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Jidmah wrote:Uhm, care to explain why? And give a (non-shunt) example for the difference?

kirsanth wrote:So what is NOT a normal move? Why write it like that? What is prevented that I am missing?

So you are basically saying that the word "normal" is extra text there simply to confuse readers?

Ok, I will go look for something to answer my own questions as soon as I have time to read some more.

Nah, I said 'normal' is most likely used to differentiate from other movements like falling back, assaulting, running and the like, if read in context with "This is done exactly as in their movement phase".

I am lacking some references regarding whether this is possible, (specifically Apoc variations ATM--I have them, but not with me) but if there is a way to scout a Tervigon, can it spawn termagants, then?

(I can see no reason not to, but it seems to be a bit removed from a normal move)

Note to self: get nid codex...

As they are tyranids, most likely no

Exact rule, maybe?

Jidmah wrote:As they are tyranids, most likely no

This wins. LOL

I think normal move vs assault move works the best, but also makes the least sense.

That may be why it makes my brain itch.

/shrug

(Editing to add: They can spawn gants before moving in the movement phase)

If it specifically calls for the movement phase, you may not use it outside of it, as scouting definitely is not a movement phase. Smoke launchers, for example, say "after completing its move".

Jidmah wrote:Uhm, care to explain why? And give a (non-shunt) example for the difference?

On page 76 from what Im reading: Any Scouts may make A NORMAL MOVE. This is done exactly as in their MOVEMENT PHASE, except during this move, scouts MUST REMAIN MORE THAN 12" AWAY.

i REPEAT:This is done exactly AS IN YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE.

Reading turbo boosting: When using their turbo boosters bikes may MOVE up to 24" in the MOVEMENT PHASE

Bikers and jets can turbo boost, vehicles can move flat out up to 24" depending on the vehicle, and yes I believe the teleport can be used as they move like they would in the movement phase, they just get it once per game so I say bring it on! Mat Ward wrote part of the GK book, and so Im guessing this was his intention.

Or have I been watching the episode of Robot Chicken with the Mad Scientist who turns everything upside down starting with Pluto too many times?

http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/scientist-mad-with-power.html

This video kinda reminds me of Ward

I see, thanks.

Well, the catch is that shunt states that after the shunt you can not assault that turn.


This implies and means that there is to be other phase after the shunt 'move', the shooting/running phase and the assault phase.

Which means there are other stages to it--- A normal turn.

TurboBoost has no mention to a turn it just says cover save for next opponents shooting phase.

The shunt should be used because the game hasn't begun and the assault next turn can occur which is not using the rule to the wording which is CHEATing.


And it mentions once per game and the game doesnt start till after scout moves.


Idk if you think this is a weak argument, this is RAW. Which takes precedence over RAI until a FAQ comes to fix it.




The other main difference is there is no FAQ for shunt unlike Turbo-boost and Smoke launchers.
The wording is not the same not even similar except they happen during scout move.

good call shank. I did not know they couldnt assault after shunting, so in a few months well see if its rule bending scenario. (I wouldnt be surprised about this loophole if not.)

shank911 wrote:Well, the catch is that shunt states that after the shunt you can not assault that turn.


This implies and means that there is to be other phase after the shunt 'move', the shooting/running phase and the assault phase.

Which means there are other stages to it--- A normal turn.

TurboBoost has no mention to a turn it just says cover save for next opponents shooting phase.

The shunt should be used because the game hasn't begun and the assault next turn can occur which is not using the rule to the wording which is CHEATing.


And it mentions once per game and the game doesnt start till after scout moves.


Idk if you think this is a weak argument, this is RAW. Which takes precedence over RAI until a FAQ comes to fix it.




The other main difference is there is no FAQ for shunt unlike Turbo-boost and Smoke launchers.
The wording is not the same not even similar except they happen during scout move.

No offense, but that argument is absolute NONSENSE! That is just twisting wording when the most simple explanation is the most obvious and expected. Why is this rule so hard for people to accept?! It isn't broken. Adapt or die. Simple as that!

Ok.. so. I skipped page 3.. figured I could catch up towards the end.

You are right, in the movement phase you can turbo boost.. so, technically you can't do that during the scout move.. but oh wait.. you can. Why? Because in the FAQ it specifcally says, can a unit use turboboost during hte scout move.. the answer yes. So .. that answers the reason why your allowed to turbo boost during scout.

NOW, .. shunting.. instead of a normal move.. scout move says may make a normal move. Considering the shunt is only once per game, and is not a normal movement for the unit, isn't that evidence of the fact that it can't be used FOR THE SCOUT MOVE. however, if I'm not mistaken the word says once per game, you coudl do that between the scout move and before the seize initiative moment i guess. As technically that is after scout move and during the game. But I see that as a bit much on rule bending. I don't really care what they do with the dreadknight, I'm just dissapointed that for a codex that has been so long needed for the GK's that there is already a faq needed before the actual release of codex..

God damn, people are so *silly* [Mod edit]... what is so hard to understand that in the scout move you moves as you normally would in your movement phase? The FAQ states 3 examples as to why it would work. Get your thumbs out of your asses and accept it.

But seeing as it isn't the normal movement, that they are allowed it only once a game.. otherwise if you said they always move 30" i'd say sure.. but they don't they move once like that.. not normally.. and no where does it say for turboboosting that "instead of moving normally you may" it says, you may move up to 24" blah blah during the movement phase.

You may move 30" in the movement phase once per game... same shat different pile.

Instead of moving normally... Try not to forget that line.. It's what is causing the whole debate after all.

until it is FAQ'd it seems totally playable.

because people are confused about the move thing lets move it to something more conceivable. Lets say there is a hypothetical rule that says before the game starts each player can nominate a unit to fire before the 1st turn. You have to fire exactly as you do in the shooting phase. No one would argue that someone could fire a hunter killer missile even though it has an ammo of 1.

The same thing is happening here only the "shunt" move happens to have an "ammo" of 1. Furthermore bikes move nearly as far during their scout move, so why can't another unit?

The FAQs that already out are for far different issues and the wording on this issues is much clearer then this.

You aren't making a normal move with shunt

you are telerport shunting,

this is not equal or even similar to normal move.



When you "shunt move" you give up your "normal move"
Hench the line
'Once per game, they unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.'

This indicates your are forgoing you normal move to shunt.


This doesnt mean shunt=normal move.

Its like using a rapid fire weapon, you can forgo you movement to get 24" fire, same as shunting you forgo moving to shunt.

TBing says they can because its a part of it, its not instead of moving, it is their movement.
Smokelaunchers are after a move, scout move is a move.

Shunt has no comparison to these except scout is brought up between the three.


Shunt can not be used as a normal move because you are forgoing that normal move in order to do shunt.

Where does it define what is "normal" in the rulebook, by chance? I don't recall a specific page defining that. In fact, I see examples pointing to the contrary, because Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move, I suppose.

Folks, Shunting in the Scout move is legal. Its a type of Movement that can be done in the Movement phase, thus it can be done as a Scout move. Period. End of story.

I'm actually with you on that one luke, I'm not really one way or the other on it, I'm just saying it can't because of the wording of the teleporters. Same thing to be said about the NORMAL unit that carries them, not just the dreadknight. My only thing witht hem is that bikes turboboosting have limitations that these guys don't. A. you have to not go into terrain. Not to mention the originoanl posting of this thread asked would they take a DT test.. Entering and leaving terrain forces them to test, yet this shunt wouldn't ..??

I'm wondering about why all the GK players and such are wanting all these extra edges .. if they become actual play then so be it.. but it seems like a lot of twisting to get an edge on a already quite impressive codex.

Also.. whatever happened to 4+ing it?

Can you move in the Scout phase? YES.

Thus, you can elect to skip said move to Shunt.

Easy as that.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:

The same thing is happening here only the "shunt" move happens to have an "ammo" of 1. Furthermore bikes move nearly as far during their scout move, so why can't another unit?

The TurboBoost rule doesn't state you are instead of you move, it says it is a bikes normal move if it chooses to. up to 24" is how far a bike can move all the time every-time,

if it moves un 12" it can do normal stuff 18"+ it gets the cover save.


Shunt isnt comparable to TB at all, there different TB is clearly defined and FAQed to clear it up shunt is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason this is important is because, if you can shunt in scout phase, which isnt a turn, then the no assault thing doesnt occur.

So you shunt get 12" away then move shoot assault next turn.

Im will be amazed if the FAQ allows this to go through.
Because of the implications of this.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Where does it define what is "normal" in the rulebook, by chance? I don't recall a specific page defining that. In fact, I see examples pointing to the contrary, because Turbo-Boosting is not a "normal" move, I suppose.

Folks, Shunting in the Scout move is legal. Its a type of Movement that can be done in the Movement phase, thus it can be done as a Scout move. Period. End of story.

I'm sorry but that is a lame rebuttle sir. First off, nothing in the rulebooks is defined.. why.. because it isn't a dictioniary.. but 2 of the rules in question are bringing up the term normal meaning it has some significance here. I.e. PT= Instead of moving normally. Scout= May make a normal move... Why is that not.. period.. end of story? Your relation to turboboosting is a void argument as it says may be done in movement phase but oh wait not movement phase because RB faq says they can. No where in rulebook is shunt mentioned as any form of movement... so does that mean it doesn't exist.. zomgz... Really, it's apparently not cut and dry as if it was there woudln't be an argument about it.

Also, I take it if you said the sky is falling we should take you at your word because its Period.. End of story Say so?.... ... .. ..?

Right, the BRB is a dictionary. So where is "normal" move defined? How about in a Codex? Anywhere? Nope.

Why the term was used, I don't know.

That does change my last argument, which is the simplest approach without rules lawyering, etc.

Can you move in the Scout phase? Yes.

Thus, you can elect to skip said move to Shunt.

A + B = D?

Also, Turbo-Boosting is a great example. It is not a "normal" move, not that such a term even matters, and is able to be used. It sets a clear precedent about what can and can't be done in the Scout move. Same for the Smoke Launchers. Maybe if it was just one of those two, I can see an argument, but two makes a trend.

The only argument I am seeing is the need for a definition of "normal move", which doesn't exist. Shall we let common sense prevail here, then, since that argument falls pretty flat?

It does exist in both items/rules being used. I.e. perhaps we should say this here in case we come up with something weirder down the road? Again turboboosting has been covered as to why it is allowed yet the other wouldn't be...

Ive posted my view, I dont want to buy a codex just to argue with GK rules abusers. If something prevents you from assault when performing a special move it should be clearly written. From the turbo boost example I believe games where the scouts can teleport can use it to assault that turn, as I used to do this with my white scars army when the faq was released.

Keep in mind some of the missions where you cannot set up normally such as Dawn of War would already nullify the scout teleport as they would move on to the board turn 1.

IMO 1-3 teleporters arent that scary Dreads or not in tournaments. Why? That would be the first thing I target and I dont think a shunting unit can be that scary if you use your mech to castle it from charging your squad as it can only assault what it shoots at. So you lose a tank. Then they lose their strongest attackers. So come at me with your 1-3 assaulters. Then eat my bullets, meltas, force weapon, fists, hammers and meet my heavy hitters.

How to counter with proper positioning:

Chaos: 9 obliterators behind rhino plague marines with plasmas and meltas

Eldar: Harlequins, massive shots, etc.

IG: everything

MArines: heavy shooters and asssaulters

etc., etc., etc. for every thing that seems overpowered, they can be overpowered with luck and positioning. Also, buying a new army and assembling it and painting it I wouldnt expect them to win any painting requirement tournaments anytime soon.

My current army laughs at GK. They are DOA so I just wont DS. DK are T7 and eat marines. So Ill charge everyone into them and that should be enough fists, meltas, and bps to kill them one by one.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Also, Turbo-Boosting is a great example. It is not a "normal" move, not that such a term even matters, and is able to be used. It sets a clear precedent about what can and can't be done in the Scout move. Same for the Smoke Launchers. Maybe if it was just one of those two, I can see an argument, but two makes a trend.

The only argument I am seeing is the need for a definition of "normal move", which doesn't exist. Shall we let common sense prevail here, then, since that argument falls pretty flat?

Turbo-boosting is a normal move for bikes....

Turbo-boosters dont turn on unless the bike wants to go over 12", the oppent doesnt have to say hes turbo-boosting, you should know if he goes over 12" he is but he doesnt gain the save unless he moves over 18".

So Turbo-boosting is normal, no where does it state it replaces your move or changes it, it is the move just a name for the portion of it after 12"+ Like flat out, cruising speed etc.



And FYI a normal move isnt defined its common sense, add A+B=c

A= normal B= move c= normal move.

normal is defined as Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

Move is A change of place or position.



So A+B= a change of place or position that conforms to a standard or is typical or expected.


Shunt doesnt follow this, it isnt normal or expected it is a one time use.

So if you go by the definition, the unsaid definition then shunt cant be used.

Oh, I like this fellow.