get an idea on how ya wanna paint em (if ever), and once ya do start painting your army... take all the time you need.

Being an ork player, i have a long way to go till my army is done... so my thoughts are why rush it!

Enjoy your army and by all means... practice (if ya want )

Polonius wrote:
I don't think anybody is. I'm not advocating that anybody call somebody out on the subject, but there's a pretty big gap between saying "sorry, I prefer to play painted armies. No offense," and ridiculing somebody.

And that would be fine but I was operating off of the OP's statement (emphasis mine):

I'm a really pleasant person I like to think. I give all my friends rides to the gaming store, and even some players that I don't know very well at my LGS have gotten a ride from me in the past. At my LGS having a gray army is "lame" but it definitely isn't considered a sign that some one is a bad person as it seems to be on Dakka. I know the responses to this, I've read that before. "Just pay some one to paint it." Unfortunately, the only painters who paint up much better than my crappy painting are either too busy to do my paint job or charge more than the models themselves to do so.

My point is. I won't think someone lazy or any other label simply because they prioritize their life differently from my own. If he/she were to say something like the above while we were playing, I might ask him/her if they would like a few pointers from another, mostly hopeless, painter on some shortcuts and other means to make a passably painted, tabletop army. The only way to get through life, collectively, is to support one another and tearing someone down is not constructive.

Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual. Many people here have offered support and some constructive comments which the OP might take to heart and implement; however, not one of us is so perfect that we can deign to tell them how to live their lives or what they should do with their time or their property.

I've said my view as clearly as I'm able. It's fine if others do not agree, that's one of the great things about living in a (mostly) free society, we can disagree with each other. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

First off I'm not saying this is true in all cases, ok? I think part of the problem is that people continually compare their painting skills to the high quality painting that they see on the websites and get discouraged very easily when they can't match it. What I will say to anybody who feels that they can't paint very well is this; aim for a neat paint job, as long as each colour is in its right area don't give a damn about painstaking detail. A tidy army will look just as good on the battlefield as a well detailed one. C'mon, you at least need to make the effort to paint to get good at it. Plus it looks better on the tabletop. I knew a player who had a Dark Elf army black undercoated. The problem on the table was that his opponent had to continually ask what each unit was thus slowing the game down.

Playing orks, I feel your pain. Now, i've only painted a few models, and though they aren't up to Team 'eavy metal's standards, i'm very proud of them. However, most of my army is gray right now. The only thing I can do to keep a gray army off the table is to have them already based. Meaning a black army, instead of a gray one. Which seems to work for the people I play against.

agnosto wrote:
Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual.

has that actually happened? I think the word lazy was used once in this thread, and that was in the context of saying that skill isn't inherent, and needs to be developed.

Nobody is telling anybody how to structure their life. there is sort of a collective calling of BS that there are people who literally do not have the time to paint, but what I've read in this thread has rarely been vicious or judgemental. Maybe I've missed it.

Yeah, there's not a lot of sympathy here for busy people. But I think the comments have been measured, not derisive.

If you don't want to paint your models, play grey knights.

Polonius wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Every time this topic comes up there are the inevitable hobbyists that deride the non-painters and tell them to quit or stop being lazy or even tell them to reorganize their life priorities. To me that is the pinnacle of egoism; to think that a person is so inferior that they can be told how to organize their life by another individual.

has that actually happened? I think the word lazy was used once in this thread, and that was in the context of saying that skill isn't inherent, and needs to be developed.

Nobody is telling anybody how to structure their life. there is sort of a collective calling of BS that there are people who literally do not have the time to paint, but what I've read in this thread has rarely been vicious or judgemental. Maybe I've missed it.

Yeah, there's not a lot of sympathy here for busy people. But I think the comments have been measured, not derisive.

That's true but I wasn't just talking about this thread. People are telling the OP what to do; don't watch TV or a movie, make time, etc. If, for whatever reason a person doesn't want to paint, accept it and move on.

I would think that by the simple fact that the OP's impression that posters on Dakka think that non-painters are bad people is a fair indication that not all responses in these types of threads is measured.

As a community, I think we need to be inclusive because it just doesn't make sense for nerds in a niche market to be exclusive. It's kind of like the wargamer vs. furry vs. LARPer debates.

@Mr Nobody,
He could always do Necrons and dip the warriors in chrome paint.... easiest army paint-job ever.

Shame is that most elitists would say those Necrons aren't even barely table top quality.

I'm a big fan of the theory that it's hard enough to find a group of 40k players. Play with whoever you can as long as they're not a moron or completely obnoxious.

This thread has inspired me. I was going to paint my Space Wolves very slowly but I'll do what I really want to and instead start a third grey army.

stalkerzero wrote:Shame is that most elitists would say those Necrons aren't even barely table top quality.

It sounds here more like you're arguing against a made-up boogeyman as an excuse. That Necron looks great. The fact that such a paintjob can be cranked out quickly is great news for the lazy painter (like me).

I think it's well worth learning some basic speed techniques for anyone.

Starting with a can of colored spray primer (like the army painters stuff, or even GW or PP white), doing some basic single-color basecoating, then adding a little drybrushing and a head-to-toe wash, you can produce a basic tabletop quality army in literally a few hours' work.

I'm not a commissioned painter (like the guys who crank out entire high-quality armies every week), but I could certainly get 1500-2000pts of a SM army done in a week while working full time and spending time with the wife, starting with assembled models with the mold lines having been cleaned.

Almost anyone can do the same with a little bit of organization and learning a few simple tips online.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:I'm not equating the events, I'm equating the behavior. Wargaming is a hobby, and a culture, and for many people, painting armies is a big part of the culture. I've never been to a wedding where they'll toss a person out for not dressing properly. But people are allowed to think that it's tacky, right? Well, if they social expectation for gaming is to paint, and you don't, why shouldn't people think that you're flouting convention?

As I'm sure you're aware, there's an entire culture of historical wargamers who traditionally don't put an unpainted model on the table for a game. It's just not done. A friend of mine switched over to doing that from playing 40k, and it was an adjustment. There's a group of historicals guys who play most weeks at my local store on the same night as my 40k night; they play a bunch of different systems and scales. American Civil War 25mm, Napoleonics in 15mm or 25mm, WWII 15mm, English Civil War 25mm, etc. I see them bring different armies nearly every week, and they're all fully painted. Meanwhile here I sit having played WH & 40k for over ten years, and I only have four fully painted armies. Really gives you a different perspective.

I've tried my hand again (thanks for the encouragement and tips) and with free hand painting, I'm actually noticing improvements. My detail work is still garbage (shaky hand mcshakerson) but, with some calm breathing, etc. even that is improving. Pics when I get home again and can access my camera.