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Someone give the guy who wrote this letter his dumdum back.

I think he needs a good sook.

Defiance is useless

really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.


oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.

Grot 6 wrote:
Just do what I'm doing.


Move on, and go find more games worth your time.


GW's !#$ing done.


Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.


Move on, other games out there need your attention.

Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
Just do what I'm doing.


Move on, and go find more games worth your time.


GW's !#$ing done.


Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.


Move on, other games out there need your attention.

Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

I don't think they're "DEAD AND BURIED FOREVER" right now, but look at their pattern: Over the past few years, their sales have generally been flagging. Their solution has been to close hobby centers, reduce staff, etc., standard cost cutting measures, and raise their prices. Their income has remained fairly flat because of this. Essentially, they haven't shown any growth, and the only reason they haven't shrunk significantly is because they're raised prices and cut costs.

The problem is, eventually, they won't be able to cut costs any further, and their prices will be beyond what people are willing to pay. It's hard enough to get people interested in Warhammer when they have to pay 200 to 300 USD just to get started. Yet GW continues to raise prices, well beyond the rate of inflation. For the past five years they've continually said, in their investor relation reports, "We now know what we need to do to grow. We've got everything in place." But for the past five years, they haven't shown any significant growth. In fact, I believe last year, they showed some shrinkage, albeit fairly insignificant shrinkage. They seem to think that this embargo is somehow going to help, but I really doubt the Aussies who bought from Maelstrom and spent $33 AUD on troop boxes are going to go merrily spend $55 AUD at local game stores. If anything, they're probably just going to give up buying GW products.

Basically, reading the IR reports, IMO, shows a company that doesn't really know what to do and, in fact, is in denial that they might be in trouble.

As to the original topic of this thread:

I pretty much stopped reading after "your fired". Poor grammar and a confrontational attitude pretty much means the letter will be ignored.

GW still has legs, just has to learn how to use them.

They're expanding into new Markets from what I see (like Russia) and that's not something you tend to do when the pressure is really on. Sales are indeed down, but then we are also in a pretty severe global recession. Profits of course, are still being made.

To say they're stuffed is just wishful thinking I'm afraid.

It will be interesting to see if he gets a response to this letter.

happygolucky wrote:Defiance is useless

really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.


oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.

This is not the case of not just putting the prices down. Many people are sick and tired of paying a premium for sub par product.

As stated before I GOT MONEY. BUT I refuse to give Games workshop the amount of money that I used to give because of the rules that favor one codex over another. Codexes that favor the SM/IG over everyone else. The only reason why I still pay $20.00 dollars per month is that is what I feel is right when I go and try to play a game at a GW store.

I Vote with MY wallet and in my Region there IS a desired effect.

In all fairness, yes, i agree, when i started playing a land Raider was like, 30pounds, now, its 41, its just not even funny

RatWolf wrote:In all fairness, yes, i agree, when i started playing a land Raider was like, 30pounds, now, its 41, its just not even funny

When I started out the Land Raider was £12.99 I think.

That was so much money I never got one, but then my pocket money was like 50p a week.

I got the 3 Rhinos for £9.99, but that was only after going halvesies with my brother. :(

I mean, in their defense, i feel like 40k is in a worse state than Fantasy, i think 20 clanrats for £20 isnt all that bad but ....

notprop wrote:

RatWolf wrote:In all fairness, yes, i agree, when i started playing a land Raider was like, 30pounds, now, its 41, its just not even funny

When I started out the Land Raider was £12.99 I think.

That was so much money I never got one, but then my pocket money was like 50p a week.

I got the 3 Rhinos for £9.99, but that was only after going halvesies with my brother. :(

Try buying a bit of chrome with a Harley Davidson logo on it....


Jake

Dracheous wrote:Anyway; I'm not targeting you personally here, or at the very least its not my intention. But you voiced one of the common arguments I hear: "But GW is only doing it in the interest of keeping afloat so we can keep playing their game." <snip> You've said that its only clear to you that the business model is sound; but its not.

Actually, that wasn't my argument and I'm sorry if I wrote it like it was. My only intent was to portray GW's decisions as business oriented with the goal of the business remaining functional and profitable and when possible growing. I intended no value assesment on their pricing, marketing, or distribution policies other than to state that doing what your fans/customers demand you to do will cause the eventual ugly death of your company. Most anyone with a business degree with understand what I mean by this. Could GW's prices be lower while still letting them grow as a company? Probably. Does GW management want to wring every last penny they can out of their "loyal customer base"? Quite probably. Is GW's business model sound? Do other companies suceed with a different model? The answer is yes to both questions. Revell has made military and car models for much longer than GW. Companies that cator to model railroad enthusiasts are still going strong since the 1950s. So a different approach can certainly be taken and work very well. The real question is, does GW have any incentive to change their current business model? Well, they've been doing this for over 20 years at least and they're still growing and still "King of the Hill" so to speak so I think the unvarnished facts show that they really don't have to.

I don't take opposing views personally. Some people on Dakka have called me an apologist, but I'm really not. I'm just conscious of what the facts are and have chosen to buy models from a company that sells them at a premium. Do I wish I could get them cheaper? Of course. In fact, I do most of my shopping on eBay where the discounts are; I always have. I'm not stupid, after all. I've refused trade offers in my two trade threads because people would rather sell me their models instead of trading for stuff I list. It's taken me three months to get a decent unit of Ironguts because people just aren't giving them up and I refuse to pay retail for the box - even the Battalion box. Still, I understand full well what GW is doing and it is always my choice to buy their product or go elsewhere. I guess my perspective may be different because I'm a modeller, not a gamer. I love building, converting, painting, and showing off my work more than I do actually playing. Maybe that's because I generally don't like GW's game design or maybe I just really like the amazing models they're making. Will I ever leave GW? I'm not a fanboy so as soon as someone starts making high quality sculpts in plastic for less than GW does, I very well may. In the meantime I'm not going to pretend like I'm being victomized by a merciless corporation when each purchase I make is clearly my own choice.

That was super harsh.

Ah, nerd rage.

I guess I'll never understand the type that instead of simply stopping playing a game that they don't want to play sends an angry and poorly-typed hate letter.

Having worked in customer service I'm sure that the people in the office all forwarded that around and had a good chuckle at the author's expense.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Defiance is useless

really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)
are overruled as they are the only "supermarket" wargaming store (do you see PP stores in your place), and therefore its the only wargame most noobs know.


oh and someone posted that everyone might leave GW and join PP please don't, wargame makers are like politicians, look at GW at the beginning they were all right and after a few million fans look at them now...I fear that if PP get a few more million fans they will become the same.

This is not the case of not just putting the prices down. Many people are sick and tired of paying a premium for sub par product.

As stated before I GOT MONEY. BUT I refuse to give Games workshop the amount of money that I used to give because of the rules that favor one codex over another. Codexes that favor the SM/IG over everyone else. The only reason why I still pay $20.00 dollars per month is that is what I feel is right when I go and try to play a game at a GW store.

I Vote with MY wallet and in my Region there IS a desired effect.

to be faily honest the rules dont really favor anyone

its actually the codexes revolve around the rule book

look at the recent releses, they all have had the better rules scince dark eldar relese so really its the "latest codex wins" type of thing (althogh GK are just the harshest codex available) but there all beatable still.

the problem i have is the prices (like everyone else) if they sold a deff dread for £12.99 people would be buying triple of that product hence more gamers would be intoduced to the hobby and GW would be making the same or more mony and everyone would be happy, it is just the case of GW is blind to their options.

I've always thaought that they should have kept the bits options and need to finish some of their lines like tyranids. However after playing this game for several years, I have noticed that GW produces armies that are better than any of the previous ones so that they can make money.

Now about the letter, there are so many grammar issues with it that nobody will take it seriously because they can barely understand it.

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.

I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)

mikhaila wrote:

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.

I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)

Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.

Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."


Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.

Slarg232 wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

No, it's not bad at all. Your statement is pretty close to reality. There are a lot of people though, who when they quit a game want everything left to burn and die. Some high % of Warmachine players are ex-GW players. I've heard them yelling that GW is dead for nearly a decade. GW is still a magnitude ahead of any competitors for overall sales, distribution, and total value of the company. They have problems, but so do all the smaller companies. We see more of GW's financials, and none of companies like PP, so it's hard to compare. But GW has very little debt, and their stock is doing good.

I'm like everyone else in that I'd like to see certain changes. But in no way are they in as bad a position as some people wished they were.)

Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.

Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."


Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.

Neither is an 'investment' of time or money. Just an expense for your hobby. The money and time are gone as soon as you spend them.

If you like video games, they xbox game is a better deal. If you want to play with toy soldiers, it isn't.
Many people will do both, and pay the cost of both. Not an either/or proposition. As long as enough people are buying what GW sells, and they continue to turn a profit and keep shareholders happy, they will do fine. There are some warning signs right now, but that's about it. And with this economy, a lot of other companies are looking worse than GW.

happygolucky wrote:really though the "vote with your wallet" thing isn't working because if it was GW would be putting prices down and its all because of the infinite 12 year olds getting sucked in as well as people try to do these kind of things but they (unfortuntly)

It's not working because even out of the adult playerbase of GW games, people who post on forums are in the minority. There's far more people out there who don't post on forums, and mostly don't care about price increases, because all they do is buy the occasional box and play pretty casually.

GW: make things cheaper.

EVERYTHING FORGIVEN.

mikhaila wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Be that as it may, it's alot better investment of time and money to pay $60 for a video game, other $51 for a single tank. They can't raise prices much more than what they currently are, simply because it's starting to compete with other forms of entertainment.

Yeah sure, a Model is totally different from a Game, but look at it from Tommy Space Marine Player Tydik: "I bought Space Marine for the 360, and I think the world is pretty cool. Hey, it's a game you can play with models! Sweet! Oh wait.... I can buy Space Marines for $60 for ten Marines, or I can buy Skyrim, which comes out in four days....."


Also, (and this is pointed at everyone) don't bring up the fact that you have to buy a Xbox 360 for the games, since you have to buy a book, Rulebook, and a Starter Set to get into this game, coming close to the $300 a 360 costs.

Neither is an 'investment' of time or money. Just an expense for your hobby. The money and time are gone as soon as you spend them.

If you like video games, they xbox game is a better deal. If you want to play with toy soldiers, it isn't.
Many people will do both, and pay the cost of both. Not an either/or proposition. As long as enough people are buying what GW sells, and they continue to turn a profit and keep shareholders happy, they will do fine. There are some warning signs right now, but that's about it. And with this economy, a lot of other companies are looking worse than GW.

Both are an investment of time and money: You pay for them (with money), and you put them together/paint/play with them (Models), or you merely pop it in and play (Video Games) both eating up time.

As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.

Slarg232 wrote:As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.

Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.

You've got your veiwpoint from your personal experience, I have mine. Mine is attatched to running a game store 70 hours a week for a couple of decades. After selling a many dozens of starter sets to people that first got exposed to GW from video games, I'd have to disagree with you. DOW and now the new Space Marine game are great advertising for GW.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:Both are an investment of time and money: You pay for them (with money), and you put them together/paint/play with them (Models), or you merely pop it in and play (Video Games) both eating up time.

Well, I guess we have a different definition of 'investment'.)

When I 'invest' money into something, I want a return. Just eating up time with a video game is sort of like buying stock in Borders Books.

mikhaila wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:As for doing both: I was hooked into Warhammer at an early age. I also grew up with a SNES controller in hy hands. I have a good 70 $60 games for my Xbox 360. I also have a good 2000 pts of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Orcs and Goblins, and then 500 pts of Beasts of Chaos. I have visited forums for both. I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top, hell, I know people who loved the flying feth out of DoW and still don't realize its a TT game. My point is, they are not going to increase sales through video games, because most gamers wont be willing to put aside buying Modern Warfare 75 or Bioshock Infinite or whatever to spend $60 on some models they don't know how to use.

Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.

You've got your veiwpoint from your personal experience, I have mine. Mine is attatched to running a game store 70 hours a week for a couple of decades. After selling a many dozens of starter sets to people that first got exposed to GW from video games, I'd have to disagree with you. DOW and now the new Space Marine game are great advertising for GW.

Boom.

DOW got me into 40k.

Just saying.

mikhaila wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:I can gaurruntee you, no one who gets exposed to Warhammer through Space Marine is going to bother with the Table Top...

Based on the actual evidence of players coming into my store to get into 40k after playing DOW, I'd have to say your guarantee is a bit worthless.

I don't think Slarg232 is too far off the mark. I used to play the Mechwarrior CCG back in the day. WotC tried cross promotion by putting CCG booster packs into one of the Mechwarrior PC games. According to some of the WotC staffers, it didn't really do much to drive players to the CCG.

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
Just do what I'm doing.


Move on, and go find more games worth your time.


GW's !#$ing done.


Too bad they don't understand how @#$%ed they are. Anyone getting in now is wasting thier time.


Move on, other games out there need your attention.

Is GW's situation really this bad? This seems a tad over-pessimistic to me. Am I wrong?

It seems to me that, while GW has some obvious, glaring & inherent flaws, it still commands a relatively strong (if slightly unhappy) fan-base & has a lot of new players coming into the hobby. Am I completely wrong?

Contrary to the guy who says he's making a living off of selling them at 3 or 4 times the price that they started out as?

GW is done. They are more interested in pushing people AWAY from the "Hobby", and in the past two years have done more for other companies then they have for themselves.

Malfaux? Whats that?

FOW? Whats that?

PP? WHO?

Other then WOTC's bang up job of peeing all over D and D? No one could have done any better to crap all over thier company flagship game systems.

Little johnny isn't going to come up into a shop, throw down 500.00 and laugh out the door happy, like they did when they first started out in the gaming world.

I remember when rhinos were three to a box. Land Raiders were 2, and confrontation, GW's IRST necromunda game had more then it's fair share of boxed unit sets that, even though they looked rough- were the dogs low hanging fruit compaired to the alternatives.
Those days are gone for GW. They are never going to come back for them either.

I am bitter at them, but I am still the guy that has pretty much a metric !@#ton of stuff from them in my posession. I gave them a year, they repaid me by peeing in our collective faces.

I've been to three other shops in this town, and 40K doesn't hold the attention that it once did. they're playing PP, firestorm, and FF games, and GW's stuff is being overstocked and looked on as a bad joke.
Yes, they might have a few shineys and lickies and chewies, but for thier prices? THESE days?

Maybe a few more store closings and price raises are going to help them get thier heads out of thier fourth points of contact while they continue to masqurade that as growth.

And to that Russia comment? You really think that they are going to make the sort of money that they were even just a few years ago? Good luck with that sort of thinking, I guess.

personally if GW was losing mony and stores they still would be confused why there there stuff isnt selling

Grot 6 wrote:GW is done. They are more interested in pushing people AWAY from the "Hobby"

I'm sure their board meetings don't involve the managing directors presenting graphs & pie charts showing the optimum ways to push people away from miniature gaming.

I'm sure their board meetings don't involve the managing directors presenting graphs & pie charts showing the optimum ways to push people away from miniature gaming.

This is the internet... don't confuse reality with hyperbole...