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It is indeed customer's fault , not directly no.

We complain about GW's actions, yet many of us still support the company ( enough supports to keep the company alive and health )

In a sense we are feeding the Company's ego or confidence to do w/e they please.

Flashman wrote:As to the content, I guess we have official confirmation of GW's current belief that total secrecy equals = £££ on release day rather than ££.

According to Wells, you sell most, when everyone is surprised that you are still selling and not dead yet
I call this anti-marketing to artificially lower sales and revenue.

Flashman wrote:In the letter Mark Wells uses Space Hulk as example of how total secrecy works, but...
a) it was the worst kept secret ever and
b) who's to say that something like nostalgia or the highly limited release didn't play a bigger part in the high sales

I suggested a Space Hulk rerelease for 5 years as the best possible introductory game.
I knew about the release 2.5 years in advance when Harry spilled the beans. I still bought two because the product was fine.
It sold well, because the market was underestimated at least tenfold even with abyssmal marketing and distribution.

As previously covered, this is due to the same questions being asked.

Mr Mystery wrote:As previously covered, this is due to the same questions being asked.

And you know this because you know "he" responds to the letters 1 by 1?

Or that you trust that he does?

I give up. I truly give up. There is no discussion to be had on these boards, just the same old mindless drivel vomited up, page after page after page.

Luna. Go read the entire thread, rather than just seizing upon a single comment...

Kroothawk wrote:
It sold well, because the market was underestimated at least tenfold even with abyssmal marketing and distribution.

Yup, the amount of potential returning gamers GW had to turn away that I saw at my own local due to SH being sold out. People had heard about it a few days/weeks after the release on more "mainstream" forums (i.e. not Wargaming), came into GW looking to reinvigorate a bit of nostalgia and maybe even get back into the game, only to find out it is not for sale.

The biggest kick in the teeth was several GW stores had copies of it lying around as overstock and they all at one point got sent back to Warhammer World where they were put on sale there.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Read it again Mikhaila, Where did anyone seriously suggest they would?
We get it that you are an ace entrepreneur and us mere mortals have no business sense, but that does not necessarily mean that the shambles currently in charge at GW are any better than the geeks on the internet.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Read it again Mikhaila, Where did anyone seriously suggest they would?
We get it that you are an ace entrepreneur and us mere mortals have no business sense, but that does not necessarily mean that the shambles currently in charge at GW are any better than the geeks on the internet.

Erm, I think yes...as your constant assertation that it's badly run is well, utterly uninformed, by your own admission?

Mr Mystery wrote:
Erm, I think yes...as your constant assertation that it's badly run is well, utterly uninformed, by your own admission?

GW ARE badly run though, I believe the cliche of piss ups and breweries comes to mind. They are consumed by their own hubris, and this will be their downfall.

Your genuine, comparative and factual evidence please?

I half expected to hear that you received a years supply of shampoo or a sprue of finecrap as a reply.

Great job on that letter. Well written, well worded, and got your points across to the discussion. Way to go.

It was a standard talking point PR reply.



As for the "Drivel" comment, it is interspaced with plenty of apologist talking points with no basis of facts, so it isn't all bad. Agood discussion and Calvin gave them plenty of chances to discuss the issues, but like Goebbles said-

1. Propagandist must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.

2. Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
a. It must issue all the propaganda directives.

b. It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale.

c. It must oversee other agencies' activities which have propaganda consequences

3. The propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.

4. Propaganda must affect the enemy's policy and action.
a. By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful intelligence

b. By openly disseminating propaganda whose content or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired conclusions

c. By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself

d. By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity

5. Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign

6. To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting communications medium.

7. Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.

8. The purpose, content and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an expose; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should be ignored or refuted.

9. Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda materials should be censored.

10. Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy's prestige or lends support to the propagandist's own objective.

11. Black rather than white propaganda may be employed when the latter is less credible or produces undesirable effects.

12. Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.

13. Propaganda must be carefully timed.
a. The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.

b. A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment

c. A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness

14. Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
a. They must evoke desired responses which the audience previously possesses

b. They must be capable of being easily learned

c. They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations

d. They must be boomerang-proof

15. Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted by future events.

16. Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.
a. Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat

b. Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than concerning the consequences of defeat) which is too high and which cannot be reduced by people themselves

17. Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
a. Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated

b. Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective

18. Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.

19. Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some form of action or diversion, or both.


Because, after all, we're talking about- "The Hobby".

But at no point was said letter a discussion. It was a series of statements.

Exactly what sort of reply would you expect to that?

Just had a conversation with an ex-employee from GW:

aparantly, they were instructed to sell 10 monoliths when they first came out, over the next year. Every store world-wide had to sell 10 each, that way, in the first year the moulds/machines/sculptor would have "paid for themselves". And when we got talking I realized he WAS right, it IS hard to do, because how many Necron players frequent a shop and buy from there? And how many then would have the money to drop on a single monolith, never mind two...

... so anyway, THERE is GWs problem: no long-term sights AT ALL. If an investment is measured in the span of a year, and not longer, its very easy to see their skewed math. They don't give two gaks about customer loyalty, they care about stupid johns who will drop their wallets at the tip of a hat for their product. Once the initial excitment blows over, release the next line to keep them enthused and forget about the last one... Also a small wonder then that few people field painted armies....

Erm, I think yes...as your constant assertation that it's badly run is well, utterly uninformed, by your own admission

erm, definitely not.

I at no point said anyone of us could run GW efficiently.
I merely made an off the cuff remark to the effect that the incumbent managment at GW are useless.
That is an opinion which you may or may not agree with but I am still entitled to express it.

I have no faith in the previous or current bunch of nanas in Westminster, but that DOES NOT presume to suggest that I would be able to fulfil the role myself.


Now where is the evidence that the company is well run?
The current decisions they have made and falling sales suggest otherwise.
The fact that they are hacking off customers suggests theat something is remiss, and no the "people always moan at GW" nonsense won't hold.

Mr Mystery wrote:But at no point was said letter a discussion. It was a series of statements.

Exactly what sort of reply would you expect to that?

whatever.

I'm not going to play internet tit for tat with you.


Way your acting here you'd think that YOU were Mark Wells or something. Calvin writes the letter and all the sudden you take over the thread.... LOL


Slow day at the office there, Mark?

Mr Mystery wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Read it again Mikhaila, Where did anyone seriously suggest they would?
We get it that you are an ace entrepreneur and us mere mortals have no business sense, but that does not necessarily mean that the shambles currently in charge at GW are any better than the geeks on the internet.

Erm, I think yes...as your constant assertation that it's badly run is well, utterly uninformed, by your own admission?

So in your own opinion how would you say they are run? good? ok? average? crap?

Heres the thing, if they actually had a clue what they were doing why are sales dropping from year to year? is it the price? is the its rules system putting people off? is it a combination of the two, should they not be doing market research to actually fine out what the problem is rather than covering up the fall in sales with price rises? Is it good buisness to at the same time as rising you prices, switch to a cheaper material, create a trading embargo? Its not something you do all at the same time if you have to do it at all, it really is a PR mess that now GW has to try and clear up, if they handeled it correctly most of this would have gone away by now. I can honestly say this is the longest period I can remember people bitching about GW.

Grot 6 wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:But at no point was said letter a discussion. It was a series of statements.

Exactly what sort of reply would you expect to that?

whatever.

I'm not going to play internet tit for tat with you.


Way your acting here you'd think that YOU were Mark Wells or something. Calvin writes the letter and all the sudden you take over the thread.... LOL


Slow day at the office there, Mark?

lol

Mr Mystery wrote:Your genuine, comparative and factual evidence please?

I am really not one for forum mudslinging as it were, but Mr Mystery every thread that shows up like this seems to turn into you taking a stance of well there GW so they have to know whats best....right guy's? No one here has said that they can do better at running the buissness then Mr. Wells, no one has said they have all the answers. We are all voiceing our displeasure with the current situation and what we think may be a better option(you call it whining i call it being disapointed in something that i love and want to see do well).
Yes GW is a buissness and they need to make money and no a buissness does not "owe" us there loyalty, they owe it to there share holders. But than again this is not a ordinary buissness in a ordinary market. The hobby market IS very customer driven and as they themselves have said they need our word of mouth advertising to help them grow as much as they need anything else. With that said there is data saying they are strugling ie, made a profit but at lower sales volume of higher prices while cutting employees and stores across the board to show that profit. So Mr. Mystery you continually ask us for evidence to support the idea that what they are doing is bad buisness and we show you, you still say well there GW they know whats best. We say they are falling right now and without some changes they will fail(we don't know if they will make these changes but past history is the best judge of future performance) and you still say there GW they know best. So now i ask you Mr Mystery will you please just let us continue our wishlisting for a better future of what is a great hobby setting and not turn these threads into a name calling flame fest.

Apologies for bad spelling,grammar and general wall of texness.

LOL, a company must be in a very unpleasant place if they get so many complaints they can afford to build a library of stock responses to copy-paste into every letter they get.

Eh, sounds like Mr. Mystery is associated with Games Workshop in one form or another.

If this is the true face of Games Workshop, we are totally screwed.

GW is being run perfectly as a machine to fund the personal wealth of it's management. During the good years, they load up on millions in bonus money. During the bad years, they load up on stock options while the market hates their stock. Then cut costs and raise prices and eek out a profit. Then they exercise their options and pay a dividend to themselves.

What possible reason does Wells have for changing anything about how GW runs? He's freaking rich off of GW and how it has operated. Regardless of what happens to GW in the future, Wells, Kirby, et al, are all going to retire very, very nicely.

GW has been an amazing cash machine for the upper management of GW. Why would anyone change anything if they were feeding at that trough?

frozenwastes wrote:GW is being run perfectly as a machine to fund the personal wealth of it's management. During the good years, they load up on millions in bonus money. During the bad years, they load up on stock options while the market hates their stock. Then cut costs and raise prices and eek out a profit. Then they exercise their options and pay a dividend to themselves.

What possible reason does Wells have for changing anything about how GW runs? He's freaking rich off of GW and how it has operated. Regardless of what happens to GW in the future, Wells, Kirby, et al, are all going to retire very, very nicely.

GW has been an amazing cash machine for the upper management of GW. Why would anyone change anything if they were feeding at that trough?

Seems to pretty much sum things up...

Flashman wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Lol, it would be good though. Put Dakka in the boardroom and see what happens after a week HMBC would have a new Codex Chaos Marines (the ice cream edition) at the printers by coffee break on Monday morning.

And I'd make sure the codex was only availabe as part of a 200.00 set that came with squads of each 6-9 man squads of each flavor of chaos. New sculpts of all the chaos legions and offshoots, each squad in their sacred number. Then you'd all go crazy trying to trade with each other to fill out your mono-god armies, and GW would be packing the money to the bank, and I'd get a cookie for making the investors happy. If it failed, I'd blame HBMC.

Ohh the mudslinging...

Honestly a letter was written, to that a letter was received. I like that a well written letter was composed - OP you're the bomb for doing it in the first place and for sharing your endeavor with us.

That being said I don't know how much a second letter is going to do. The main points for me on this thread are...

Some people believe GWs actions as good and/or necessary. Some people do not. I do not.

frozenwastes wrote:GW is being run perfectly as a machine to fund the personal wealth of it's management. During the good years, they load up on millions in bonus money. During the bad years, they load up on stock options while the market hates their stock. Then cut costs and raise prices and eek out a profit. Then they exercise their options and pay a dividend to themselves.

What possible reason does Wells have for changing anything about how GW runs? He's freaking rich off of GW and how it has operated. Regardless of what happens to GW in the future, Wells, Kirby, et al, are all going to retire very, very well.

GW has been an amazing cash machine for the upper management of GW. Why would you change anything if you were feeding at that trough?

Sadly enough he makes a great point. The cynic in me totally agrees. How far does GW sink before the vampires let loose of the neck? I wonder if Kirby and Wells would each take a 100k paycut to hire some sculptors? Nah probably not.

The funniest thing I read in this thread was someone equating the Space Hulk success in sales due to some sort of nostalgia factor. Umm using that logic all GW stuff should sell well. Codices especially - seeings how long they are between updates.

The training points that were brought up were notoriously out of place too. I understand training ultimately saves money. But who the hell are they training that matters certainly not the sculptors, painters or rules lawyers....(Ya know the people they need more of). Can't train a sculptor to be save GW money.

Anyways my thoughts are scattered on this. I'm glad OP actually got a response from Wells. But honestly sending counterletters isn't going to do much besides making you feel better. I think they've already played their turn.

-MightyG

mikhaila wrote:

Flashman wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Lol, it would be good though. Put Dakka in the boardroom and see what happens after a week HMBC would have a new Codex Chaos Marines (the ice cream edition) at the printers by coffee break on Monday morning.

And I'd make sure the codex was only availabe as part of a 200.00 set that came with squads of each 6-9 man squads of each flavor of chaos. New sculpts of all the chaos legions and offshoots, each squad in their sacred number. Then you'd all go crazy trying to trade with each other to fill out your mono-god armies, and GW would be packing the money to the bank, and I'd get a cookie for making the investors happy. If it failed, I'd blame HBMC.

It's hard to tell if you're kidding or not here, but I'm going to assume it's a joking response and laugh. Also, not just 6-9 man squads, but also multiples of those numbers (6, 12, 18/7,14,21/8,16/9,18). That would be fair. The fluff-lovers would go ape-dung!

timetowaste85 wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Flashman wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I dunno man, but I trust GW knows what it's doing a helluva lot more than we do.

I would not advise putting your shirt on it.

Really? You think GW is going to hand the controls over to a bunch of geeks on the interwebz so you get the chance to do things better?)

Lol, it would be good though. Put Dakka in the boardroom and see what happens after a week HMBC would have a new Codex Chaos Marines (the ice cream edition) at the printers by coffee break on Monday morning.

And I'd make sure the codex was only availabe as part of a 200.00 set that came with squads of each 6-9 man squads of each flavor of chaos. New sculpts of all the chaos legions and offshoots, each squad in their sacred number. Then you'd all go crazy trying to trade with each other to fill out your mono-god armies, and GW would be packing the money to the bank, and I'd get a cookie for making the investors happy. If it failed, I'd blame HBMC.

It's hard to tell if you're kidding or not here, but I'm going to assume it's a joking response and laugh. Also, not just 6-9 man squads, but also multiples of those numbers (6, 12, 18/7,14,21/8,16/9,18). That would be fair. The fluff-lovers would go ape-dung!

Half kidding, half remembering the fun of the first fantasy plastics box that came with stuff for like 6 armies and we all traded stuff around.)
If I was put in charge of GW I'd have a goal of making you all so happy you dumped every bit of cash to me. Since I'd also be obliged to abuse you, I'd have to come up with warped marketing schemes that drove you insane but you couldn't resist. Imagine a big box of 100 plastic Chaos marines with one squad of each power or flavor, with sculpts like what they did for spacehulk, and a spiffy new Codex dedicated to the individual legions, and incorporating Daemons and old favorites like Lost and Damned. Slap a 200.00 price tag on it, (300 in Canada, 400 in Australia, of course), and then kick back to watch the internet explode.)

I'd go nuts over that! And I think most of us would. I can honestly say, I'd spend MORE money if items were less expensive and I could get more for my buck. Now I spend very little each month on warhammer (maintenance costs). If GW went back down, to say...Mantic costs (like they used to be) I'd spend an arm and a leg on my current income. I'm sure I'm not alone here. Also, since I go on the road a lot, I REALLY need to find time to visit your store Mikhaila. I need to know first though, do you have a parking lot that will support a LARGE, 30-35ft long vehicle?

timetowaste85 wrote:I'd go nuts over that! And I think most of us would. I can honestly say, I'd spend MORE money if items were less expensive and I could get more for my buck. Now I spend very little each month on warhammer (maintenance costs). If GW went back down, to say...Mantic costs (like they used to be) I'd spend an arm and a leg on my current income. I'm sure I'm not alone here. Also, since I go on the road a lot, I REALLY need to find time to visit your store Mikhaila. I need to know first though, do you have a parking lot that will support a LARGE, 30-35ft long vehicle?

Main store is in a mall. We've got parking for about 500 vehicles that size.)

Spent today taking delivery on 2.5 tons of slatwall and putting it up on the walls of the new store. We'll be moved up there by Dakkacon on the 8th. (And I'll need some games and beer by then!) We're going from 2100 to 5500 square feet. That's a lot of store to fill with games. Time your arrival for after we move.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Space Hulk was released in September. The first I heard about it was on BoLS in February of the same year, and I know others had heard about it prior to that.

All the secrecy did was get GW staff threatened with sacking should they discuss it with anyone.

Yeah. That secrecy sure 'worked'.

Along with which, it was a unique case in that it was something that people had been clamouring for for a decade, and that GW decided to release as a limited run. So yes, even if it had been kept a secret up until release (which it most certainly wasn't) it would have done well. But that's hardly proof that more normal releases will benefit from the same sort of nonsense.

By contrast, we have had people over the years state that they had lost patience waiting for something, anything, to be released for their army and were just dumping the game and moving on as a result. Finding more of that sort of thing happening seems to me to be the far more likely result of GW keeping everything they're working on under wraps than any appreciable boost in sales.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
And for what its worth, no, if GW started operating in a manner that recognised and respected its customer base, its customers would not always find a bone to pick.

Then explain why people always complain constantly like they do about GW about Private... Battlefr... Corvus Be... Mant...

Hmmm... methinks you may have a point.

insaniak wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Space Hulk was released in September. The first I heard about it was on BoLS in February of the same year, and I know others had heard about it prior to that.

All the secrecy did was get GW staff threatened with sacking should they discuss it with anyone.

Yeah. That secrecy sure 'worked'.

Along with which, it was a unique case in that it was something that people had been clamouring for for a decade, and that GW decided to release as a limited run. So yes, even if it had been kept a secret up until release (which it most certainly wasn't) it would have done well. But that's hardly proof that more normal releases will benefit from the same sort of nonsense.

By contrast, we have had people over the years state that they had lost patience waiting for something, anything, to be released for their army and were just dumping the game and moving on as a result. Finding more of that sort of thing happening seems to me to be the far more likely result of GW keeping everything they're working on under wraps than any appreciable boost in sales.

I'd have to agree, I know of a few DE players who didn't just " abandon ship" because "leaks" about upcoming DE releases kept them hopeful they'd get tossed a bone some time soon.