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Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


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pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


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Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

West Coast was in California and DE won.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478397

CSM won Midwest 'Ard Boyz Finals.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478813

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/383253.page#3545363
Mechanicon - BA

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3478277
Ard Boyz East - IG

Central Ard Boyz Final was won by Chaos. Local Semi's by DE. Bugeater was won by Chaos. Nova Invitational was won by GK's but the Nova Open was won by Space Wolves. I want to say of the top 16 at the Nova Open (1st day 4-0's) at least 4 were GK's but I could be slightly off. Mike would have to confirm for me.

We'll see what happens at this years events but as yet they haven't been taking #1 at even a quarter of the major events since their release.

Comikaze - IG
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/394584.page#3546785


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BFS - GK
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402651.page#3426567

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


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pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

The portion about attendence is kinda silly because you can't actually make theat claim seriously. Unless you follow everyone around anyway. Plus internet posts results for those that we can't attend and theyre disproving you.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

So what you're saying is if you take a 325 point unit and charge a 200 point unit in the open, that you will probably kill it?

Let's pretend the SW player isn't just standing in the open. That they are in terrain. Now if you charge that unit, you will just lose horribly due to DCAs not having grenades. Now how did that DCA unit and librarian get to those grey hunters? Did they walk? Probably not. They probably took a land raider or a stormraven. And what about getting the ability to even take DCAs? That's at least another inquisitor who's using your other hq slot. So in reality, you paid upwards of 600 points to potentially kill a unit in the open. Good job! You must win a lot!

Alright, time for me to jump in here.

Grey Knights are not dominating tournaments. They are well represented, so naturally they are placing well. As stated, the ‘Ard Boys and most other tournaments are not being won by them.

To add a few more tournaments not being won by Grey Knights:
Feast of Blades –BT
Wargames Con –DE
Bay Area Open-IG
Da Grand Waaagh-SW overall/IG Best General
I could go on, be there has not been the type of tournament domination that you think there is.

And as for as a no brainer list? Now I have heard it all!

I started my Grey Knight army at the Slaughter in Space in LA in June and I finished in the middle of the pack. I then took them to Wargames Con in Texas in July and on day #1 I went 2-2 and did not make it even into the top 32 players in the championship bracket. Next up was The Bay Area Open in August where I went 5-0-2 and I took 3rd place. The last stop on my tour is The Nova Open in Virginia in Sept, and I have to report that Grey Knights did not win the tournament, but in fact, (and I have firsthand knowledge) that they finished in second.

The problem is that you see a Grey Knight army on the top table and assume that the player does not know anything, and it is nothing but easy wins and sunshine. The fact is that I am no stranger to doing well at major tournaments, and even then it took a lot of losses and a long time to hone my army to get it to where I can win consistently.

If you want to see a comparison I would like to point you to the Ork Codex when it first came out. Now that was codex that dominated the tournament scene the way that Grey Knights can only hope to! If you want to talk about a no-brainer army that you can win without even thinking about, I refer you to Scott Simpson who took the Orks to the Chicago GT in 2008 that he borrowed from a friend, and played the army for the first time. With his lack of familiarity he ended up getting second place. Now remember, this was back when GWs GTs were huge, and they were the only game in town.

I refer you to this post that was made during the time and here is my comment there:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219645.page

Blackmoor wrote:Is it me, or does it seem like this is the year of the Green Tide?

Fresh off of their win in the LVGT, they take the top spot at Chicago.

Not only did they win, but they were 3 of the top 7, and 5 out of the top 15.

The past few months I have been playing my Chaos Space Marines who a lot of people think is one of the weaker codexes out there, and I am 2-1 against Grey Knights, and my only loss was because my dice refused to roll above a 4 to damage vehicles.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Being new didn't immediately put Dark Eldar, Blood Andgels, or tyranids on top tables. It probably doesn't help that GKs are the primary foil to two out of the three of those armies though.

DE's point is that you couldn't field BA,DE or Tyranids by opening 3 or 4 boxes of GK Terms and assembling them.

Except, of course, that I can field a 2,000 point BA army with but 4 units in it.

Four.

Yes. That is right.

I blame the Death Company and Vanguard for that.

]Alright, now I am getting warmed up!

Next up is 10 Purifiers vs. 10 Grey Hunters? Come on, how many points is that?

It has been said before but:
Purifiers do not get their force/power weapons on the heavy weapon models.
Rune Priests have a 50% chance of blocking psychic powers, and even then you are testing on LD9, and if you eat a perils of the warp goodbye squad leader.
Grey Hunters get Counter-Attack
Grey Hunters have a banner were they can re-roll all of the “1”s that they roll.
I could go on, but in a point-for point comparison, grey hunters stack up well to purifiers.

And Death Cult Assassins? Come on…are you serious? I have played against many of these and they have never done anything. Do you know why? Because how are you going to get them into assault? The only way is in an expensive Stormraven which gets blown out of the sky, or a land raider which adds over 250 points to the cost, and now has to be in melta range to get the payload into assault. Otherwise you can’t get DCA into assault because you just move away from rhinos and chimeras, or just stand in cover and they can’t hurt you. This is why you can't take units in a vacuum and compare them.

Frothmog wrote:
The topic of this is Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

I think by Augustus pointing out all the things that they can do and then others following up with basically - oh yea? well this army has this one thing that is like one of those, and this army has this one thing that is like one of the other things you pointed out - kind of makes the point of this topic true given that Grey Knights don't have just one or two of those things.... they have all of them... no other codex has all of them.

Challenge excepted!

Again, those with short memories I take you back to 2008 when the Ork Codex first came out when you want to talk about overpowered books.

Now on to the one-on-one comparisons: Grey Knights vs. Eldar! Now remember, this is an illustration, and the Eldar can’t do everything that they Grey Knights can do, but they break a lot of the laws that you hold so dear.

Augustus wrote:Furthermore it is filled with as much or more game breaking precedent than anything ever published:
Mindstrike missiles break the targeting rules
Explained as: NEW: For killing Psykers, it's a completely new problem, it also has absurd range, much worse than jaws, and different. Everyone knows JOTWW is broken, why would continuing THAT trend make a good rule? It doesn't.

Mindstrikes, meet Mindwar. You get to pick any model within 18” and roll off on a leadership check. Not only is it good for killing Psychers, but everything else as well. Note: Back in 3rd edition it had a 36” range. Also Runes of Warding not only kills psychers easily, but unlike anything else in the game.

Augustus wrote:Scoring vehicles
Defined as: NEW: Scoring vehicles that you can define on the fly during a setup

You got me there. And it is before setup, not during. Of course you forgot to point out that you have to pay for a 175+ point IC to get them.

Augustus wrote:Vehicles with psychic powers
Defined as: NEW ALL Vehicles with psychic powers

As said not all of their vehicles have it, and the ones that do only have one power that can be nullified by psychic hoods and Runes of Warding. Second, although the Eldar do not have fortitude I will say that they do have the unique ability of holo-fields that fulfill the same role (increase the vehicles durability/effectiveness) and it can’t be blocked.

Augustus wrote:Units with collective psychic powers’
Defined as: Sorry, right,... how about Whole armies of scoring troop Units with collective psychic powers

You mean like Warlock powers, or like Seer Councils? The Eldar have psychic powers that effect whole units like Doom, Guide and Fortune, but I do not see what casting powers as a collective has to do with anything.

Augustus wrote:Egregious cover manipulation.
Defined as: NEW: Shroud hides tanks. +1 cover for vehicles

Like Pathfinders 2+ cover saves? Or the fact that Fortune let’s you re-roll your cover saves(or any other save) on any unit or vehicle (sounds much better than only a +1 cover save). In Mathammer terms with a 4+cover save 33.3% of the shots will go through Shrouding, 25% through Fortune.

Augustus wrote:Changing the stat lines of other models.
Defined as: Changing the Toughness stat lines of other models

You mean like a Banshee’s War Shout taking you down to WS1? Although I do not really see the difference between Rad Grenades -1 to Toughness and Doom’s re-roll wounds. They are both modifiers to units so they do more wounds; it is just that the mechanics are different. Of course Doom is good in both shooting and the assault phase...and not just in the first round of combat.

Augustus wrote:Immunity to deep strike

Eldar do not have anything like this. (Even though we are talking about Eldar here, there are things that modify deep strike like Land Speeder Storms, and Demonhunter’s Mystics). Oh, and Immunity to Deep Strike? Hardly. You have to take the right units (which suck) and then you have to cast it. So if you go second, deep striking armies will land on turn #1 before you get it off, and it can be blocked by Hoods and Runes of Warding. Add to this that they are casting it on a Leadership of 9, so if you have any kind of psychic defense, you are in great shape.

Augustus wrote:Teleporting for movement.
Defined as: NEW: Teleporting for movement turbo boosting jump packs and monstrous creatures.

Is it the word “Teleporting” that you don’t like or just a movement type that is different than the norm? Because if it is the latter Let’s see, Warp Spiders can do a jump move and can end up moving 24” in a turn. Vehicles have star engines where they move an additional 12” for a total move of 36”. Eldar Jetbikes have a 6” assault move. Swooping Hawks can jump back into reserve.

Playing vs Grey Knights is like playing a different game.

Not really. It is just that we are use to Eldar and what they can do for several editions so their rules do not seem different. It is when you have a new codex with totally new rules they seem to be broken, but they are just new.

Grey Knights are the flavor of the month which makes finding the truth a bit tougher. But they are extremely good... I wont call them op since it makes very little difference to me if they are op or borderline op, its a thin red line in any case. If someones claiming they are not above the curve, I think they are misguided but whats the difference. They are what they are and they are dominating the Finnish tournament scene, but im not stating that as the singular truth.

And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:There were three ard boyz. West, central and east.

Ahh, they won the Seattle one then.


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pretre wrote:Feel free to keep making declarative statements until you hit a true one though.

Feel free to keep misreading tournament reports and presenting false information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:This is kinda funny actually. One thing too thats already been said but.. even if everyone thought they were op. What would it change and why arent they winning every tourney? If they were that easy to play why on youtube are they getting tabled by Eldar? Ill say some things like cleansing flames are kinda silly but theyre sm in rhinos. If you can kill that then maybe smurfs are too much for you too.

ITT you people have no idea what you're talking about and do not attend largescale tournaments.


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Wait a minute, I quit this thread already. What am I still doing here? Imma go play Skryim, you all win.

I enjoy how you basically ignored my post about how your "purifiers vs grey hunters" example was a total croc, keep on making statements and ignoring the information. Blackmoor covered his as well in his recent post.

Also, to the "you people don't attend large tournaments"

-I attend 4-5 GT's a year, and was part of the Invitational (one of the events you are citing, yes?) and the NOVA Open
I believe I also saw, at the very least, blackmoor and hulksmash posting in disagreement...two other players who attend a slew of large tournaments every year, including the invitational and ard boyz

Didn't Darkwyn win the last two Gts? I know he won Feast but was their one before that? I guess BT are broken.....

Good points Blackmoor.

Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

Blackmoor wrote:
And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

Thanks Blackmoor, appreciate all of your points, especially since you're experienced with the army itself and the high-end tourney scene.

In other news, I think Shuma has fled due to lack of proof.

daedalus wrote:Good points Blackmoor.

Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

I heard the Chaos Codex was going to coincide with the apocalypse.

daedalus wrote:Honestly, I wonder if all this rage is going to be present when the next marine book comes out.

Of course, because there are two directions it can go...

If it's weaker than GK, the people who play that army will feel shafted and be unhappy about it.

If it's stronger than GK, the people who think GK are OP will be that much more up in arms about the new one.

Unless the next marine book is CSM, in which case replace the first reaction with "more proof that GW hates non-Imperial armies."

pretre wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
And to sum it up...yes, they are a powerful codex like IG and SW. A lot of it though is that you are unfamiliar with Grey Knights and you do not know there weaknesses yet.

Thanks Blackmoor, appreciate all of your points, especially since you're experienced with the army itself and the high-end tourney scene.

In other news, I think Shuma has fled due to lack of proof.

No, I was playing skyrim and I have a job. I'll get back to this in a bit I guess, though I won't be responding to you.

I prefer to scrap GK than SW with my vanilla SM....

I don't play or own any GK, but its fething daft.

They are well represented because they are new. Simple yes?

I hear that a lot of new armies are overpowered. If all armies are overpowered, than none of them are overpowered. I think most armies have that illusion because they're more powerful than they were.

Also, a lot of "overpowered" units are actually paper units. The Leman Russ variants are good examples. Most of them are actually bad/not good or are extremely situation specific, such as the Punisher.

Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dok wrote:This is a silly thread. No army is an auto-win button unless you're playing against a robot. Time has passed and people have devised tactics to beat GK. Just as they devised tactics to beat SW, just as they devised tactics to beat IG, etc, etc.

Also, Complaining about purifiers when there are Grey hunters out there seems like a silly waste of time. You can take more than 2:1 grey hunters to purifiers when you factor in crowe. I'm sure all the SW players are like "woo hoo! I mean... uh... yeah, those purifiers are crazy OP!!!". And anyways what does complaining about them get done? Do you think GW is gonna come down from on high and ban something? When was the last time that happened... oh, right. Never.

TLR Work on beating lists, not bitching about them.

I'm real sure those space wolves are going to do well when a librarian might of titan+hammerhands a unit of DCAs and they cause (on average) 25 power weapon wounds at initiative six to your gray hunters while being less expensive. I'm sure you'll work all the way through beating the assaulting purifiers which kill gray hunters at a rate of one per three attacks. Gray hunters kill purifiers at a rate of one per twelve. Purifiers do not cost four times what gray hunters do and a squad of 10 purifiers vs a squad of 10 gray hunters in an even fight will result in 6 dead GHs and .66 dead purifiers when you factor in I6 and the fact that kills deny attacks. That's not even counting cleansing flame or the storm bolters.

TLR people whine about others not bootstrapping because they don't want to believe that their game could possibly be unbalanced.

So what you're saying is if you take a 325 point unit and charge a 200 point unit in the open, that you will probably kill it?

Let's pretend the SW player isn't just standing in the open. That they are in terrain. Now if you charge that unit, you will just lose horribly due to DCAs not having grenades. Now how did that DCA unit and librarian get to those grey hunters? Did they walk? Probably not. They probably took a land raider or a stormraven. And what about getting the ability to even take DCAs? That's at least another inquisitor who's using your other hq slot. So in reality, you paid upwards of 600 points to potentially kill a unit in the open. Good job! You must win a lot!

The DCAs will have grenades if they're assaulting from a crusader, in which case they will likely either be acting in a standoff role and countercharging you (since the army will win in a shooting fight) or they'll be multicharging and killing on average 2-3 entire grey hunter squads at the same time before the grey hunters strike back with average rolls. If they are using a raven then they're probably either reserving in or jetting towards a target of opportunity. The threat range is enormous and it's not particularly difficult to chose a target or numerous targets that aren't in cover. This includes vehicles due to Might of Titan giving the MC ability. The inquisitor himself is excellent for the points, gives your army utility, and allows the taking of intensely cheap scoring melta units.

The DCA squad is going to hover around 450 points with vehicle and librarian. Including the inquisitor in that is a red herring as he acts independently from that unit and pretending that the vehicle itself adds nothing is foolish.

We cannot objectively evaluate individual player skill with any degree of accuracy, so the only objective measuring tool we have to judge armies are their battle point (not including soft scores) and win/loss results in tournaments. Thus far, GKs have won essentially 1-2 GTs since their release. DE have actuallly done better and niether have gotten within sniffing distance of SW and IG totals. Both the Ork and SW books dominated the scene in their initial year of release, incidentally as Blackmoore highlighted.

So either every person playing GKs at the tournament level are vastly inferior generals compared to the players who won those events with supposedly inferior armies..... or GKs are not as OP as people are claiming. Given the people whom we know have taken these armies to high level events (Blackmoore and Hulksmash, among several others) I think its pretty clear that its the latter. How could any rational person possibly argue otherwise?

In reality, the GKs are actually on the same level as BA, by every objective metric. They place high, but rarely win top general.

A libro with no powers or wargear and a LRC is 405 points. Adding in the dcas, powers and a warding stave to keep that lib alive pushes it to 640. That's a pretty large chunk of your army to devote to getting one charge off unhindered.
A smart opponent with melta will offer up a sacrificial unit with a melta gun and get the rest of his army in range to blow the dca off the board once they wipe the sacrificial unit. DCA are not that hard to play against. They only do one thing and they don't even do it that well. If they had grenades on the other hand, then they would be awesome.

Dok wrote:A libro with no powers or wargear and a LRC is 405 points. Adding in the dcas, powers and a warding stave to keep that lib alive pushes it to 640. That's a pretty large chunk of your army to devote to getting one charge off unhindered.
A smart opponent with melta will offer up a sacrificial unit with a melta gun and get the rest of his army in range to blow the dca off the board once they wipe the sacrificial unit. DCA are not that hard to play against. They only do one thing and they don't even do it that well. If they had grenades on the other hand, then they would be awesome.

This is the part where I reference where I said that crusader or other LR DCAs are used more in a counter assault and late game role, while conversely the raven DCAs are the attacking unit (and will often have a techmarine with grenades instead of the libby). A large portion of any death star unit is knowing when to keep it back and what situations to keep it away from.

iproxtaco wrote:

Okee. I understand that in reality, there's a difference, but in the context stating exactly how much brain you need to play Space Wolves effectively when the other side of the conversation understands what you mean, is semantics.

A pedant walks into a bar. Well it's a restaurant with a bar attached. Technically it's a brewpub since it has an onsite microbrewery.

ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was playing skyrim and I have a job. I'll get back to this in a bit I guess, though I won't be responding to you.

Aww. I'm hurt.

Will you respond to the huge list of tourneys I listed where GK didn't win? What about Hulk and Blackmoor's list?


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Phazael wrote:...DE have actuallly done better...
...snippy...
In reality, the GKs are actually on the same level as BA, by every objective metric. They place high, but rarely win top general.

DE ARE OP!!!! Phazael said it.

Seriously though, I agree with this assessment. They are good, same level as BA is a decent place to be, but not OP.


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Ozymandias wrote:A pedant walks into a bar. Well it's a restaurant with a bar attached. Technically it's a brewpub since it has an onsite microbrewery.

Nice.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Didn't Darkwyn win the last two Gts? I know he won Feast but was their one before that? I guess BT are broken.....

The funny part is that BT probably are broken at present, but very few people really play them regardless.