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In the GK codex, GK vehicles have access to psychic powers and count as psykers for the purposes of psychic tests.

Psychic tests yes, using psychic powers by your interpretation no.

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Contradict yourself here as here you're saying they are psykers not just being psykers for psychic tests.

Flinger for your point to be correct it would have to read that vehicles are treated as being a psyker, and leadership xx for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods. The comma would break the psyker and the leadership up and make it so that the vehicle would be treated as a psyker at all times but it isnt written that way there is no comma and therefore the two go together and are only for the purpose of psychic tests and hoods.

You're reading requires a comma after LD 10. With no comma it is perfectly correct to read the sentence either way.

So by RaW either:

a) They are instantly removed by CoM
b) They can't use any psychic powers

Which is it?

FlingitNow wrote:

In the GK codex, mastery level indicates how many psychic powers a character can use per turn. GK vehicles are mastery level 1. GK vehicles may use a single psychic power per turn.

Contradict yourself here as here you're saying they are psykers not just being psykers for psychic tests.

General rule: Only psykers may use psychic powers.

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods. Ta-daah! Non-psyker casting psychic powers within the limits of the rules!

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

FlingitNow wrote:

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

Ignore my earlier argument, I was misinformed, the mastery levels indeed do not affect the part of the rules that we are debating.

What I'd like to know, however, is where it says that you have to be a psyker to use a psychic power? All the rulebook says is that you have to be a psyker to be allowed to take a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests, thus they're allowed to cast psychic powers without being a psyker all the time.

Just to touch on how people are reading the sentence. It actually reads:

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psycher (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods."


Several people are treating the sentence as if it were written this way:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psycher and is leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.




The addition of the word "is" in the second sentence changes the meaning and is how several people in this thread seem to be reading the rule.

The first sentence (as the actual RAW) really does give both of the parts of the sentence in question (psycher , leadersip 10) a condition (for purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods). It truly is a clear english sentence if one breaks it down according to the traditional rules of english language usage. The last few decades the common usage has deteriorated a great deal of course.

If the sentence were written the second way, then we do have separate clauses and the vehicle could be seen as always being a psycher.



Sliggoth

PS The comma is far overused in language today (still remember getting red marks for overuse waaaaay back when).

And this by no means addresses the question as to whether or not the vehicle really can use a psychic power by the RAW.

Two thumbs up for you, my friend. It seems reading ability is the biggest factor in ability to properly interpret the rules.

FlingitNow wrote:
Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule?

GK Codex, pg 33.

Fortitude: The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psychoreactive armour plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights' Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful,[...]

The conditions under which the power may be used are listed in the GK codex. The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

FlingitNow wrote:

Specific rule: Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers (thanks to mastery level 1) despite not being psykers, counting as a psyker for the purpouses of the tests and psychic hoods.

Where is the rule that allows them to use powers? Can you quote this rule? I can see that they are psykers for psychic tests and hoods but no rule that alloiws them to get to that part of the utilising a psychic power process unless they are always psykers...

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it? All I can see is that in order to cast a psychic power, you must pass a psychic test. Doesn't state anywhere that you have to be a Psyker.

GK vehicles ARE psykers for the purposes of psychic tests (AKA Casting Psychic powers)

The vehicle is trated as a psyker for casting Psychic powers AKA Psychic tests.

So even though it doesnt say "in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker." vehicle can still use their psychic power.

It even says "Grey Knight vehicles may use psychic powers", that rule lets them psyker or not.

The conditions under which the power may be used are listed in the GK codex.

The conditions under which a psyker can caste a psychic power.

The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

No it doesn't. Otherwise power weapons wouldn't work.

GK vehicles ARE psykers for the purposes of psychic tests (AKA Casting Psychic powers)

Passing a psychic test is not the same as casting (or using) a psychic power. It is part of the process. Just like rolling to hit isn't the same as firing a weapon. So if you counted as having a ranged weapon for rolling to hit would you be able to shoot? No because you could declare your shooting attack or select a target.

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it?

BrB pg 50 "Pskers can use one psychic power per player turn."

FlingitNow wrote:

The BGB specifically says that codexes override the general rules.

No it doesn't. Otherwise power weapons wouldn't work.

What part of "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes" is vague or hard to understand?

In the BGB, it says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. In the GK codex, it says GK vehicles have the Fortitude special ability and may use it during their movement phase. Because of the quote in the BGB, the GK codex takes precedence.

This has nothing to do with power weapons.

In the BGB, it says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. In the GK codex, it says GK vehicles have the Fortitude special ability and may use it during their movement phase. Because of the quote in the BGB, the GK codex takes precedence.

Not specifically enough. It describes how a psychic power is used within the rules of the psychic power. It does not state which vehicle uses the power and unless it is a psyker it can't. Just because you believe that no-GK vehicles are psykers and thus this must be the rule allowing them to cast a power doesn't make it so. All psychic powers describe how they are cast that doesn't mean non-psykers can now cast them or that Psykers can cast as many as they want or any of the other restrictions that normally apply to casting a psychic power unless they specifically override those restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

What part of "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes" is vague or hard to understand?

Exceptions yes it doesn't blanket that Codex overrides rulebook as you initially claimed.

FlingitNow wrote:

You keep hammering this point over and over that some rule exists that in order to use a psychic power, you must be a psyker. Where is that rule? Can you quote it?

BrB pg 50 "Pskers can use one psychic power per player turn."

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

'Can use' does not equal 'have to be one or you can't'. Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

Edit: to clarify, all that the rules about Psychic Powers state is that:
A. You need to pass a Psychic test to be able to use it.
B. As a Psychic test is a Leadership test, you need a Leadership value to be able to pass it.

And of course, logic dictates:
C. You need to have a Psychic power to be able to use it.
D. You need a rule that states how many powers you can use.

Psychic Pilot gives you a Leadership value of 10 and Psyker Level of 1 for the purposes of Psychic tests, so that covers point A, B and D. And C is covered by the inclusion of a Psychic power in the vehicle's unit entry. So by RAW a GK vehicle can cast powers just fine thank you.

Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

You do in a permissive ruleset.

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

Gues what no it isn't...

Lelith Hesperax is neither a Monstrous Creature, nor does she have a power weapon, and yet armor saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by her. Why? Because her rules say so.

GK vehicles are only psykers for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods, and yet they may use an ability that's labeled a "psychic power." Why? Because their rules say so.

FlingitNow wrote:

Monkeys can eat bananas, but you don't have to be a monkey for it to be possible to eat a banana.

You do in a permissive ruleset.

So? It just says Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. Guess what, that's also the Psychic Pilot says.

Gues what no it isn't...

The GK Psychic Pilot and Psyker Mastery rules give you permission to use X number of psychic powers. There, permission granted.

GK vehicles are only psykers for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods, and yet they may use an ability that's labeled a "psychic power." Why? Because their rules say so.

Well thats the point isn't it the rule could be read eitherway and that they could be psykers all the time and Ld10 for psychic tests and hoods.

Your way of reading the rule means that yes they have psychic powers and Ld10 for Psychic tests but no they can't use those psychic powers. The other reading is that they are psykers and can use their psychic powers like normal psykers using the Ld of 10 for the test and any psychichoods around.

Remember the rules never give a model with psychic pilot specific permission to use a power. So unless they are psykers (as psychic pilots syas they are) they can't use those powers. If they are psykers they auto-go byebye ot CoM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The GK Psychic Pilot and Psyker Mastery rules give you permission to use X number of psychic powers. There, permission granted.

Yes but you only have the permission to use psychic powers whilst you are counting as mastery Lvl1. Which you are stating you do not count as until you come to a psychic test which means you can never get that far.

I could argue that GK vehicles are psykers, but realy i dont need to as there is no other way to read the rule.

This is exemplified by the fact that in order to try prove their point people are removing or adding words to the actual rule and posting that as "proof"


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In both logic and english grammer AND is used to conjugate two clauses. Notice the last bit, two clauses not one. So the first clause is (1) the vehicle is a psyker AND (2) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. Both of those clauses are true.

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This is raw. In the end though does it real matter? No TO is going to rule that the vehicles are automaticaly removed so lets all just laugh at GW and be on our way.

Solourus wrote:


----------------------------------------------------------------

In both logic and english grammer AND is used to conjugate two clauses. Notice the last bit, two clauses not one. So the first clause is (1) the vehicle is a psyker AND (2) Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. Both of those clauses are true.

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http://www.textdoctor.com/2011/03/third-grammar-lesson-of-the-year-using-a-comma-to-separate-two-independent-clauses/

The lack of a comma indicates that the entire statement is one independent clause, hence the belief that the vehicle is a "Psyker and leadership 10" for the two purposes given. It has nothing to do with adding to/taking from the sentence. It has to do with reading the sentence as it is actually written.

Unless I'm missing something. If so, enlighten me.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What I'd like to know, however, is where it says that you have to be a psyker to use a psychic power? All the rulebook says is that you have to be a psyker to be allowed to take a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles are psykers for the purpouses of psychic tests, thus they're allowed to cast psychic powers without being a psyker all the time.

(Quoted myself because the bolded part hasn't been adressed properly)

Fortitude, on page 33 of the Grey Knight Codex, further states that: "[...]This power may be used in the Grey Knight's Movement Phase[...]". There, you're allowed to use the power because the Codex says so. The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule. QED.

lucasbuffalo wrote:
The lack of a comma indicates that the entire statement is one independent clause, hence the belief that the vehicle is a "Psyker and leadership 10" for the two purposes given. It has nothing to do with adding to/taking from the sentence. It has to do with reading the sentence as it is actually written.

Commas are often not used in publications, including litterature and newspapers. That said commas are unreliable so its best not to use them to define weather or not it is an independant clause, so lets use the proper definition

"An independent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought. An independent clause is a sentence"

Hmm, I actualy may be wrong here as there is only one subject, the vehicle. Unless "leadership" is the second subject which would make sense, as psychic tests are taken against leadership (being the subject of the test). However thats bit of a nebulous argument and 40k specific. So in the end I guess im now converted to not quite sure on this topic, I guess ill sleep on it.

lucasbuffalo wrote:

Unless I'm missing something. If so, enlighten me.

If you wish. From your statments I can make two conclusions

1) Your actual argument does not make sense ( Commas are used as a convention, but the lack of, or presense of a comma does not make something an independant clause).

2) Your conclusion might be correct, ill assume you were just tring to make the same argument as I have above.

Cheers

- Solourus

The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule.

This has been explained several times now. Please read the previous page where your point is addressed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hmm, I actualy may be wrong here as there is only one subject, the vehicle. Unless "leadership" is the second subject which would make sense, as psychic tests are taken against leadership (being the subject of the test). However thats bit of a nebulous argument and 40k specific.

Yes how true how ridiculous of people to assume the sentence is 40k specific...

FlingitNow wrote:

The only hurdle in your way is that the BRB states you have to be a psyker to use psychic powers, something that is solved by the psychic pilot rule.

This has been explained several times now. Please read the previous page where your point is addressed.

Except it hasn't. The only requirement for casting psychic powers is that you have a psychic power to cast and that you pass a psychic test. Grey Knight vehicles have a psychic power, and count as psykers for the psychic test, which is the only thing required to cast a psychic power.

If this message sounds redundant, it's because it's brought to you by the department of redundancy department, who brought you this message (cheers to the Dakkanaut that posted that line first!).

Psychic Pilot overrides the requirement to be a psyker to cast a psychic power.


the Vehicle only counts as a psyker for psychic tests and hoods.


they may FAQ Crucible to affect them, but it would likely be Perils instead of 'remove'

Passing a psychic test is not the same as casting (or using) a psychic power. It is part of the process. Just like rolling to hit isn't the same as firing a weapon. So if you counted as having a ranged weapon for rolling to hit would you be able to shoot? No because you could declare your shooting attack or select a target.

If you are "only" passing a Ld test and not casting said psychic power per se then I see no reason why you (the GK vehicle that is) would be susceptible to a perils hit.
If you are risking perils then I´l pretty damn call it casting a psychic power!

There is nothing in the psychic pilot rule that says "not a psyker but may use the following psychic power as if one.."

or anything to that affect.

there is nothing in the psychic pilot rule that says they are only psykers for the purposes of xxx

there is nothing in the GK codex that says they may use psychic powers despite not being psykers..

there is nothing in the GK codex that says at anytime they are not a psyker or only during certain times are they a psyker.

it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

so here we have a unit that IS a psyker

and the same unit gets to be LD 10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods.

if the ruleset is permissive than they are psykers all the time but can only use their LD 10 for psychic hoods and psychic tests.

There is no permission in their rules to be a psyker some time but not all the time, there is no permission in their rules to use psychic powers but not be a psyker.

If the rules set is permissive then CoM allows you to remove a model that is a psyker if it does not pass a LD test.

RAW the model is removed since it does not get to roll to pass its LD test as per its rules on what it can use its LD for.

blaktoof wrote:
it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

So close, and yet so wrong. What it says is "they're psykers and Ld10 for the purpouses of blah blah blah". That isn't the same thing that you wrote, is it?

There's no place in the BRB that requires you to be a psyker to cast a psychic power, you just have to be one to pass a psychic test. Furthermore, page 33 states that "[...]You may use this power in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase[...]". Thus, not only are you lying, you're wrong.

Interesting arguments here....but I feel like something important is being left out.

The GK advocates here are saying "Codex rules override general rules."

That is true. However, there is no conflict between the GK codex and the general rulebook psyker entry.

The GK codex doesn't say, "GK vehicles are not psykers except when...." to create a conflict. Nor does it say, "GK vehicles are ONLY psykers when..." which would create a conflict....and which is how you guys seem to be trying to interpret it.

If that was the intent, it would have been very easy to write, "GK vehicles count as LD10 psykers only for the purposes of...." instead of "GK vehicles count as psykers AND..."

The most important thing to note though is that regardless of how it gets argued on Dakka, there is only one major event TO that I know of that isn't going to rule that GK vehicles are psykers and take LD10 tests against anti-psyker results. And I hold faith that he'll change his mind.

Just thought I would point this out. None of the vehicles in the GK codex contain the special rule Psyker. In the Blood Angels codex page 29 under special rules "Furioso Librarian also has Psyker: blah blah. So there we have a vehicle which is clearly defined as a psyker.

Dark Eldar Page 60 Crucible of Malediction: Every psyker within...

GK vehicles should not be considered pskyers normally otherwise they would have it listed under their special rules.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
it however does say that "they are psykers and for the purposes of blah blah blah"

So close, and yet so wrong. What it says is "they're psykers and Ld10 for the purpouses of blah blah blah". That isn't the same thing that you wrote, is it?

There's no place in the BRB that requires you to be a psyker to cast a psychic power, you just have to be one to pass a psychic test. Furthermore, page 33 states that "[...]You may use this power in the Grey Knights' Movement Phase[...]". Thus, not only are you lying, you're wrong.

that's still no change in permission.

They are psykers, yep. same as what I wrote.

And for the purposes of psychic hoods and psychic tests ld 10

cool!

So now they get to have an LD value for psychic tests and psychic hoods!

However they are still psykers.

So as per their rules they are not allowed to take an LD test to save against CoM, they are psykers AND are ld 10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods, they have no permission to use their ld for anything else. They are not only psykers sometimes, nor can they use psychic powers without being psykers- because they are actually psykers as per their rules, so they auto fail because their rules (thank you matt ward) does not allow them to use their LD for anything but psychic tests and psychic hoods RAW and they are psykers RAW. Just like if a GK player had 3 rad grenades in assault with a unit that was toughness 3, currently RAW they would auto be wounded. Or possibly auto die.... whatever.


i actually think matt ward has never read a codex other than space marines ones and has no idea what other units or wargear other armies have. You can notice this in his whole slowed plasma siphon rules.