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Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:Luck is a very minimal element of success.

You keep telling yourself that. It's still wrong. Not everyone who works hard can make six digit incomes.

Nope, they can't. But that doesn't mean that they can't be successful.

If luck is an important element of success, are people more lucky today than they were 100 years ago? The standard of living has improved dramatically since the early 1900's...so where did all of this success come from?

The article posted was interesting, but as I read it, I found it smacks of missing data.

I live in a solidly democratic Congressional District in Houston, and found that not many here are Republican and would laugh if you said that all of Texas was "solidly" republican.

So I decided to look at the 10 poorest congressional districts. and the 10 richest.

70% of the 10 Poorest Districts are Democrat while 70% of the 10 richest Districts are Republican.

I am sure this isn't a surprise to anyone... Democrat supporters are mostly the poor. Republican supporters are mostly the well-off.

It would seem that to get ahead, one might reject the "helping hand" of the Democrats as it seems that you will just stay poor? Interesting.


********************************************************************

10 Poorest Congressional Districts

1. NY-16 (Jose Serrano, D) - New York City/The Bronx: Bedford Park, East Tremont, Fordham, Hunts Point, Melrose, Highbridge, Morrisania, Mott Haven, University Heights.
Demographics: 62.8% Hispanic/Latino; 40.7% Other Races; 36.0% African American/Black; 20.4% Caucasian/White; 1.8% Asian; 1.2% Native American/Alaskan Native.
Median Household Income: $19,311
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 94.76% - John McCain (R) 5.04%.
CPVI: D+41

2. KY-05 (Harold Rogers, R) - Southeastern Kentucky: Pikeville, Morehead, Somerset, Corbin, Middlesborough.
Demographics: 97.6% White; 1.1% Black; 0.8% Other; 0.7% Hispanic; 0.3% Asian; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $21,915
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 67.01% - Barack Obama (D) 31.24%.
CPVI: R+16

3. WV-03 (Nick Rahall, D) - Southern West Virginia: Huntington, Beckley, Princeton, Bluefield, Williamson, Oak Hill.
Demographics: 94.4% White; 4.1% Black; 0.9% Other; 0.6% Hispanic; 0.4% Asian; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $25,630
2008 Election Results: John McCain (R) 55.76% - Barack Obama (D) 42.29%.
CPVI: R+6

4. CA-31 (Xavier Becerra, D) - Los Angeles/Hollywood.
Demographics: 70.2% Hispanic; 46.1% Other; 34.2% White; 14.0% Asian; 4.7% Black; 1.1% Native American.
Median Household Income: $26,093
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 79.87% - John McCain (R) 17.83%.
CPVI: D+29

5. AL-07 (Artur Davis, D) - The Black Belt: Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Selma, Irondale, Forestdale, Fairfield, Bessemer, Northport, Demopolis.
Demographics: 62.0% Black; 36.0% White; 1.3% Hispanic; 1.2% Other; 0.6% Asian; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $26,672
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 72.36% - John McCain (R) 27.28%.
CPVI: D+18

6. CA-20 (Jim Costa, D) - Fresno, Sanger, Selma, Hanford, Lemoore, Corcoran, Delano, Wasco, Lamont.
Demographics: 63.1% Hispanic; 44.8% Other; 40.0% White; 7.6% Black; 5.8% Asian; 1.8% Native American.
Median Household Income: $26,800
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 59.59% - John McCain (R) 38.73%.
CPVI: D+5

7. TX-15 (Ruben Hinojosa, D) - Southern Texas: McAllen, Beeville, Harlingen, Weslaco, Alice, Edinburg.
Demographics: 77.6% White; 77.6% Hispanic; 19.5% Other; 1.8% Black; 0.6% Asian; 0.5% Native American.
Median Household Income: $26,840
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 59.69% - John McCain (R) 39.76%.
CPVI: D+3

8. MS-02 (Bennie Thompson, D) - Western Mississippi/Delta: Jackson, Vicksburg, Greenville, Greenwood, Clinton, Clarksdale.
Demographics: 63.5% Black; 35.0% White; 1.2% Hispanic; 0.9% Other; 0.4% Asian; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $26,894
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 65.86% - John McCain (R) 33.57%.
CPVI: D+12

9. LA-05 (Rodney Alexander, R) - Central Louisiana: Monroe, Alexandria, Bastrop, Ruston, Pineville.
Demographics: 64.1% White; 33.9% Black; 1.3% Hispanic; 1.1% Other; 0.5% Asian; 0.4% Native American.
Median Household Income: $27,453
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 61.75% - Barack Obama (D) 36.96%.
CPVI: R+14

10. LA-02 (Joseph Cao, R) - New Orleans, Kenner, Marrero, Timberlane, Estelle.
Demographics: 64.1% Black; 30.2% White; 3.8% Hispanic; 2.7% Asian; 2.6% Other; 0.3% Native American.
Median Household Income: $27,514
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 74.13% - John McCain (R) 24.86%.
CPVI: D+25

10 Richest Congressional Districts

1. VA-11 (Gerald Connoly, D) - Northern Virginia: Mount Vernon, Dale City, West Springfield, Burke, Annandale.
Demographics: 71.4% White; 10.9% Asian; 10.3% Black; 9.1% Hispanic; 7.1% Other; 0.3% Native American.
Median Household Income: $80,397
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 57.02% - John McCain (R) 42.06%.
CPVI: D+2

2. NJ-11 (Rodney Frelinghuysen, R) - Morristown, Madison, Somerville, Dover, Hopatcong.
Demographics: 87.5% White; 6.8% Hispanic; 6.4% Asian; 3.2% Other; 2.8% Black; 0.1% Native American.
Median Household Income: $79,009
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 53.68% - Barack Obama (D) 45.36%.
CPVI: R+7

3. CA-14 (Anna Eshoo, D) - Silicon Valley: Redwood City, Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, Saratoga, Mountain View, Menlo Park.
Demographics: 67.4% White; 17.5% Hispanic; 16.1% Asian; 12.8% Other; 3.1% Black; 0.5% Native American.
Median Household Income: $77,985
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 73.11% - John McCain (R) 24.88%.
CPVI: D+21

4. CA-15 (Mike Honda, D) - Santa Clara, Los Gatos, Campbell, Cupertino, Milpitas.
Demographics: 54.7% White; 29.4% Asian; 17.2% Hispanic; 12.7% Other; 2.5% Black; 0.6% Native American.
Median Household Income: $74,947
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 68.39% - John McCain (R) 29.68%.
CPVI: D+15

5. NJ-07 (Leonard Lance, R) - South Plainsfield, Scotch Plains, Cranford, Westfield, Roselle.
Demographics: 83.4% White; 8.2% Asian; 6.9% Hispanic; 4.6% Black; 3.6% Other; 0.1% Native American.
Median Household Income: $74,823
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 51.16% - John McCain (R) 47.69%.
CPVI: R+3

6. CO-06 (Michael Coffman, R) - Littleton, Centennial, Castle Rock, Aurora.
Demographics: 91.1% White; 5.8% Hispanic; 3.8% Other; 2.7% Asian; 1.9% Black; 0.5% Native American.
Median Household Income: $73,393
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 52.48% - Barack Obama (D) 46.17%.
CPVI: R+14

7. NJ-05 (Scott Garrett, R) - West Milford, Ridgewood, Paramus, Dumont, Bergenfield.
Demographics: 89.3% White; 6.6% Asian; 4.5% Hispanic; 2.4% Other; 1.5% Black; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $72,781
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 53.55% - Barack Obama (D) 45.43%.
CPVI: R+7

8. GA-06 (Tom Price, R) - Vinings, Sandy Springs, Doraville, Dunwoody, Roswell, Alpharetta, Woodstock.
Demographics: 84.4% White; 6.8% Black; 6.2% Hispanic; 4.4% Asian; 4.1% Other; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $71,699
2008 Election Result: John McCain (R) 62.26% - Barack Obama (D) 36.56%.
CPVI: R+19

9. IL-13 (Judy Biggert, R) - Chicago Suburbs: Naperville, Bolingbrook, Downers Grove, Westmont, Woodridge, Orland Park
Demographics: 84.9% White; 6.6% Asian; 5.5% Hispanic; 5.0% Black; 3.3% Other; 0.1% Native American.
Median Household Income: $71,686
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 54.21% - John McCain (R) 44.60%.
CPVI: R+1

10. IL-10 (Mark Kirk, R) - Chicago Suburbs: North Chicago, Waukegan, Highland Park, Northbrook, Buffalo Grove, Arlington Heights, Glenview.
Demographics: 81.2% White; 12.3% Hispanic; 7.2% Other; 5.9% Asian; 5.4% Black; 0.2% Native American.
Median Household Income: $71,663
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 60.92% - John McCain (R) 38.13%.
CPVI: D+6

biccat wrote:The standard of living has improved dramatically since the early 1900's...so where did all of this success come from?

From people who had the good fortune of being able to afford/otherwise obtain a good education, and having the willpower to work hard to improve the technology and science of the world.

Not all of whom succeeded despite their hard work. And the bar of success is raised now from before because of inflation.

Connor McKane wrote:It would seem that to get ahead, one might reject the "helping hand" of the Democrats as it seems that you will just stay poor? Interesting.

...

Not quite sure how to respond honestly. How many logical fallacies did you fit into that sentence? It might be a record.

It seems that the crux of this disagreement is...

One person thinks that people can't do for themselves.

and

One person thinks that people can do for themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:It would seem that to get ahead, one might reject the "helping hand" of the Democrats as it seems that you will just stay poor? Interesting.

...

Not quite sure how to respond honestly. How many logical fallacies did you fit into that sentence? It might be a record.

12, 12 Fallacies! Ah! Ah! Ah! ... I used wikipedia to help me fit all them fallacies in that sentence.

Connor McKane wrote:It seems that the crux of this disagreement is...

One person thinks that people can't do for themselves.

and

One person thinks that people can do for themselves.

No,the crux of the problem is one person believes that someone can get ahead with only hard work, and the other person is looking at reality instead of economic theory and seeing that this is not true.

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:Don't act like there's infinite resources and wealth out there just waiting to reward hard workers. There isn't. And yes, that's exactly what you're acting like.

Nobody gets rewarded. People get compensated. Luck is a very minimal element of success. To be successful you put yourself in a position where luck doesn't matter.

So you don't consider the wealth or societal position of your parents to be a luck thing? That has far more to do with your eventual placement in society then any ideology about 'work'. I've had jobs since i was 15 and I have two degrees. The mid level job in my field is going to barely scrape the bottom of middle class and probably wont at all in a few years time. Am I lazy or are you just wrong?

Connor McKane wrote:12, 12 Fallacies! Ah! Ah! Ah! ... I used wikipedia to help me fit all them fallacies in that sentence.

If this is true and you aren't yanking my chain, you sir just earned yourself a hat



EDIT: In this case, hard work has been rewarded

LordofHats wrote:Not quite sure how to respond honestly. How many logical fallacies did you fit into that sentence? It might be a record.

The original thrust of the article was that poor states are poor because of the GOP. Therefore, if the poor areas really are solidly Democrat, wouldn't that tend to rebut the argument?

Or is this more of a "heads I win, tails you lose" argument that the left loves to engage in?

That is an excellent hat. That hat is excellent.


Oh great, now Biccat is tossing out "the left" and acting like somehow "the left" is any more pompous than "the right".

LordofHats wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:12, 12 Fallacies! Ah! Ah! Ah! ... I used wikipedia to help me fit all them fallacies in that sentence.

If this is true and you aren't yanking my chain, you sir just earned yourself a hat



EDIT: In this case, hard work has been rewarded

Let's say I WAS pulling your chain... can I still keep the hat? It is an exhilaratingly awesome hat!

Connor McKane wrote:Let's say I WAS pulling your chain... can I still keep the hat? It is an exhilaratingly awesome hat!

It's already in the mail so... not much I can do about that... except a mail bomb or something but I'm saving all my explosives for Fran- I mean, What were we talking about? Poor people?

Melissia wrote:That is an excellent hat. That hat is excellent.


Oh great, now Biccat is tossing out "the left" and acting like somehow "the left" is any more pompous than "the right".

Lets not fool ourselves Melissa. This is what it is about, you cannot expect a civil fact based argument when discussing something as pathological as D vs. R.

Right Wing Fella: The fact of the matter is Biccat is right and Melissa is wrong, and nothing you say will change my mind.

Also...

Left Wing Fella: The fact of the matter is that Melissa is right, and Biccat is wrong, and nothing you say will change my mind.

So why in feth's sake do we keep posting gak like this on a WARGAMING SITE!?!?! DO WE EVEN PLAY WARGAMES?!?!

...

I like Blood Angels!

...

I do talk about wargaming... in the wargaming section.

This is the off topic section.

Apt, because this thread is now off topic.

Shhhhh...shhhh... (puts pillow over threads face while crying) Shh... you are going to a better place.... shhhh... shhh... it's almost over...


.....

Please do not spam the forum. Thanks ~Manchu

In my defense, the majority of my last post was well on topic... just that last part...

...and the part about hats. But I blame LordofHats.

Connor McKane wrote:In my defense, the majority of my last post was well on topic... just that last part...

...and the part about hats. But I blame LordofHats.

*gasps*

Quick Watson! We've been had!

*runs*

And come on Shuma. How many threads have you found on off topic that don't turn out badly Let's just accept it as the natural course of events and move on

biccat wrote:

LordofHats wrote:Not quite sure how to respond honestly. How many logical fallacies did you fit into that sentence? It might be a record.

The original thrust of the article was that poor states are poor because of the GOP. Therefore, if the poor areas really are solidly Democrat, wouldn't that tend to rebut the argument?

Or is this more of a "heads I win, tails you lose" argument that the left loves to engage in?

C'mon Biccat... lets not let facts, statistics or logic get in the way of a discussion on how much the GOP sucks! (Hick accent) There's tawkin' points ta' regurgamatate!

Connor McKane wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is an excellent hat. That hat is excellent.


Oh great, now Biccat is tossing out "the left" and acting like somehow "the left" is any more pompous than "the right".

Lets not fool ourselves Melissa. This is what it is about, you cannot expect a civil fact based argument when discussing something as pathological as D vs. R.

Right Wing Fella: The fact of the matter is Biccat is right and Melissa is wrong, and nothing you say will change my mind.

Also...

Left Wing Fella: The fact of the matter is that Melissa is right, and Biccat is wrong, and nothing you say will change my mind.

So why in feth's sake do we keep posting gak like this on a WARGAMING SITE!?!?! DO WE EVEN PLAY WARGAMES?!?!

...

I like Blood Angels!

...

Twin EPIC Eldar revenant titans, put the "chain" into "chain gun Macro cannon." Plus they can fly! Who's your corpse god now baby!

Meh, sure it was an opinion piece, but I felt it did raise a good question on the republican position (or lack thereof) on how it would help the impoverished people amongst its constituency.

I was actually hoping someone would contradict the article, and go and post the party's plans, as I find it odd that there are none.

LordofHats wrote:

Connor McKane wrote:In my defense, the majority of my last post was well on topic... just that last part...

...and the part about hats. But I blame LordofHats.

*gasps*

Quick Watson! We've been had!

*runs*

And come on Shuma. How many threads have you found on off topic that don't turn out badly Let's just accept it as the natural course of events and move on

I don't care about the off topic stuff, i care that from its very core people have walked into this thread with absolutely no knowledge of poverty mechanics or U.S. demographics. The circular and wrong on both sides arguments were killing me.

Melissia wrote:I was actually hoping someone would contradict the article, and go and post the party's plans, as I find it odd that there are none.

If it makes you feel better, I'd point out that there's a reasons those ten poorest states vote Republican and it isn't really related to economics all that much

Politicians in the GOP know they can win Southern States to a degree on religious and moral issues, not economic ones. Cultural ties also lean towards the GOP (Many people vote how their parents vote). If only economic reasons were the only ones that factored into voting practices things would be so much simpler!

Melissia wrote:Meh, sure it was an opinion piece, but I felt it did raise a good question on the republican position (or lack thereof) on how it would help the impoverished people amongst its constituency.

I was actually hoping someone would contradict the article, and go and post the party's plans, as I find it odd that there are none.

Hmm... I thought I did contradict the article with the post that no one read... probably. But, being the helpful kinda fellow I tend to be, I'll fill in the gaps.

I would guess that the GOP plan is to reduce taxes for businesses, and let people make something of themselves... or not.

I don't need a government hand out... if you do, god bless you and I hope you get better soon. Well I am off to work for my evil corporation and do the job I got strictly by luck and or hard work and determination..

Have a great day posting on the internet.

The good news is that we're adding stress to Shuma's life, so at least the thread was somewhat productive.

LordofHats wrote:

Melissia wrote:I was actually hoping someone would contradict the article, and go and post the party's plans, as I find it odd that there are none.

If it makes you feel better, I'd point out that there's a reasons those ten poorest states vote Republican and it isn't really related to economics all that much

Politicians in the GOP know they can win Southern States to a degree on religious and moral issues, not economic ones. If only economic reasons were the only ones that factored into voting practices things would be so much simpler!

This is true. They never give any specifics about economics when they run political ads here... but they LOVE talking about their social policies.

Melissia wrote:The good news is that we're adding stress to Shuma's life, so at least the thread was somewhat productive.

yehhhhsssss. Soon he shall be sacrificed and corn harvest shall begin!

Melissia wrote:This is true. They never give any specifics about economics when they run political ads here... but they LOVE talking about their social policies.

I read a very interesting piece a month ago. The author griped about how silly people were for claiming politicians don't care about their interests. His position being that politicians did care about their interests. Politicians cater to their audiences. The south, even Mississippi the poorest state, heavily invest themselves politically into social and moral issues. Politicians play to this. Its called getting elected

Heck I'm going to play the back nine.

Melissia wrote:No,the crux of the problem is one person believes that someone can get ahead with only hard work, and the other person is looking at reality instead of economic theory and seeing that this is not true.

Just out of curiosity, if luck is such a dominating element of success, why are you bothering to get a good education? Obviously you will only succeed if you're lucky, and hard work isn't going to improve that much.

So just sit back and enjoy life. Either you will succeed or you won't.

Connor McKane wrote:It seems that the crux of this disagreement is...

One person thinks that people can't do for themselves.

and

One person thinks that people can do for themselves.


Nothing but the truth!

biccat wrote:So just sit back and enjoy life. Either you will succeed or you won't.

Meet my friend: John Calvin



I think the two of you can find some common ground. I'll be chatting with Tom Aquinas if you need me

But no seriously. I think you're taking Melissa too seriously. I could be born into the richest family on the planet, and I'm sure I could find some way to end up a failure No one here I think would realistically support the position that hard work is meaningless. Posters are merely proposing that it isn't necessarily enough on its own to ensure success.