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1. Less long ranged fire support. No lie, triple psyammo rifleman dreads throwing out double twin-linked autocannons at +1 strength 48" every turn and most likely ignoring stunned and shaken results on themselves is brutal against AV10 open-topped. From another perspective, its underwhelming. That's three targets getting shot at. Compared to any other competitive codex it is rather underwhelming in terms of volume of fire.

I think this is overlooking the very good IMO 50 point razorback with 36" range, three shot, str 6, twin linked guns.

murdog wrote:Since it is ranged weaponry that influences your decision to reserve when going second, and this is your least favourable deployment, would you say that ranged armies are generally your biggest challenge?

What about this?

Dashofpepper wrote:

murdog wrote:what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?

I can only really give army and board specific advice, and I do when I can.

In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer." With murder in my eyes and righteous indignation pouring from my ears at the affront of having to play against inferior aliens....cower.

Asking how to make a game out of a match against Dark Eldar is like being in a prison cell surrounded by 10 big horny guys who each outweigh you by 100 pounds and asking "What can I do to make this a good fight?" You're going to get violated, and your best bet is to go willingly to get it over with faster.

Ok. Well. I'm one of those wierd guys who keeps getting back up and trying again, in spite of failure and adversity. A person who would prefer to lose to a better player than beat a poorer one. So your murder, indignation, and intent to violate doesn't deter me from putting up a fight. I mean, it is just a game! That's my gameface! (For one thing, you might as well set up - 1/6 chance to steal the initiative and get a game, at least!)

Dashofpepper wrote:In truth, game-face aside, there's no general advice to give except what is repeated often throughout Dakka about how to beat DE.

I'm not really after general advice on how to beat DE, i realize that's not the point of your thread (which is great by the way, and I'm not trying to annoy you with stupid questions, I'm actually interested). With respect, I'm asking you to elaborate just a little on the deployment part. Reserving is out, and there are a few general strategies one could employ when deploying to go second against you, such as: castling; refusing a flank; mutually supporting positions that aren't right beside each other; speedbumps; far back as possible; reserving part of the force; etc... Of course army/terrain/mission will determine the tactics for the opposing commander, but would any of that make any difference to you, or is there an approach you would consider more difficult - ooops sorry - less easy to... to... completely annihilate?.

For instance, I have an army of Guard which is fun and fluffy, but definitely not Dakka-approved. I'm still learning its strenths and weaknesses, and I'm going for a balanced list. (I posted a list recently in Tactics - 2000pt IG Heavy Infantry Company). I've got like a hundred men, bristling with long-rang firepower, backed up by 7 various vehicles (a few transports and pie). If I went second against you, I guess I would deploy my infantry in a classic gunline style, far back to attempt to avoid first-turn charges, mutually supporting yet careful of easy multicharges/raider fly-overs, and a msu style so that hopefully as you smash them, they're gone and your units are left in the open, in front of my forces. With like 12+ anti-vehicle heavy weapons I'm pretty sure I'll do *some* damage to your vehicles, and I have anti-infantry capability in the foot troops as well. Depending on terrain and deployment type I would likely hold the vehicles in reserve, expecting 3 on turn 2. That way they're sure to get a shot off as they come on, and I'm pretty much assured a spot to come on because I can always move infantry if I have to.

I'm not saying I would win, or that I'd even have a chance. If I'm asking for/providing too much detail just tell me and I'll shut up. It's a good thread and I want to push it for maximum info. Thanks!

And Part III is posted.

The speed segment is good. It can easily be applied to mech eldar as well aside from the assaulting part.

@Dash
You should consider changing your DE record to only include games with the 5th ed book. The army changed enough from the 3rd ed book to really be considered a different army.

murdog wrote:What I'm trying to ask is: what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?

Bring DE yourself.... at least you have a better chance then!!

Awesome guide so far Dash, its a great read and good for new DE players!

The speed part is good! gives me plenty of options on what to do with my flatout movement

Interesting. I was unfamiliar with the 'deploy sideways and then rotate' trick. I'll keep that one in mind from now on.

Thanks Dash.

Manimal, my wych cult is still a wych cult.

Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.

All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...

I would like to say thanks dash for the time and effort taken to make such a usefull thread! I have learned alot just from reading this.

Genglash wrote:I would like to say thanks dash for the time and effort taken to make such a usefull thread! I have learned alot just from reading this.

I aim to help. More to come.

Dashofpepper wrote:Manimal, my wych cult is still a wych cult.

Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.

All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...

I agree your army changed very little compared to most, but you have to be missing those 5 point blasters in wych squads...

Exergy wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Manimal, my wych cult is still a wych cult.

Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.

All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...

I agree your army changed very little compared to most, but you have to be missing those 5 point blasters in wych squads...

Yes....yes those were nice. Two per squad of five. :(

What are the top 5 better partners for a Dark Eldar in a tournament.

I must assume:

1 Dark Eldar
2 Eldar
3 Ork
4 ???
5 ???

IG w/ Manticores, SW w/ Long Fangs, any razorback spam, DOA. I wouldn't say orks because you would have too many things trying to rush into CC. You would need things to sit back and shoot with maybe 1 deathstar to linebreak while the wyches cover the frontlines.

Tavitin wrote:What are the top 5 better partners for a Dark Eldar in a tournament.

I must assume:

1 Dark Eldar
2 Eldar
3 Ork
4 ???
5 ???

If I can go ahead and just disagree with Ashenshugar and advise pretty much the opposite of him. =D

#1: The absolute best partner for Dark Eldar in a tournament is no one. Two generals on the field are never going to be as competent in making unified decisions as one general would be.

#2: For a team to be successful, someone needs to swallow their pride and be the subordinate. General and Adjutant. An adjutant plays their army, inputs ideas, but the general has overall command of the battle; and if they have two different ideas, the general has the final say.

#3: If you *must* team with someone, the best teammate is the one that is a better gamer than you, regardless of what army they play.

In terms of which codex pairs best with Dark Eldar for a tournament, it depends on points and how the codexes interact. If it was 1,000 point apiece, imagine the Dark Eldar "team" fielding 6 ravagers with flickerfields, 6 units of trueborn in venoms, 4 wych squads, Baron Sathonyx, and a couple of haemonculi - or another Baron Sathonyx if you could stack the +1 to go first. Or fielding Corbulo to reroll your +1 to go first. I'm hazy on all the codexes influence on rerolls and stuff, so don't flay me if that was wrong.

I had a team tournament a few weeks ago; I wasn't intending to go because I'm not a fan of team events - but my friend's partner fell through and he wasn't going to go anymore, so I conditionally offered to step in and partner up - with the condition that he be my adjutant - I'd value his input and listen to him, but if we disagree about something, my decision overrides. He brought his Orks, I brought my Dark Eldar, and since I play both codexes, this is my favorite pairing.

I brought Baron Sathonyx, two wych squads, 3 units of trueborn in venoms, and 3 ravagers.
He brought a KFF Big Mek, two units of gretchin, 3 units of Lootas (15/8/5 or something) and nine killa-kans with rokkits.

Killa-kans are tall enough to provide a cover save to Dark Eldar vehicles, while the kans themselves are getting cover saves from the KFF Big Mek, my wyches were protecting his Lootas from assault, and his Lootas and my firing support were scything the battlefield clear of everything. With all the Lootas on the field, I didn't have to focus my lances on AV11; he did that while I went after AV12 and 13. When one of our opponents dropped 9 wyches off in front of one of our two scoring gretchin units and a unit of my wyches and I realized that he had FNP and I didn't....well, Loota fire STR7 double toughness, and 4+ cover isn't so much. After a volley from his 15 Lootas, there were two wyches left, which I gladly went and snatched a pain token from.

Killa-kans have a STR10 close combat punch much better than tarpitting units like wyches do.

Game 1: We gave up 400 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Sisters of Battle)
Game 2: We gave up 0 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Blood Angels)
Game 3: We played against Team Twilight (Blood Angels + Space Wolves). The SW player had triple long fangs, grey hunters in rhinos, while the BA player had a drop-pod dreadnought and several units of jetpack assault infantry. All those assault infantry went after my wyches (and killed them) in exchange for getting counter-assaulted by three units of killa-kans (which in turn wiped out the BA player), after I spent two turns firing all my darklight weapons at his dreadnought and drop pod. Boom, then it was 2v1. And that's why you can't have two generals. The SW player told the BA player not to suicide into us, strongly encouraged him not to, but without the ability to countermand his partner, their strategies differed too wildly.

That's my advice. Its more about your partner than the list they bring.

My questions on deployment weren't worth considering? Or you haven't got to them yet?

Murdog, I answered you in a previous post to your last one.

This thread isn't a "How to beat DE" thread, but a "How to beat face with DE" thread. To your specifics:

1. I prefer to play against close combat armies because I play a close combat army, and I like being in close combat. You don't have to worry about LOS or range in close combat, you just beat on each other until someone is dead.

2. I don't have a least favorite deployment type. My speed makes DoW irrelevant to me and disfavorable to shooting opponents, and Spearhead and Pitched Battle are pretty much the same to me. I guess I like spearhead the least because it gives the my enemy the possibility of deploying far enough away that it will take me two turns to get there.

3. My job is to help people become better DE generals. My advice and tactics can be used equally by DE generals to improve, or non-DE generals to...improve. Read my advice and YOU figure out the best counter-deployment, the best target prioritization, and your best shot at taking down a DE player. I have no sympathy or urge to help the 54% of 40k players who all play the same damn thing with different colors, and every inclination to help the 4% of people playing my codex who want to beat the liver and onions out of that 54%.

If you want help on how to deploy your IG to beat on DE....that's fine, and I'd even give you advice in a different thread - one about how to counter a DE alpha-strike or something. But I don't want this thread going off-topic - the topic of which is using Dark Eldar to curb-stomp grown men, eat their livers, and send them home crying with dirty stitches in their side and no ability to process the alcohol they would use to drown their sorrows.

My apologies if I'm annoying you - I read your answer and wanted clarification and elaboration. It seems you are misunderstanding my approach, sorry for the confusion. I just feel that by asking about the deployment of the opponent, I can get more information about the deployment of your DE. I was going about it indirectly, you could say. If you talk about what challenges you, then you're also talking about your strategies for success.

As for who it is you're trying to help - that seems very clear. I do play IG, but not what everyone else plays, and I am a new DE commander, which is why I'm even reading this thread. I only related my army to you because you said you needed more specifics, and I put it at the end of the post, under my more general inquiry - like a case study. I'm not really trying to find out how to beat your DE - but wouldn't talking about that strenthen your advice anyways?

I tried to ask some (what I hoped were) intelligent questions related to what you wrote, in as a polite and respectful manner as I could muster. Thanks for answering them, much appreciated. I look forward to the rest of the article.

Once again DoP provides amazing tactics and insight into the pointy eared bondage xenos!

I eagerly await more tactics so I can attempt to counter them... As Daemons... Good thing I love a challange!

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Once again DoP provides amazing tactics and insight into the pointy eared bondage xenos!

I eagerly await more tactics so I can attempt to counter them... As Daemons... Good thing I love a challange!

Actually, Daemons are a hard matchup. Everything has eternal warrior and has an invulnerable save so lances aren't so hot, and you're as fast as me on foot as I can be in my vehicles if I'm staying combat oriented, and agonizers don't do me any good in close combat....not to mention that you generally have better WS, higher strength, and equal initiative.

Daemons are a rough match, no lie.

well my easiest victory was against deamons, because of the huge amount of poison my trueborn squad with splintercannons could pump out into their squads.

Hi Dash,

Lately I've been wondering if I should drop my DE army to get a new GK army because I've been having issues with the new DE codex and what I'd want to field would make me need to buy lots of new models...

Since I've been doing lots of reading I decided to keep my DE army mainly because of your explicit posts about DE that made me feel like thats the kind of army I want to play... for that I thank you.

Now on to my questions :

1- In the HQ choice would a Duke Sliscus be a good choice in a Wych cult army giving you the 2 dice rolls to choose Drugs or I should really go with haemys all the way, or like you suggest Baron Sastonyx and heamys...

Main reason I ask for this question is that do you think it'd be viable to get a troop of Hellions compared to a troop in a raider... figuring a troop with the Baron could maybe give him more reliability if I dont use beastmaster and co.


2- In a Wych cult army is it wise to cut down on troops to get 3 Trueborn blaster squads on venom?

3- When I read your DE advice on the beastmaster troop I was wondering if in your games you've had more output having that huge troop or simply putting more wyches?

4- Game wise agains't CSM or SW or any generic SM army what do you consider biggest threats because I often play agains't those but they tend to field everything in rhinos and staking them near each other making it hard for me to actually pop the troops out of the vehicules without getting stuck in their rapied fire range after my first assault (figuring I tend to rape the squad I charge before they can actually counterattack)...

Thanks

Again Dash, looks like solid advice.

The good news it that alot of what you preach here is applicable to other armies. Target priority can be different depending on what an army needs to kill first, but of course this is DE advice, so adding in the obligatory nod towards rape and plunder.

Tmonster wrote:well my easiest victory was against deamons, because of the huge amount of poison my trueborn squad with splintercannons could pump out into their squads.

Indeed, it depends on the kind of DE army you are playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maximillian wrote:
1- In the HQ choice would a Duke Sliscus be a good choice in a Wych cult army giving you the 2 dice rolls to choose Drugs or I should really go with haemys all the way, or like you suggest Baron Sastonyx and heamys...

Main reason I ask for this question is that do you think it'd be viable to get a troop of Hellions compared to a troop in a raider... figuring a troop with the Baron could maybe give him more reliability if I dont use beastmaster and co.


2- In a Wych cult army is it wise to cut down on troops to get 3 Trueborn blaster squads on venom?

3- When I read your DE advice on the beastmaster troop I was wondering if in your games you've had more output having that huge troop or simply putting more wyches?

4- Game wise agains't CSM or SW or any generic SM army what do you consider biggest threats because I often play agains't those but they tend to field everything in rhinos and staking them near each other making it hard for me to actually pop the troops out of the vehicules without getting stuck in their rapied fire range after my first assault (figuring I tend to rape the squad I charge before they can actually counterattack)...

Thanks

In answer to your questions...

1. The Wych cult link in the OP would be useful reading for you. There's even a lively debate about Duke Sliscus in there - I personally don't think he's worth taking in a wych cult...or probably any DE army for that matter.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by cutting down on troops? Models or troop choices? I think that taking less than 4 troop choices is a mistake in a wych cult - they're both your main army thrust and objective grabbers if you need them. If you're playing at a lower point value (like 1500 or something), then cut your wyches down to 5....contemplate sticking them in venoms instead of in raiders, because you won't have the points (or HQ slots) for both the Baron and 4+ haemonculi.

3. I'm not sure I understand your question about beastmasters. Beasts are a valuable unit. Depending on the wych cult that you're running, I think they lose some value - but in others they retain it. Beasts coming out of a WWP with fleet and a 12" assault is terrifying. If you're running a mechanized wych cult, points are harder to come by for them.

4. The biggest threats in a SM / CSM list depends on the codex it comes from. From Space Wolves, long fangs are the most threatening. Other codexes don't have that ability. As I said in my target prioritization section, the biggest threats are those with high strength, high volume attacks. I'd consider a predator with an auto-cannon and two twin-linked lascannons to be more of a threat than a las/plas razorback every day of the week.

Dashofpepper wrote:
In answer to your questions...

1. The Wych cult link in the OP would be useful reading for you. There's even a lively debate about Duke Sliscus in there - I personally don't think he's worth taking in a wych cult...or probably any DE army for that matter.

Yeah I just finished reading it and realized that the difference in getting 1 extra RANDOM choice compare to an extra +1 on getting possible first turn is quite good... (removed a part here... found the answer in my readings)

Dashofpepper wrote:
2. I'm not sure what you mean by cutting down on troops? Models or troop choices? I think that taking less than 4 troop choices is a mistake in a wych cult - they're both your main army thrust and objective grabbers if you need them. If you're playing at a lower point value (like 1500 or something), then cut your wyches down to 5....contemplate sticking them in venoms instead of in raiders, because you won't have the points (or HQ slots) for both the Baron and 4+ haemonculi.

Well I was looking at it in a view were I could use the venom to give cover to a troop with the venom that is smaller then a raider (sometimes they dont fit the the place where you need to cover) and at the point where I still keep the number of troops high enough depending on the points for the game...

Dashofpepper wrote:
3. I'm not sure I understand your question about beastmasters. Beasts are a valuable unit. Depending on the wych cult that you're running, I think they lose some value - but in others they retain it. Beasts coming out of a WWP with fleet and a 12" assault is terrifying. If you're running a mechanized wych cult, points are harder to come by for them.

I was looking at if you take a fast attack choice with 5 beastmaster, 15 Khymerae and 4 Razorwing Floks that doesn't come out of a WWP (300pts) compared to a troop of 9 wyches with 1 hekatrix, agoniser all HWG and Raider with FF (208pts)

Now in this situation I'm just wondering which of the 2 options are more reliable seeing has I'll have to move potentially alot before I can reach my target with the FA choice... do I risk losing 300pts for nothing

Dashofpepper wrote:
4. The biggest threats in a SM / CSM list depends on the codex it comes from. From Space Wolves, long fangs are the most threatening. Other codexes don't have that ability. As I said in my target prioritization section, the biggest threats are those with high strength, high volume attacks. I'd consider a predator with an auto-cannon and two twin-linked lascannons to be more of a threat than a las/plas razorback every day of the week.

On that note how to fare agains't a pack of rhinos (2-3) with troops inside? If i focus on 1 or 2 tanks I might get stuck in firing range after I potentially wipe the troops that were available to kill...


On another note I was wondering if going to 8 wyches and getting 1 model with hydra gauntlet (potentially more attacks) compared to 9 wyches is the extra number of attacks better then an extra wound? (it's probably already answered but I'm having a hard time finding all the answers )

Maximillian:

Two things:

For your specific list advice, which is what you're juggling, create a thread in the Army list section with a breakdown of what you're running, and what other units you have to substitute. Call your thread "Dashofpepper styled Dark Eldar" and you'll get a butt-ton more views and responses. I promise. Explain what your questions are about unit substitution and what to choose and let the community give feedback, give it a couple days, then send me a link to it so that I can go read what has been said and agree/disagree/etc.

And Part V is done. I still owe an important section on disruptive psychology and its application in-game, and need to see about fleshing out some of what I've written with pictures for the folks who are having trouble visualizing what I'm talking about.

I don't like you giving away all my Dark Eldar rules manipulations...Hopefully only our Dark Kin are reading this thread and not our enemies!

Great write-ups, part V needs pictures though, I understand all of that because I use those same tactics in games all the time, but if a newb were trying to understand this I think you just exploded their heads without pictures.

wileythenord wrote:I don't like you giving away all my Dark Eldar rules manipulations...Hopefully only our Dark Kin are reading this thread and not our enemies!

Great write-ups, part V needs pictures though, I understand all of that because I use those same tactics in games all the time, but if a newb were trying to understand this I think you just exploded their heads without pictures.

Same, pictures would indeed be helpful.

Otherwise, great info so far Dash! Very helpful. Keep up the good work.

Love it Dash! I don't play DE but a lot of the advice and tips you are giving help Eldar as well since we are also fast. Not everything since we play substantially different but certain things. Also your part V section is great for a lot of armies out there!

Great stuff! Keep it up!