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jake wrote:As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

Don't worry, I fully read your post before I concluded that it makes jack all sense. Yes they redid all the 2nd edition plastics, but how long did it take for everything to be brought up to speed? Close to 10 years? For a lot of that stuff, it was introducing entire new options that weren't physically possible before. Plastic Marines in 2nd edition were single pose figures. Plastic Chaos Marines at the time were incredibly simplistic. If GW were to do this, it would instantly invalidate everything. I wouldn't buy anything because I know it would be changed before too long. Other people would think the same thing, and now GW has heaps and heaps of product that won't sell because now people know what's coming will be better. It also doesn't make sense because they just released a new Marine army (Grey Knights) a month ago and to just throw all that away is idiotic.

Some sort of significant change to the Marine line? If GW wanted significant change to boost Marine sales, they wouldn't release variant armies like Space Wolves and Blood Angels. They know that riffing on the existing designs works, and they have no reason to change that.

jake wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see GW making truescale anything any time soon. That would mean redesigning literally every Space Marine, Chaos Marine, Grey Knight, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Black Templar non-vehicle model. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

Well yea, it makes tons of sense until you look at it and realize that it doesn't make any sense at all.

I always thought they needed to release a true scale IG force----more than a true scale SM force

candy.man wrote:I’m hoping that this rumour proves true as it will be good to see more CSM models released.

There will be plenty of new CSM when they get around to the next book. Probably new Cult Troops, Obliterators, Havoks and Raptors.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I always thought they needed to release a true scale IG force----more than a true scale SM force

Yes!

But then they went ahead and unleashed the Plastic Catachans on us!

Alpharius wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I always thought they needed to release a true scale IG force----more than a true scale SM force

Yes!

But then they went ahead and unleashed the Plastic Catachans on us!

"Everyone line up for their testosterone shots. And remember, it's curl and triceps day. Then tomorrow it's curl and triceps day. Day after, curl and triceps day. Day after...well you get the idea. Now go ahead and lower your britches there son..."



I remember when I bought my first Death Korp guardsman----I thought "Holy hell, he's small". When in truth, Cadian/Catachan guys are just steroid gene bulk dudes...

Brother SRM wrote:

jake wrote:As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

Don't worry, I fully read your post before I concluded that it makes jack all sense. Yes they redid all the 2nd edition plastics, but how long did it take for everything to be brought up to speed? Close to 10 years? For a lot of that stuff, it was introducing entire new options that weren't physically possible before. Plastic Marines in 2nd edition were single pose figures. Plastic Chaos Marines at the time were incredibly simplistic. If GW were to do this, it would instantly invalidate everything.

This has happened before. The plastic overhaul from 2nd edition to 3rd edition also instantly invalidated everything. That was the point. It allowed GW to re-sell entire armies to people who had already bought them. It gave them years and years of viable, must have new releases for several different armies. Why do you think they wouldn't do that again? Why do you think they wouldn't take the opportunity to relaunch the space marine line and force every Space Marine player to re-buy their army? Yes, it would mean that recent kits would be out of scale. So? Each out of scale kits offers a chance to resell a larger version of the kit to players two years later. Remember, GW wants your money. They'll happily sell you a kit now, and the same kit (but slightly different/improved) 2 years later. it's happened many times before. It will happen again.

While it's impossible to say whether or not large scale marines will happen, it seems inevitable that GW will change the basic marine sprue in a way that will encourage players to re-buy the models they already have (and upscaling them would probably be the easiest way to do this). It's a proven profitable business strategy, and GW has been using it since the push to plastic in early 3rd edition. Think of it from a stock holders perspective. It's time to launch the 6th edition of the game. Unfortunately you have no new basic marine models to sell, just the same sets you've been offering for the last X years. But what if you could re-release those sets, only larger, and force everyone to buy them again? Yes, you'd have to re-release everything, but so what? That's 2-5 years of must have releases that you know will sell!

The change over from 2nd edition to 3rd edition plastic Space Marine models didn't change that much at all really!

They all look just fine and very similar, next to each other.

And, as previously noted, as long as Jes is working at GW, I feel VERY confident in saying that they will NOT be releasing 'upsized' Marines.

jake wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see GW making truescale anything any time soon. That would mean redesigning literally every Space Marine, Chaos Marine, Grey Knight, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Black Templar non-vehicle model. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

No it does not make sense. Marine players and collectors today have far more invested in the current plastic models than the older fans did with their first edition models. Do you really think someone with thousands of dollars worth of marines (including metals and resin Forgeworld stuff and independent castings) is going to be happy that their entire collection has been made obsolete and that new people to the game wont even buy them because they're "the wrong size"? Pissed would be putting it mildly.

It makes far more sense to reduce the size of humans in the game. Firstly there are less armies of them, secondly there are less sets to redo. As marines are the number one seller, then the size of the marines should be considered the scale to base everything else on. The current larger humans can still be used as taller humans.

I agree that one of the things they need to do is produce some marine models that are standing a little straighter and that includes the drednaught.


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AgeOfEgos wrote:


I remember when I bought my first Death Korp guardsman----I thought "Holy hell, he's small". When in truth, Cadian/Catachan guys are just steroid gene bulk dudes...

QFT!

Alpharius wrote:The change over from 2nd edition to 3rd edition plastic Space Marine models didn't change that much at all really!

They all look just fine and very similar, next to each other.

And, as previously noted, as long as Jes is working at GW, I feel VERY confident in saying that they will NOT be releasing 'upsized' Marines.

I'm not talking about the switch from the 2nd edition plastics, (either the mono-pose ones from the 2nd edition box set or the limited pose ones that were sold in sets of 5), but the switch from the 2nd edition all metal range to the current full plastic range. This switch, which provided GW with years of new space marine releases, was ridiculously profitable. Now that the switch is largely over, now that there aren't any new space marine models to re-release in plastic, do you really imagine that GW will stop producing new space marine models? Or will they look for a way to sell us new versions of the models we've already bought multiple times in the past?

Remember, this isn't a new strategy. GW has been doing this for years and it's been very profitable for them.

Alpharius wrote:The change over from 2nd edition to 3rd edition plastic Space Marine models didn't change that much at all really!

They all look just fine and very similar, next to each other.

and by "similar" he means "exactly the same".

cadbren wrote:

jake wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see GW making truescale anything any time soon. That would mean redesigning literally every Space Marine, Chaos Marine, Grey Knight, Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Black Templar non-vehicle model. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

As I pointed out a few posts above you it actually makes a huge amount of sense. They've done something very similar before and it was hugely successful. I'd say that larger scale marines, or some other significant change to the marine model line, are inevitable.

No it does not make sense. Marine players and collectors today have far more invested in the current plastic models than the older fans did with their first edition models. Do you really think someone with thousands of dollars worth of marines (including metals and resin Forgeworld stuff and independent castings) is going to be happy that their entire collection has been made obsolete and that new people to the game wont even buy them because they're "the wrong size"? Pissed would be putting it mildly.

Maybe you weren't around during the end of 2nd edition when people were complaining that the new plastic models invalidated their old metal models? Yes, I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. Many, many players said that they'd never buy the new plastics or didn't need them because they had already invested in large metal armies. That didn't stop the move from metal to plastic from being hugely successful. It also didn't stop the general player consensus from switching from "plastic is inferior to metal" to "metal is inferior to plastic) in just a few years time. At the time it was a huge gamble for GW, but it really paid off, and they've continued to use this model, constantly re-introducing new versions of older models, to great effect.

Yes, some people will be upset by a slight marine scale change. Some people will quite the game. Many people will claim that they won't buy new models. As we've seen in the past, if GW delivers quality models people will put aside their objections and happily buy them.

Anyway, I don't care to argue this anymore. I feel like I've made my case. At this point all we can do is wait and see what happens. As I said before, I do think some kind of major change to the basic marine set is inevitable in the next few years. Whether it's a change in scale, a change in general design or something else remains to be seen.

So, you're talking about RT era metal vs. plastics?

Yes, the difference was noticeable.

But this is a different GW now, and while they'd love to sell us the same stuff all over again (LP to Cassette to CD to MP3?), that isn't going to happen here.

Worglock wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The change over from 2nd edition to 3rd edition plastic Space Marine models didn't change that much at all really!

They all look just fine and very similar, next to each other.

and by "similar" he means "exactly the same".

I think you guys are confused. the 2nd edition plastic marines look absolutely nothing like the 3rd edition ones. Even painted, they look very different next to each other and are easy to differentiate. there's actually a small scale difference between the two, with the 3rd edition models being slightly larger and bulkier.

Here's a picture of the Tactical squad released at the beginning of 3rd edition. This is the base of all the current marine plastics.:

Here's a picture of the plastic marines that came with the 2nd edition box set:

There was also another plasic set available (which I can't find a photo of), consisting of poorly molded legs, a single piece torso and head, arms and shoulder pads. The legs/torso had a flant joint instead of the current ball. these were released around the same time as the bikes and were meant to be compatible with that kit. They were pretty crappy though, and the 3rd edition plastic kits were visibly superior, larger, more positionable and had much better detail.

I think you guys are confused. the 2nd edition plastic marines look absolutely nothing like the 3rd edition ones.

That's what I was thinking. The 2nd edition Marines were nothing like the nice multi-part Marines that came with the 3rd edition core box. Those 3rd edition models are pretty much what the current tactical box contains, though the sprues were re-cut between the two so that the backpacks are no longer a separate sprue, more optional bits added, etc.

Alpharius wrote:So, you're talking about RT era metal vs. plastics?

Yes, the difference was noticeable.

But this is a different GW now, and while they'd love to sell us the same stuff all over again (LP to Cassette to CD to MP3?), that isn't going to happen here.

No, I'm not talking about RT era stuff VS plastics. Am I the only person that's aware that GW released an enormous number of models during 2nd edition? These were largely replaced by plastic in 3rd edition onwards (with the Sisters of Battle, Eldar Warp Spiders and a few Space Wolf characters being among the only models from 2nd edition still currently in use). In edition to the two different plastic kits Marine kits that GW released in second edition they also released tons of metal marines. These were not Rogue Trader era miniatures, but models released alongside the 2nd edition codexes.




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BrassScorpion wrote:

I think you guys are confused. the 2nd edition plastic marines look absolutely nothing like the 3rd edition ones.

That's what I was thinking. The 2nd edition Marines were nothing like the nice multi-part Marines that came with the 3rd edition core box. Those 3rd edition models are pretty much what the current tactical box contains, though the sprues were re-cut between the two so that the backpacks are no longer a separate sprue, more optional bits added, etc.

Oh neat, I didn't realize they had been re-cut. I left the hobby early in 3rd and didn't come back till last year, so I haven't had a look at a tactical squad box since they were brand new in 3rd edition. I had just assumed the content was the same.

Anyway, I think there's some general mis assumptions about when certain models were released. Since I've been back I've been amazed by the number of people that think the plastic tactical squad that came out at the beginning of 3rd edition was the first plastic marine kit, or that it actually came out in second edition , or that 2nd or 3rd edition models are RT era models, or that that the current rhino is the first version of that model, or... well, etc, etc. Maybe this isn't surprising. Not everyone has a good memory for this stuff, and of course not everyone has been in the hobby that long.

Chaos in a starter set? good. True Scale? Kinda hard to believe. Would I buy such a thing? sure, but my wallet would die of shock.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I fear for the fate of the plastic Deff Kopta. When the current starter-kit goes, GW will actually be creating a hole in the Ork line.

That's not a good thing.

I hadn't even thought of that. I'd like to be able to say by doing so, they'd be leaving money on the table and it would be super foolish of them not to release as a standalone kit. Unfortunately GWS's track record has shown ample evidence they have no fear of either being foolish, nor any real interest in the money on the table, at least not enough to pursue it in a meaningful, long-term thinking sort of way.

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:Chaos in a starter set? good. True Scale? Kinda hard to believe. Would I buy such a thing? sure, but my wallet would die of shock.

Like asking and then answering my own questions? Sure do.

The difference between switching all 2nd ed metal models to new plastics and switching current plastics to newer plastics is pretty enormous. It's apples and oranges.

Also, on the Catachan model statement - the original infantry squad are horribly proportioned figures with lots of wacky sculpting going on. The gun teams and command squad kits are MUCH better proportioned, and scale to Space Marines a bit better.

jake wrote:
No, I'm not talking about RT era stuff VS plastics. Am I the only person that's aware that GW released an enormous number of models during 2nd edition? These were largely replaced by plastic in 3rd edition onwards (with the Sisters of Battle, Eldar Warp Spiders and a few Space Wolf characters being among the only models from 2nd edition still currently in use). In edition to the two different plastic kits Marine kits that GW released in second edition they also released tons of metal marines. These were not Rogue Trader era miniatures, but models released alongside the 2nd edition codexes.

There's still a bunch of IG characters, the assassins, the BA characters, DA characters, and Chaos figs still in use from that era. The ones still left are largely not the goofy ones (barring the Space Wolf characters) and still look very nice next to the newer models. There was a bigger change from RT to 2nd edition in both style and size but that too would pale next to the differences between truescale and 40k wierd swollen scale. Making them TS would fundamentally change how the game plays due to the size difference so I wouldn't support it for the main line. A specialist game in TS that focused on wh30k heresy stuff? That I'd buy.. alot...

Interesting how this thread that was based on something that barely even qualifies as having enough behind it to be called a rumor has mutated into an argument that has little to do with the original subject which probably should never have been posted in the first place with so little information to absolutely no information to support it. There, I said it and I'd say it again.

I think this is a good example of "come back in six months when there is maybe something approaching a rumor or information leak to discuss".

BrassScorpion wrote:Interesting how this thread that was based on something that barely even qualifies as having enough behind it to be called a rumor has mutated into an argument that has little to do with the original subject which probably should never have been posted in the first place with so little information to support it.

When Dakka hands you lemons, you make lemonade.

so apparently the new CSM are 10' tall and shoot lightning bolts out of their ars.

i really really doubt any of this.

warboss wrote:

jake wrote:
No, I'm not talking about RT era stuff VS plastics. Am I the only person that's aware that GW released an enormous number of models during 2nd edition? These were largely replaced by plastic in 3rd edition onwards (with the Sisters of Battle, Eldar Warp Spiders and a few Space Wolf characters being among the only models from 2nd edition still currently in use). In edition to the two different plastic kits Marine kits that GW released in second edition they also released tons of metal marines. These were not Rogue Trader era miniatures, but models released alongside the 2nd edition codexes.

There's still a bunch of IG characters, the assassins, the BA characters, DA characters, and Chaos figs still in use from that era. The ones still left are largely not the goofy ones (barring the Space Wolf characters) and still look very nice next to the newer models. There was a bigger change from RT to 2nd edition in both style and size but that too would pale next to the differences between truescale and 40k wierd swollen scale. Making them TS would fundamentally change how the game plays due to the size difference so I wouldn't support it for the main line. A specialist game in TS that focused on wh30k heresy stuff? That I'd buy.. alot...

Ah, I had forgotten about the assassins and the Guard, Blood Angels and Chaos figures. There's probably others floating around as well. The power armored Marneus Calgar comes to mind. The Eldar Phoenix Lords too, now that I think about it. And the Avatar and Eldrad models. Anyway...

I wonder if TS would be such a huge change to the way the game plays? certainly marine models would be larger and easier to hit, and in turn they'd have the advantage of slightly increased line of site and (if they increase the size of vehicles as well) larger mobile shields. But is that really a huge concern? Is a 15% larger marine really a game breaker? This is a genuine question, by the way. I'm not sure either way. It doesn't seem like it would be a huge deal, but there may be ramifications I'm not seeing.

Orinoco wrote:Not a good idea to burn your sources by giving such specific information about them.

Hahahaha, best post ever! And I really hope SoB are in the upcoming starter box.... I'd buy it just for that.

kronk wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:
It's not like they would ever put Terminators on 40mm bas... erm... I mean it is not like they would ever put IH HW teams on 60mm bas... erm...

Never mind

Really? That's your arguement?

20mm and 40mm bases have been the standard base sizes. Switching one unit (terminators) from one standard base size (20m) to another (40mm) is completely different from "Now all your guys in every army we've ever made need to be on 30mm bases, that have never been used before", which GW would never do.

I dunno why you're talking about "standard base size". Terminators used to be mounted on 25mm bases. Then one day, GW decided they should be on 40mm bases. 40mm bases didn't even exist until sometime during 3rd edition, while the 25mm rounds actually have been around since before RT was released.

jake wrote:

Worglock wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The change over from 2nd edition to 3rd edition plastic Space Marine models didn't change that much at all really!

They all look just fine and very similar, next to each other.

and by "similar" he means "exactly the same".

I think you guys are confused. the 2nd edition plastic marines look absolutely nothing like the 3rd edition ones. Even painted, they look very different next to each other and are easy to differentiate. there's actually a small scale difference between the two, with the 3rd edition models being slightly larger and bulkier.

There was also another plasic set available (which I can't find a photo of), consisting of poorly molded legs, a single piece torso and head, arms and shoulder pads. The legs/torso had a flant joint instead of the current ball. these were released around the same time as the bikes and were meant to be compatible with that kit. They were pretty crappy though, and the 3rd edition plastic kits were visibly superior, larger, more positionable and had much better detail.

I have some of those flat joined marines, they were plastic versions of the metals including one at least that was almost the same as one of the metals that came in the "Ultramarines" squad box. As the bike set took longer to be replaced with the "ball" joint there are still a few of them around. Unless they've changed the metal moulds, the bike squad box set with the sgt, plasma rifle and melta gun are flat based.

There's not that much difference between them though, the major difference is that most of the helmets had a thinner vent on top, even older termies can be worked in with the newer ones pretty much by putting them on a larger base and blending the two bases together.
True scale marines are at least a head and shoulder taller and much wider too, there's no way to blend these types together and as I put, why bother when the marines should be the starting point and everything should be based on them.
Vehicles are another issue, Rhinos and Land Raiders are too small for the current sized models. For the current marines, a Rhino would need to be the size of the current Land Raider for them to fit in it, the Land Raider would need to be Baneblade sized. If the marines become bigger, then the Rhino would need to become Baneblade sized at which point the scale has become too big and unwieldy.

Ouze wrote:

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:Chaos in a starter set? good. True Scale? Kinda hard to believe. Would I buy such a thing? sure, but my wallet would die of shock.

Like asking and then answering my own questions? Sure do.

Granted I did ask and answer my own questions, but I was expressing my opinion on this rumor (in a similar fashion that others have posted, I might add).

If you don't like the way I posted my opinion, here's this. I like the idea of CSM and SOB in the supposed starter box. I don't see "true Scale" happening any time soon.

If it does happen, I would still buy it, since I enjoy the modeling aspect of this hobby and my clumsy hands don't work well with the TINY scale of the current ranges of 40K.

If you were just bull s g me, you can disregard this post.

jake wrote: Is a 15% larger marine really a game breaker?

I'd rather say 30-35% larger, if they were to make them real True Scale (that is, 9-10ft tall)...

Marines are not 9-10ft tall!

AgeOfEgos wrote:I remember when I bought my first Death Korp guardsman----I thought "Holy hell, he's small".

My thoughts exactly. Took me a second to realise "No wait, these are in scale... it's the Catachans/Cadians that are too big!".

They need to redo the Guard rather than re-do Marines.