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I actually recorded a segment in a recent episode of the Precinct Omega HobbyCast that covered the constructive use of forums for miniatures painters. I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).

Having said that, "good job" is not completely worthless. Even a recorded "view" with no comment isn't completely worthless. If someone took the time to look at your thread but didn't comment, then you at least know that the thread title is attractive. If someone took the effort to post even a minimal comment then that is, in itself, a compliment.

I paint professionally, but many of my threads get no comments at all or very few. I don't need to be told I'm good at painting, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate knowing that someone enjoyed looking at my work.

R.

ah the interwebz... biggest collection of miscommunicated verbiage ever...

If someone posts pics without asking for feedback, and they get a perceived negative comment (for some you should read the last 3 words again) then the onus is on the OP to handle it. They can't control what's being said unless they specifically outline what they want as a response (which then makes them responsible for how they handle the answer one way or the other). If they don't know how to handle it they could probably learn how... (but i'm not getting into that now... will be here all evening)

Having said that though, IF they post and ask for feedback, here is one technique to provide it in a useful way... it's called a 'feedback sandwich' (or feedback sammich... mmmm tasty)

1. Give them something positive (and it doesn't have to relate to the paint job)
2. Provide the critique
3. Finish with positive

ie..

"Hey cool, i like the colour selection (positive), just keep up the practice with the lining in (feedback), though overall it's coming along (positive)". Notice you don't have to specifically point out the crap paint job, but something pertaining to the mini might actually work (like the colour scheme)...

If it's so bad you wouldn't even wish it upon your worst enemy, don't post anything, have a cold one and use some eye drops...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).

ah don't you hate that? beat me to it...

There does need to be a point where honest criticism could be given, but the problem is that there's no common standard on which to base it. Yes, there's the Golden Demon standard, but not everyone wants their models to look like that. Some gamers want their armies to be tabletop ready, which is a very different thing.
So what do you do? Be entirely clear at the start when posting pics, and get appropriate (one hopes!) responses? Or go for: "Looks great for tabletop, but if you want Golden Demon quality you could try x, y, z?".

Criticism is always hard to hear, even if you're expecting it, and some people will be able to use it, and some people won't - that's for them to decide. One thing that I was taught at Uni, and I've used ever since in my classes, is that you're criticising the WORK, not the PERSON. Criticising artwork of any kind tocuhes on the ego because you put something of yourself in your work, but there's a vast difference between saying a piece of work is low-standard and saying the same thing of a person.
The 'why' is also important - saying something sucks is useless. Saying it sucks because of x, y, z is more constructive - especially if you can say a good way of saying it!

There's a difference in the CMON crowd of painters 'look at this uber squad' or the 'uber' army that is done by a professional artist. Most of us aren't professional artists.

It's a bit like porn, they generally all look great but your average real woman does not look like that. Boobs tend not to defy gravity that much etc.

I'm bad at art. I'm a scientist and I'm married. I have a life outside of 40k so when I get painting time I want to get my armies painted efficiently but reasonably nice. I generally get complemented on my *army* as its often the only fully painted army being fielded where I play. Sure the uber painter guy has a nice HQ.. but the rest of his army is grey!

'Realistic' Marines

'Porn' Marines

I would like to think that My Marines (90% done) are in the realistic category. (maybe I'm wrong!)

Dakka is a large community and not everyone has the same standards.

For someone who can barely put a space marine together and doesn't paint at all a slapdash paintjob with thick paint that doesn't keep within the lines can be a "good job".

For those who can understand when a miniature has been painted to a very good standard using a variety of techniques and an interesting colour palette the words "good job" may be absolutely heartfelt and meant as a way of complimenting the painter because they want to leave a comment but haven't got the knowledge to add anything more constructive or enlightening.

It's subjective and therefore always open to interpretation.

If I see a horrorshow in the Showcase forum I close and move on, I compliment those bits of work that I do find well painted, but it's all just my opinion of what's good and what's not.

Honestly that way I got better was through negative feedback, as once I got it I did not want to get it again, so I thinned my paints and practiced and now I help friends with their models. I agree with the OP that sometimes tough love is really what a new or untrained painter needs.

Phototoxin wrote:I would like to think that My Marines (90% done) are in the realistic category. (maybe I'm wrong!)

They look really nice
I think you could improve them by giving them to me
I like your tie

I generally agree with the OP.

The thing that bothers me the most about the comments in the P and M section is not that people give compliments freely, but rather the way people seem to pussyfoot around giving criticism. The worst perpetrator: "your paint looks a little thick", "try thinning your paint", "try mixing your paint with water before applying it". This has become the default comment for poor work. There is a real push on this board to be polite and that is a good thing. There is no need to be rude, but people should feel free to bullet point all the things lacking in a particular piece of work. If the poster doesn't want to hear people's honest opinions, don't post. If the model looks awful, people should feel free to make comments as direct as "I really don't like how this is painted because..." or "I think you need to make more of an effort to get this to tabletop standard because..." rather than "Try thinning your paint". The latter comment may be true, but if you simply present that as your comment the poster may be inclined to believe that water + paint is the answer to their painting woes (when in reality they need perhaps 5 years of trial and error, for example). While saying a positive as a preface to a negative is nice, I don't think people should refrain from cutting to the heart of the matter.

I conjecture that criticism of poor painting and will lead to improvement faster than encouragement of the same.

Why bother about these "nice job" get by others ?
Do you think this devaluate your own work or the quality of feedbacks on it ?

If you disagree about some painting skills, techniques or whatever, you can post on your own in concerned thread ?

I am a very bad painter (Edit for next post : Ya, I am a bit too much impatient ! But I agree with the fact that practice is the way to go ). I don't even think about posting pics of my miniatures on Internet because there is no point on it. But I want to be able to say "Nice job" to those who are a little better than me if I like what they are doing, even if they are far far faaaaaaar away of skilled hobbyist.

That doesn't means I can't evaluate the difference between a very good painter and an average/still practicing one.

Each comment is up to the one posting it. It's really only a mater of point-of-view, I suppose.

precinctomega wrote:I actually recorded a segment in a recent episode of the Precinct Omega HobbyCast that covered the constructive use of forums for miniatures painters. I also recommended the "compliment sandwich" (good expression).

That's one way of putting it, I'm more familiar with the term "s**t sandwich, packing a bit of bad news between two bits of good news.




Anyway I know where the OP is coming from. I generally dislike dishonesty so if I don't want to give false praise and can't think of much new to say I generally skip a thread. I'll often leave it to others to give the standard advice for new painters. Give encouragement and genuine advice, don't be destructive and rude. There's enough non-painters in this hobby without undermining those making the effort.

I think the idea that some 'fish for compliments' is a little overstated. But I do see it on occasion, someone will put up something that is not very good at all, and when it is pointed out to them even in the nicest terms they become very defensive, even aggressive, either because they are deluded as the to quality of their work (they were hoping it would be a GD contender) or think they had a right only to expect compliments. I won't give specific examples because to do that or link to images of other people's work as a demonstration of 'bad painting' is not very nice at all, keep criticism of people's work in the threads where they ask for feedback, dragging it out elsewhere in the forum uninvited is trolling/bullying.

aerethan wrote:Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).

Not true IMO, unless you have a disability affecting eyesight or motor control pretty much anyone can reach a reasonable proficiency with practice and effort. I think people who paint dreadfully and declare they just can't paint are mostly impatient and unwilling to invest the time and effort required. Maybe this is related to the thing some are describing where people are heaped with praise from a young age and come to expect good results from things quickly. I consider myself a good painter, I'll never win a GD but my work is good. I didn't get there overnight, most good painters are not magically talented.

Lots of debatable paragraphs on this thread.

I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.

In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.

Thats real life but the internet is a completely different beast!
Here you don't have eye to eye contact, you don't know age and you cant figure out what's going on the other side... the only thing left is politeness and thats why people SHOULD be a bit more polite online and thats why many comments are just expressing politeness and motivational paragraphs and thats much better than empty threads.

Is there room for picky comments online? Yes! I do them all the time... to people I know online for several years, on private forums, chats, PM's etc... People I know that are interested genuinely on improving by ideas confrontation etc.

Thats it... Online be polite when posting about someone ( you don't know) personal expression on a determined hobby.

I didn't want to quote many kind of arrogant sentences from the OP but I would like to just quote one that slide under the radar.

aerethan wrote:No one should be proud of something they aren't good at. I don't flaunt my high school diploma and all the D's I graduated with. Granted that was mostly from being lazy and skating by, but I am not proud of it.

If your best is terrible, find something else. Have a friend or commissioner paint for you.

Who are you to decide what is Good and What people should be proud off?
And if your best is terrible GTFO????
I cannot compute the line of thinking and I just smell hatred.

For all it takes I could consider your painting level crap and you should also GTFO! See what I did here? Not cool is it?

NAVARRO wrote:I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.

In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.

I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out. If someone painting to a high standard can't handle genuine feedback of their work they aren't asking for a critique for fine improvement, they are just showing off their work. They don't need praise to boost confidence as much as a beginner who needs a little encouragement coupled with some basic guidance.

I have seen threads where something excellent is on display and many just say "wow" but the person that makes criticism is shouted down... that misses the point.

Personally, I find it best to just not comment at all if I really think it's that bad not just painting and modelling, but with everything. If it really is at the bottom of the barrel, then simple practice will improve a person a lot. Once they've got a handle on the basics, then you can go on to say "I like this, but that could use some work". If the painter can't handle that, they shouldn't be on the interwebz beginner or no, being told where you can improve is not a bad thing...

And I pretty much agree with the OP - when even I know what could use improving on a mini, I cannot abide it when no one seems to want to offer advice or point this out a comment of 'nice job' is completely, singularly unhelpful. Tell someone what you like about it, tell someone what you don't like about it, do pretty much anything except post just two copy-pasted words about it...

Howard A Treesong wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I have criticized, judged hundreds of miniatures and even organized some painting comps and I'm not shy to speak my mind about something... so you probably assume I agree with the OP... but on most of his claims I cannot agree with him.

In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.

I think that the higher the standard of painting the more picky the criticism can afford to be because they need fine adjustments not general painting practice. The greater the quality on display the more they will get out of a precise critique and it's unlikely they will be discouraged if their work has a few problems pointed out. If someone painting to a high standard can't handle genuine feedback of their work they aren't asking for a critique for fine improvement, they are just showing off their work. They don't need praise to boost confidence as much as a beginner who needs a little encouragement coupled with some basic guidance.

I have seen threads where something excellent is on display and many just say "wow" but the person that makes criticism is shouted down... that misses the point.

Believe me many competent painters CANT handle ANY critiques ( nuts I know) it all boils down to each ones background... But yes in theory a newcomer should be cuddled much more than a pro.

I have seen those threads also its called fanbase and sometimes they interfere between honest feedback/ artist improvement .
There's much intolerance in this little hobby the only thing we can do is try to learn and try to share what we know politely.

If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...

Trasvi wrote:If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...

"You lose with grace and dignity."
"You take models off the table in a really stylish way."

htj wrote:

Trasvi wrote:If I'm at a tournament, I always find something to compliment about my opponents army. Sometimes I have to stretch though.
If they're badly painted, i'll say 'nice colour scheme'
If the colour scheme is horrible, i'll say 'I really like the pose on that hero he really looks dynamic'
If they have only primed the army, I'll say 'wow, I really like the coherent look of your army'...

"You lose with grace and dignity."
"You take models off the table in a really stylish way."

"You throw the best pie plates"

"I wish I got to roll for so many saves"

"Out of all the power armour I've seen today, your's has to be the best"

If I see a mini which looks like it is obviously someones first paint job, I will purposefully find something to compliment, and maybe help.

Everyone starts somewhere, and being elitist as to the quality that should be posted doesn't help the hobby.

But people posting "nice job", "I like it" or "Nice" should be shot for spam most foul.

Toastedandy wrote:If I see a mini which looks like it is obviously someones first paint job, I will purposefully find something to compliment, and maybe help.

Everyone starts somewhere, and being elitist as to the quality that should be posted doesn't help the hobby.

But people posting "nice job", "I like it" or "Nice" should be shot for spam most foul.

This.

Davylove21 wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:But people posting "nice job", "I like it" or "Nice" should be shot for spam most foul.

This.

Was that supposed to be ironic?

We should be nice, but nice isn't necessarily pussy-footing. We should be trying to help each other. I know the threads with the awesome minis (Roleplayers, Gitsplittas etc) look amazing and we all go 'wow'. But then some of us are human and not carring the gene-seed of the emperor (in terms of painting). It can be demoralising to post up a decent set of minis and for no comments to happen. Yet if something is terrible then it needs to be said - so that the painter can improve. I think constructive criticism is the best approach - not 'your minis are feth ugly, paint better n00b' but more 'have you actually tried drybrushing? >link to tutorial<' or 'next time try and make the eyes yellow instead of beige'

People are good at different parts of painting. I'm really bad at colour selection. I find it hard to figure out what to paint things so I have to research it. Others can just do it naturally. I need to check a chart to make sure that my blood angels should have red bodies, yellow eyes and green purity seals with blue for energy. Some people know that red+green go well, blue pops against red and yellow compliments red. I don't (well I didn't!)

While I agree with the "Compliment Sammich" everyone must remember that these are only opinions and each subjective.

If you frequent these boards like I do, you will larn whose opinion and input is to be trusted and whose carries no weight.

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."

You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap

I was thinking of posting up pics of my table-ready Marines.
It'll be something to compare against when I get to Golden Deamon standard

Nothing is a waste of plastic, if the paint comes off.

A rough start is still a start, and better than the hordes of plastic-coloured plastic a lot of people bring to the table. At least you know what figure is what.

When someone posts a poorly painted miniature in the painting show-off area, I look at what they post.

Do they say "Comments/feedback, please!" or "What do you think?" They are asking for feedback at that point.

If so, then politely provide constructive feedback. "You should prime your miniatures before you paint so that it holds the paint better." "A wash or highlight on the face/cloak would make a world of difference." and so on.

Do they say "Isn't this awesome?" The best reply is to probably stick with the above answer.

In fact, even if they don't ask for feedback, shouldn't we all assume that if a person shares their work then they are asking for feedback? Otherwise, what is the point of posting a painted miniature/terrain/whatever on a public discussion forum dedicated to tiny painted army mens?

I completly disagree with the route the OP is taking.

If somone isn't the best painter, no one should be telling them their model is terrible.

At least they painted it, and if they took the time to post it on the forum, they at least tried some.

Is it that hard in these days to give a compliment and advice in the same to help them improve ?

Oh your Necrons look terrible, the paint is on to thick.

instead of.

Its a great start, but the paint is a bit thick and try this and that next time.

There is a polite way to do things, then a wrong way.


If your going to comment on somones paint job that you think is sub par, to me, give advice in a nice way, or don't post at all. I thought gaming and paint forums were meant to be a helpful resource ?

Oh yea.. this is the interwebz... nvm!

I know I'm not the best painter in the world but I do try and shade,highlight and blend colours and I appreciate peoples suggestions on how to improve.

Breeezy wrote:

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."

You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap

Damn. If that's true, that's pretty shameful.

Breeezy wrote:

aerethan wrote:I wasn't using my models as a baseline for good. I was using the models of the people I played against who had been painting for years.

And I never said to tell people their models are crap. I merely said not to coddle them as it is counterproductive. The thread isn't titled "When to tell someone that their work is gak."

You actually told me my models were a waste of plastic...so much for I never tell people their models are crap

I thought your models were metal, so the correct phrase would be a waste of metal ...

In real life and before I critique something I ask the person if they want to hear extreme picky harsh critiques... eye to eye contact I can see what is the people background, age and if they have the stomach to handle it... and I act accordingly to that, there's no formula besides politeness and using brain cells to understand someone background.

Thats real life but the internet is a completely different beast!
Here you don't have eye to eye contact, you don't know age and you cant figure out what's going on the other side... the only thing left is politeness and thats why people SHOULD be a bit more polite online and thats why many comments are just expressing politeness and motivational paragraphs and thats much better than empty threads.

+1

I so wanted to mention this but just took a deep breath instead. Forums like this communicate less than 10% of what's really being said...how do we truly know the motive of the OP when they post the pics?

Well mentioned.