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Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.

YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).

I suppose your experience counts for something?

LOL Vassal - warhammer40k played on paper.

Yuber wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.

YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).

I suppose your experience counts for something?

LOL Vassal - warhammer40k played on paper.

Thanks for the compliment. I think my experience definitely counts for something :-) Much appreciated, though I ll still embarass you.

(1) He brought up his experience as a back up claim. I didn't
(2) If Warhammer played on Vassal is equivalent to playing them on paper, then Warhammer played on table is equivalent to playing on table cloth? Seriously, if you want to make silly comments like that, elaborate
(3) I suppose besides spewing random stuff, you are unable to contribute anything related to the topic? If no, what's your point of posting. Intention to troll?

Isseyfaran wrote:

Thanks for the compliment. I think my experience definitely counts for something :-) Much appreciated, though I ll still embarass you.

(1) He brought up his experience as a back up claim. I didn't
(2) If Warhammer played on Vassal is equivalent to playing them on paper, then Warhammer played on table is equivalent to playing on table cloth? Seriously, if you want to make silly comments like that, elaborate
(3) I suppose besides spewing random stuff, you are unable to contribute anything related to the topic? If no, what's your point of posting. Intention to troll?

You have done a pretty good job of being offended by every reasonable, polite and otherwise forum-appropriate comment on here by several reasonable and polite posters, and thereupon you have insulted, derided and acted outraged.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.

YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).

My experience counts for exactly as much as yours. . . ie, yes, nothing. The MATH, however, as I have shown in this very thread, DOES count for something; and it says that if you're trying to stop Deff Dreads under a KFF, you're going to have quite a hard time.

If I see you on Vassal sometime, I'll take you up on that.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore
If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point..

Which is why you need to spread out your points more efficiently across your entire army list so that your opponent DOES NOT have enough weapons to take out everything you have before you take him out.

20 extra points will allow me to increase my target saturation by. . . exactly nothing. No, wait, I could take a single Kannon in a Big Gunz unit. . . IF I had an empty Heavy Support slot. I'd much rather have the 2 extra attacks than 20 points sitting around doing nothing.

Now, if I were to take the extra CCWs off both my Dreads I'd have 40 points, so I could take a single Warbuggy. Which is so totally unimportant that, once again, I'd rather have the extra attacks. And I repeat; you don't have enough weapons to take out 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads, all under a KFF, in two turns. Even if you got to shoot all of them every turn, you don't. I don't care what you're playing.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46".

If you start 12" off the board, I m assuming you are talking about pitched battle, in which case no smart opponents will deploy directly opposite you. 46" don't get you into combat (more often than not) if opponent deploy across the corner.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.

So the key point is, the meltas don't even have to worry about both the Dread and the Wagon in the same turn. They can deal with the Wagons on turn 2, and the Dreads turn 3.

Not really. You castle up in the corner, I deploy in the middle of the board once I see what you're doing, trailing towards your side. On Turn 2, the wagons and the Deff Dreads are practically side-by-side still; the gap has only opened up by about 6", possibly, which is only a little more than the length of the battlewagon; so now the Dreads are alongside the rear bumpers, instead of the front bumpers. Then on turn 3 I move forward, disembark, Waagh, and charge; my infantry have moved about 50" from the board edge, give or take a couple, which is plenty to reach your castle. Your transports are blowing up from PK hits and your melta squads now have better things to worry about, like being pinned from falling out of an exploded tin can or being blocked into your parking lot (remember, you turtled in the opposite corner) by the multi-assaults.

If you send meltas forward to attack me while I'm still coming in, you get one shot and then the squad gets wiped. . . by the Deff Dreads, which are, remember, right there next to the Battlewagons. It isn't like I don't know that meltas can kill my vehicles; any squad you send forward to melta them dies immediately thereafter.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.

2 things wrong here.
(1) If your wagon can travel 26" over 2 turns, then meltas CAN reach you on turn 2.
(2) Range Weapon for e.g. S8 Missiles don't fire at AV14 wagons. If side armor is exposed, then same concept applies, deal with wagon - the faster threat, Dreads later. So both cases, there is minimal target saturation to speak of.

1. SOME meltas can. But, as I said, you CANNOT hit me with enough to kill 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads. And every squad you send will die on my following turn when whoever they did manage to dismount hits them together with the Deff Dreads, so if you feel like throwing away your army piecemeal like that, great.

2. BS4 missile launcher against a Deff Dread; 2/3 hit, 1/6 of hits glance, 1/3 of hits pen. 5/6 of glances score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, or Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 of the ones that DO accomplish something are ignored; 1/2 of pens score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 are ignored. That means that a missile launcher has about a. . . 6% chance to disable a Deff Dread. Yeah, go ahead, shoot 'em at me. Unless you can throw 16 missiles in two turns, you probably aren't going to disable a single Dread; you'd need 32 shots to be reasonably sure of disabling both of them. And, remember, 1/3 ofthe time those disabled Dreads will only be Immobilized, and grot riggers make it very likely that they'll repair that in a turn or two and start coming at you again. The BWs, by the way, will each require a little over 5 melta shots to stop on average.

So to stop the transports and Dreads, in two turns you need to fire 32 missiles AND 20+ melta shots at half range or less. At that point you've managed to kill or immobilize all the BWs and Deff Dreads, and now you only need to worry about Ghazghkull, 14 fully-diversified nobz, a PK-equipped Big Mek, and between 30-40 Shoota Boyz (depending on how many died when the transports blew up), all of which will be charging you over the next turn or two.

So, no, my experience doesn't mean anything. But the math does, and the math says that only the very most dedicated shooting armies have a snowballs chance in hell of stopping this kind of army from getting off a pretty impressive assault wave. The best you'll be able to do is pick two or three of the 6 targets you have to take out; that will weaken the initial charge, and then you have to try and lessen it further by blocking with empty transports, bubblewrapping, all the usual anti-assault stuff. But killing them all with shooting is really not viable.

thunderingjove wrote:You have done a pretty good job of being offended by every reasonable, polite and otherwise forum-appropriate comment on here by several reasonable and polite posters, and thereupon you have insulted, derided and acted outraged.

I supposed you have problem differentiating sarcasm and polite comments, SERIOUSLY? ;-)

BeRzErKeR wrote:My experience counts for exactly as much as yours. . . ie, yes, nothing.

Actually, I have attended more than 20 tournaments (big or small) since 5th Ed. What about yourself? Even so, I didn't even claim my experience counts for anything in our discussion. YOU DID.
So you ve just said your experience counts for nothing, but had just attempted to back up your own list with your own playing experience? LOL, counter intuitive?

BeRzErKeR wrote: The MATH, however, as I have shown in this very thread, DOES count for something; and it says that if you're trying to stop Deff Dreads under a KFF, you're going to have quite a hard time.

Except that your math is misleading, simply because there isn't only one melta, period.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If I see you on Vassal sometime, I'll take you up on that.

Don't need to make it so random, because chances are I ll NEVER see you. Just give me your nick, and a date and time. I ll post the BatReps soon after our games.

BeRzErKeR wrote:20 extra points will allow me to increase my target saturation by. . . exactly nothing. No, wait, I could take a single Kannon in a Big Gunz unit. . . IF I had an empty Heavy Support slot. I'd much rather have the 2 extra attacks than 20 points sitting around doing nothing.

LOL, realized how narrow your views are? Efficient point allocation is practised across the WHOLE army list. So more often than not, it not going to be JUST 20 points.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Now, if I were to take the extra CCWs off both my Dreads I'd have 40 points, so I could take a single Warbuggy. Which is so totally unimportant that, once again, I'd rather have the extra attacks. And I repeat; you don't have enough weapons to take out 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads, all under a KFF, in two turns. Even if you got to shoot all of them every turn, you don't. I don't care what you're playing.

Except that in 2k, SW (for e.g.) have 15 Missiles, 5-6 squads of GHs (each a melta) 4-6 MM Speeders, 3-4 Las/Plas Razorbacks.

10-12 Melta averages 7-8 hits, 3-4 unsaved by KFF, 2 pens (rounded down) on the AV14 goodness, and then +2 on the damage table (which means a roll of 2,3,4,5,6 ruins your day). That's not even factoring movement blocking by the speeders and rhino bodies

So before you spew anything, did you even do the math?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Not really. You castle up in the corner, I deploy in the middle of the board once I see what you're doing, trailing towards your side. On Turn 2, the wagons and the Deff Dreads are practically side-by-side still; the gap has only opened up by about 6", possibly, which is only a little more than the length of the battlewagon; so now the Dreads are alongside the rear bumpers, instead of the front bumpers. Then on turn 3 I move forward, disembark, Waagh, and charge; my infantry have moved about 50" from the board edge, give or take a couple, which is plenty to reach your castle. Your transports are blowing up from PK hits and your melta squads now have better things to worry about, like being pinned from falling out of an exploded tin can or being blocked into your parking lot (remember, you turtled in the opposite corner) by the multi-assaults.

IF you reacted to my deployment, it means I start first (barring you siezing). Between movement blocking by speeders and rhinos (split in 2 groups of 3s and 3s), i still have 2 full turns of shooting into your AV14 goodness. So whether you start first or 2nd, 2 full turns of shooting is guaranteed. Actually 3 turns, due to the wall of skimmers, and then rhino (to a lesser effect). Have fun with dodging skimmers.

And as the fifteen S8 missiles are close to useless against AV14 front, they can feel free to disturb your Dreads for 3 fulls shooting phase. Again, AV14 and AV12 don't provide for good target saturation.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you send meltas forward to attack me while I'm still coming in, you get one shot and then the squad gets wiped. . . by the Deff Dreads, which are, remember, right there next to the Battlewagons. It isn't like I don't know that meltas can kill my vehicles; any squad you send forward to melta them dies immediately thereafter.

This is exactly the way melta squads should be used against battlewagon. Hit my speeders on 6+? Feel free. Hit my rhinos on 4+? Be my guest. The squad don't even have to disembark to fire. EVEN if you miraculously succeed in doing that, A squad of 5 GHs is a good trade for a single battlewagon + 20 boys stranded nowhere.

BeRzErKeR wrote:1. SOME meltas can. But, as I said, you CANNOT hit me with enough to kill 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads. And every squad you send will die on my following turn when whoever they did manage to dismount hits them together with the Deff Dreads, so if you feel like throwing away your army piecemeal like that, great.

As above, I can. :-) If throwing away part of my army leaves your boys stranded in the middle of nowhere, it is a good trade nevertheless.

OH, by the way, my math haven't even factored in Missiles into the side of your wagon - considering it's pitched battle deployment. So if presented with the chance, the missiles can either shoot the wagon first and deal with the dreads later, or if not presented with the chance (i.e facing AV14 instead of AV12 side), unload everything into the Dread.

BeRzErKeR wrote:2. BS4 missile launcher against a Deff Dread; 2/3 hit, 1/6 of hits glance, 1/3 of hits pen. 5/6 of glances score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, or Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 of the ones that DO accomplish something are ignored; 1/2 of pens score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 are ignored. That means that a missile launcher has about a. . . 6% chance to disable a Deff Dread. Yeah, go ahead, shoot 'em at me. Unless you can throw 16 missiles in two turns, both of them will probably make it; you'd need 32 shots to be reasonably sure of disabling both of them. And, remember, 1/3 of those disabled Dreads will only be Immobilized, and grot riggers make it very likely that they'll repair that and start coming again. The BWs, by the way, will each require 8 melta shots to stop on average.

Math looks ok, except that I AM throwing more than 16 Missiles in 2 turns, LOL. Bear in mind again, you are talking about 2k, and my list is not an imaginary one. Those are lists seen in tournaments.
Your math of 8 melta to stop a single wagon is wrong though .

BeRzErKeR wrote:So, no, my experience doesn't mean anything. But the math does,

Yes, and math should mean something, except that your math are way off.

Seriously, go read Stelek vs Dash's BatRep. Dash had 3 wagons, trukks, and the game was 2k as well. It should help shape your distorted view.

And I m sorry that your thread on DeffDread has received zero replies so far

My math was off originally, yes; forgot to include that Battlewagons are open-topped. I edited in the correct value 15 minutes before your reply.

Sure, take that list. 15 ML; let's assume they get to shoot every turn. Let's assume the MM Speeders get 2 turns of shooting, too; the GH meltasquads will only get 1 each, the Razors get to shoot twice. The MLs I assume are in Long Fang squads.

If you go first, I deployed just across from you; I'll charge on my second turn of movement, unless you manage to VERY successfully block in my BWs. If you go second, I'll have deployed in the middle with further to go; you'll get two turns of shooting anyway, so no matter what I have to weather those two turns.

Turn 1; 15 missiles probably take down a Deff Dread. MM speeders flit forwards and snipe at the BWs, probably killing one. Las/plas razorbacks accomplish nothing. GHs in rhinos advance; they're smart enough to keep out of Deffrolla and charge range, I assume.

Everything moves forward; 7 Nobz, who were either dismounted or dumped out to let the KFF Mek/Ghazghkull and their boyz jump back into a wagon, charge a squad of speeders after the advancing BWs deffrolla them. The speeders had to be within 12" to get those MM shots, so they're within charge and Deffrolla range; the Nobz are moving forwards at 6" + 6" charge, too, so they're keeping up with the Battlewagons so far. Everything is in the midfield. The Nobz get 2 S5 hits, a S7 hit and a S9 hit (rounding all fractions down) which gives a couple damage rolls; that squad of speeders isn't shooting next turn. The Deffrollas, since there were 3 of them, on average hit once, dish out 3-4 S10 hits, and seriously mess up another squad. Could have as many as 4 or as few as 0 speeders dead, depending on the dice, but likely 1-2.

Turn 2; 15 missiles get to decide what they're shooting at; the Deff Dread, the Nobz, or something else that falls out of a BW from melta fire. They can destroy the Dread, lay down some serious hurt on the Nobz, or annihilate something else that falls out, pick one; or they can spread their fire and hurt two things, but not kill them. Gray Hunters roll forward and smoke another BW, block the Ork advance with a wall of Rhinos, maybe charge the Nobz? Las/plas backs shoot at something, probably don't accomplish anything unless it's the Nobz, in which case they'll deal a few wounds and possible kill one or two.

Battlewagons Deffrolla 3 Rhinos, almost certainly wrecking or exploding them. If a Rhino explodes, that Battlewagon gets to carry on and passes the blockade. Everyone dumps out, lights up the Grey Hunters with shoota fire and then charges them and whatever tanks and/or speeders happen to be present in melee. Lots of death on both sides, but the Ork army will win because they got the charge and have Ghazghkull, a full Nobz squad, and either most of another Nobz squad or a Deff Dread involved. If Ghazghkull happened to blow past the blockage, instead of charging the Gray Hunters he Waaghs! and assaults the Long Fang Razorbacks in the back, smashing one of them open and bringing out the squishies inside.

Turn 3; Nothing can be predicted by this point. Most infantry are now locked in combat, half the Ork vehicles and a good number of the Space Wolf ones are dead. There's one massive melee wrapping up a few inches on the Space Wolf side of the half-way mark, a few speeders floating around, and Ghazghkull may be menacing one of the Long Fang squads or he might be in the thick of the big, messy multi-combat. Orks are going to win, but depleted; after that, how much they have left will determine what they do. If there's plenty of stuff still hanging around, they might try to wipe out the Long Fangs and speeders and win via massacre; if not, probably split up and try to grab objectives with surviving Boyz and scoring Nobz while Ghazzy and whatever non-scoring Nobz are still alive attack the Long Fangs.

But basically, it's not an easy fight for either side. The Space Wolves don't have enough firepower to kill all the transports quickly enough, and they're definitely going to end up in melee with some very hard Ork units; the Orks are quite vulnerable once their rides are destroyed. Hard to predict, but hey, I'm nothing if not self-confident, so I'll say I win because Orkz iz da meanest an' da greenest.

EDIT: Thanks for your condolences. I guess no-one else is interested in Deff Dreads; I shall remain a lone voice in the wilderness until everyone else finally recognizes my genius and the ineffable superiority of the Deff Dread.

Wait, wait. Before I even comment on all those crap, i couldn't find in any part of your argument where you reinforce the fact that the Dread are a good saturation complement to the AV14 wagons. Even you have just agreed that the Missiles will not shoot at the AV14 front, but rather the Dread, since they will not do anything meaningful to the wagons more often than not.

So seriously, are you already changing your stance?

I am not even pointing the mistakes in your narration above yet (mostly relating to your movements, some math, etc). Just the above in bold first, because that was the main point of our contention. :-)

Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.

He is just some lost Stelek Fanboi. Leave him be.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.

Actually, I have a series of BatRep in the battle report section :-). You just haven't been reading enough.

Also, I have actually been around the forum and in the game longer than most people here, including you most probably. Not saying that that in any way counts for anything in my discussion here. I still back up my claims with explanations.

-Yawns dismissively at argumentative comments-

Credentials arent the issue. Anger management and good manners are.

Yuber wrote:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.

He is just some lost Stelek Fanboi. Leave him be.

LOL. Why is it that when people have nothing better to contribute, they resort to "Stelek's fanboi". Besides mentioning Stelek vs Dash BatRep, have I mentioned anything else about Stelek? Why couldn't I be Dash's fanboi? Also, at least Stelek got some placing in the last 2 Nova. On the contrary, what have you achieved? Apart from spewing random silly things here?

Even Berserker is more useful to this discussion than you, even if some of his assumptions might be wrong. So seriously, get a life (together with kaiservonhugal )
:-)

kaiservonhugal wrote:-Yawn-

Credentials arent the issue. Anger management and good manners are.

LOL, you are right actually. Except that posting single silly comments like "YAWN" aren't acts of good manners. So who are you to preach of good manners? See the irony?

Isseyfaran wrote:DID you just said 0.69% IS decent chance. I mean, LOL?

You seem to be unable to both understand math and the english language.
To spell it out for you, again:
0.69% IS WRONG
Also "LOL" is not a punctuation.

It was more like the problem of your interpretation, and the way you like to paint beautiful pictures by providing misleading probabilities. If you are BOOSTING up your probability simply by firing your WHOLE army into a single pallie squad, then by all means. KILL one Please. EVen then, your probabilities are still pathetic (maybe excellent in your eyes, since even a 0.69% IS good probability to you, LOL).

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?

When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Except that they don't. I have already shown that GHaz and Kans are sufficient in takin down Paladins, and whose lists are efficient against all other codexes. The point of making a TAC list is to strike that balance.

Stating a claim without backing it up is not the same as showing something.

LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.

I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.

I explained to the OP that to deal with Paladins with orks, Ghaz is the most "EFFICIENT" choice.
THen comes all your crappy counter argument that the more efficient way to deal with them IS to shoot them with orks (and even continue staying away from them - in another thread).

Note : My stand is Ghaz is the most efficient candidate for this job than any other units, NOT Ghaz is > Ghaz + loota + shoota + DeffRolla combined. I am not even debating on tactics OR ways to execute your moves (like loading ghaz into wagons, deploying lootas into cover, etc etc).

At the end of the day, you are telling us, do EVERYTHING of the above - tank shock, shoot them, throw ghaz into them.

As you are unable to understand any math more complex than division, I'll keep it simple:

Ghaghkull has 12 attacks during his Waagh! (7+5). He will hit Paladins on a 3+, that's two out of three. So if everything goes according to averages, you hit 8 paladins. He wounds five out of six times, equals 7. If none of them have swords or a warding stave, meaning 5++ only, you kill two out of three, for a total of five. Then the other five+character will kill Ghazghkull during the third round, before he strikes.

Apparently your opponent now concedes the game because you're so awesome, but us other players will probably have to continue handling an fully capable deathstar.

LOL, seriously, who doesn't know throwing everything of your army (including Ghaz himself) is > throwing Ghaz in alone in the equation, ALL else being equal? I mean, what's your point? LOL.
At the end of the day, Ghaz is the one who makes the most impact, point for point, damage for damage. Shootas, lootas, deffrollas are just chipping in because they have nothing better to do. If there is a PsyDread somewhere, the wagons and lootas are better off targetting him than the Paladins.

I already have proven that lootaz should not be shooting dreads. You might as well claim the sky to be green.
If have koptaz and rokkit buggies to do that.
Besides, do you ram 3/4 battlewagon into one dread? It takes quite some time to set that ram up, you know,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Isseyfaran wrote:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.

Actually, I have a series of BatRep in the battle report section :-). You just haven't been reading enough.

Also, I have actually been around the forum and in the game longer than most people here, including you most probably. Not saying that that in any way counts for anything in my discussion here. I still back up my claims with explanations.

Actually, with your attitude and language, I wouldn't want to read your battlereports, no matter how good your or they are.

Re: the new guys, as Ms. Garrison taught us, it's not enough to have an opinion, you have to be a d*ck about it too.

As to failure to grasp sarcasm, ect.: the Internet is a poor place to impart these tones, but basic hostility has no such barrier.

Jidmah wrote:unable to both understand math and the english language.
To spell it out for you, again:
0.69% IS WRONG
Also "LOL" is not a punctuation.

Now I understand what you are trying to say. Except that your comment of :-

Jidmah wrote:Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.

isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.

Jidmah wrote:Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?

Actually, you haven't. So please go ahead, draw your picture.

And to fast forward abit, 1/9 chance is good prob. to you. Seriously?

Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

Jidmah wrote:Stating a claim without backing it up is not the same as showing something.

All the math on Ghaz means nothing? And I am pretty sure it wasn't as pathetic as your 1/9 chance.
And a little bit more on this :-
So assuming you are right, 8 out of 9 times your shoota boys are not going to kill a single paladin outright, leave the paladins floating around with one wound, whom Ghaz is going to instant kill them ANYWAY. OF COURSE, the whole point of my argument is not that shoota boys should instead do NOTHING, just that Paladins might be the last in their list of targets in order of priority.

Jidmah wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.

I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.

REALLY?

Jidmah wrote:The only strategy against paladins (unless you can produce ridiculous amounts of tankshocks) a is to move away from them and shoot them dead. Holocaust, three strom bolters and two psycannons can cause nowhere near the damage you cause to yourself when charging those paladins.

WOW.

Jidmah wrote:As you are unable to understand any math more complex than division, I'll keep it simple:

Ghaghkull has 12 attacks during his Waagh! (7+5). He will hit Paladins on a 3+, that's two out of three. So if everything goes according to averages, you hit 8 paladins. He wounds five out of six times, equals 7. If none of them have swords or a warding stave, meaning 5++ only, you kill two out of three, for a total of five. Then the other five+character will kill Ghazghkull during the third round, before he strikes.

Apparently your opponent now concedes the game because you're so awesome, but us other players will probably have to continue handling an fully capable deathstar.

APPARENTLY, you missed my comment about sending reinforcement into the combat assisting Ghaz once his 2++ wears off (i.e. 3rd round if that's what your "3rd round" means). NOW, be good and go read them again before you attempt your math again.

And one moment you talk about 5 Paladins, the other moment you speak of 10 Paladins. Seriously, WOW. Doesn't matter though, since my math that Ghaz has an above average chance in winning combat for the duration of his waagh was based on 10 Paladins.

Jidmah wrote:I already have proven that lootaz should not be shooting dreads. You might as well claim the sky to be green.

And I have already explained why you should, given that the expected returnsyou gain by blowing up the dread FAR exceeds that of killing a single Palading outright.

You might as well repeat that 10 more times and we can go around in circles.

Jidmah wrote:Actually, with your attitude and language, I wouldn't want to read your battlereports, no matter how good your or they are.

Actually, did I even invite you to read my BatReps? LOL

This is pointless, everyone just hit the mod alert button.

It was an interesting thread before the new guy derailed it with his lack of respect and common decency.

I find it hard to believe you're from Singapore, the gamers I've met from there are usually very polite and well-mannered.

Warnings handed out to various members.

Please endeavour to stay polite when dealing with other forum members.

rabidaskal wrote:

It was an interesting thread before the new guy derailed it

Really? Presenting well thought out facts IS considered derailing the thread? Then can you explain how does comments like "Yawn" add anything useful to the thread?

If you think there is any part of my argument that isn't logical or is obviously wrong, you are free to pick it out :-).

Isseyfaran wrote:Wait, wait. Before I even comment on all those crap, i couldn't find in any part of your argument where you reinforce the fact that the Dread are a good saturation complement to the AV14 wagons. Even you have just agreed that the Missiles will not shoot at the AV14 front, but rather the Dread, since they will not do anything meaningful to the wagons more often than not.

So seriously, are you already changing your stance?

I am not even pointing the mistakes in your narration above yet (mostly relating to your movements, some math, etc). Just the above in bold first, because that was the main point of our contention. :-)

If the only two weapons under consideration are missiles and melta weapons, then in that highly limited and unrealistic depiction, yes, the Deff Dreads are a bad complement to Battlewagons from the perspective of target saturation.

However, this is a TAC list, and against lascannons, railguns, Eldar or DE Lance weapons, and ordnance, no, the Deff Dreads ARE a good saturation complement to Battlewagons. Furthermore, even WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.

isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.

Said the person using "LOL" every line.

For comparison, (So you can compare your number)
your claimed 1/144 (the probability you have claimed to be right)
would be 0.69%. (the result of that fraction)

I'm pretty sure, that's a proper English sentence. Maybe you are confused by the subject and object being numbers? I even went through the trouble of using multiple spell and grammar checks, as well as translators, and none had any trouble understanding it. Besides, you are not excused form acting like an idiot, no matter what country you are from.

Jidmah wrote:Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?

Actually, you haven't. So please go ahead, draw your picture.

And to fast forward abit, 1/9 chance is good prob. to you. Seriously?

You said that lootaz should shoot at psyflemen, who have less than 1/9 chance to destroy it. Aren't you a little inconsequential here? Not to mention that you failed to understand that the probability will increases once the paladins start taking wounds.

As you are trolling and not interested in actually understanding anything, I will refrain from drawing a picture.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

So tell me, oh master of all, what does target saturation mean. Please, don't forget the highly important role point values play in it.

All the math on Ghaz means nothing? And I am pretty sure it wasn't as pathetic as your 1/9 chance.
And a little bit more on this :-
So assuming you are right, 8 out of 9 times your shoota boys does not kill a single paladin outright, leave the paladins floating around with one wound, whom Ghaz is going to instant kill them ANYWAY. OF COURSE, the whole point of my argument is not that shoota boys should instead do NOTHING, just that Paladins might be the last in their list of targets in order of priority.

Right, Ghaz is going to EVAPORIZE the paladins when he touches them. All of them! And he is always going to kill the wounded ones!
How could I not see it.

Jidmah wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.

I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.

REALLY?

Jidmah wrote:The only strategy against paladins (unless you can produce ridiculous amounts of tankshocks) a is to move away from them and shoot them dead. Holocaust, three strom bolters and two psycannons can cause nowhere near the damage you cause to yourself when charging those paladins.

WOW.

Weren't you rambling on about how you don't have to explain every detail? In addition, do you field Ghaz in a Kan wall? A Green Tide? Biker list? KoS?
Oh right, you are going to toss "TAC" around again, like it means something.

APPARENTLY, you missed my comment about sending reinforcement into the combat assisting Ghaz once his 2++ wears off (i.e. 3rd round if that's what your "3rd round" means). NOW, be good and go read them again before you attempt your math again.

What reinforcements? Boyz? Nobz? After we already established that five paladins will make piecemeal out of them, even if accompanied by Ghazzy?

And one moment you talk about 5 Paladins, the other moment you speak of 10 Paladins. Seriously, WOW. Doesn't matter though, since my math that Ghaz has an above average chance in winning combat for the duration of his waagh was based on 10 Paladins.

Yeah, you know, some person said this thread was about 10 paladins, not five, so I continued talking about ten paladins. Oh wait, it was you!

And I have already explained why you should, given that the expected returnsyou gain by blowing up the dread FAR exceeds that of killing a single Palading outright.

That's only if you get a return, which is quite unlikely. Every single wound improves the probability of killing paladins with further non-instant death wounds, while any shot at the dread not leading to at least weapon destroyed do next to nothing.

You might as well repeat that 10 more times and we can go around in circles.

You keep bringing it up, not me. I have other tools than lootaz to handle psyflemen in my list, so I'm not losing anything by pointing those lootaz at the paladins. If you don't, you should ask yourself whether your army is really able to take on all commers.

Actually, did I even invite you to read my BatReps? LOL

LOL!

TL;DR:
You're a troll.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the only two weapons under consideration are missiles and melta weapons, then in that highly limited and unrealistic depiction, yes, the Deff Dreads are a bad complement to Battlewagons from the perspective of target saturation.

However, this is a TAC list, and against lascannons, railguns, Eldar or DE Lance weapons, and ordnance, no, the Deff Dreads ARE a good saturation complement to Battlewagons.

Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons etc DO NOT shoot at AV14 because they are simply inefficient in doing that. Meltas are there for this role. And by mentioning these 3, I think we ve covered 60-70% of all possible candidates for discussion.

DE/Eldar lance weapon - YES. But due to the sheer speed of their army, they can avoid your DeffDread for almost the whole of the game. And you know what make things worse? Your list of :- 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads don't even have long range shooting to take down those efficiently spammed AV10 skimmers. This means you will be chasing them down forever, while they shoot you from far. So actually, your list is a terrible match up against DE or even Eldar.

Ordnance? You use them as anti veh? Ok well, I don't

BeRzErKeR wrote:WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.

IF that IS target saturation, then hell, even boys can fit the criteria because Long Fangs can fire blast templates into them. LOL

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.

MFletch wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.

Young kid, we were talking about the phrase "Target saturation". So please enlighten everyone which part of my sentence "Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense"
requires "target saturation" to be changed to "saturation attack" so as to be grammatically correct.
In other words, how is

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense

any more correct than

Or could it be you don't understand "saturation attack" in its English sense

?

Nice try, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

MFletch wrote:Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.

I pictured you wearing a top hat and monocle while typing this, holding a fresh cup of tea one hand. Really disappointed you didn't go with 'old bean' at the end, though

OT- I have never seen paladins running in larger than 5-7, probably because they are massive points sink. I figure WAAAGH!!!ing ghazzy into them accompanied by some boyz/meganobs w/ cybork after gratuitous amounts of shooting should be enough to deal with them. If it isn't I still have the rest of my army to grab objectives while I throw wave after wave of gretchin at them to keep them bogged down

-cgmckenzie

MFletch wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.

Just so you actually get an actually useful answer.

Saturation:

[as modifier] to a very full extent, especially beyond the point regarded as necessary or desirable:

Target saturation simply means providing more targets of one type than the opponent can efficiently take down. To archive this you stack units which are most efficiently taken down by the same type of gun and must be taken down at the same time. Usually these are units with the same statline/AV, but things like nob bikers and battlewagons fill a similar role - both are weak against high strength shots, and both don't care much about low strength.

For some reason our LOLkopta here seems to be unter the impression that point values and equipment have anything to do with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:OT- I have never seen paladins running in larger than 5-7, probably because they are massive points sink. I figure WAAAGH!!!ing ghazzy into them accompanied by some boyz/meganobs w/ cybork after gratuitous amounts of shooting should be enough to deal with them. If it isn't I still have the rest of my army to grab objectives while I throw wave after wave of gretchin at them to keep them bogged down

-cgmckenzie

As I often play 2k point games, meeting 10 Paladins isn't that rare for me. Some people seem to like needing nothing but a single briefcase to bring their army, while I'm packed with bags.

Well, despite this feeding frenzy, I have only faced this list once. It was a nightmare to kill these things. If I recall, it was an 1850 point tournament and he had 2 units of 10 for 21 models total? (maybe 22).

Contrary to Issey, I ran a SAG at a tournament because I like to play different lists. I also had kannons and zap guns. Once I saw this footslogging list, I parked all of my trucks and proceeded to just shoot one unit to death. Granted, it took my entire army 2 or 3 turns of literally shooting everything I had to kill one unit. And even then, my opponent rolled an abnormally large amount of 1's.

And, I still think the SAG is better than most people give it creidt. It averages an S7 large template that negates termie saves. Yes, you may get some unpredictable results, but this is a game. Its meant to be fun.

And, if I had to tailor a list to fight paladins, I would fill 3 battlewagons with flash gitz along with a SAG and KFF. It may not be the best unit, but it would make for an interesting game.

Dodgywop wrote:I do pretty well when I shoot them.

Lootas do some good. Burnas in a wagon will help to.

I'm not a fan of lootas because I'm constantly hearing that to play without them is folly so I'm building my lists to exclude them. However in this scenario I would run a wagon with 15 burnas and a wagon of boys or nobs with a painboy. dismount the nobs or boys. light them up with the burnas (15 templates across the unit ought to get some of them.) and then charge with the boys so that they don't dismantle your wagon on their turn.

Jidmah wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.

Said the person using "LOL" every line.

I didnt know adding a "LOL" or emoticons at the end of a sentence makes the sentence any less correct grammatically. Did you learn this somewhere?

Jidmah wrote:For comparison, (So you can compare your number)
your claimed 1/144 (the probability you have claimed to be right)
would be 0.69%. (the result of that fraction)

I'm pretty sure, that's a proper English sentence. Maybe you are confused by the subject and object being numbers? I even went through the trouble of using multiple spell and grammar checks, as well as translators,

The correct version should be :
your claimed probability of 1/144 would be 0.69%. I have never seen any math textbook write the way you wrote. Maybe Germans learn it the special way?

Jidmah wrote:and none had any trouble understanding it.

You are assuming everyone bothers to read your crap (especially when no one has responded to that post of yours yet), which is a pretty hilarious assumption to me.

Jidmah wrote:Besides, you are not excused form acting like an idiot, no matter what country you are from.

Nice try with your personal attack. You have just succeeded in showing me how low you can be. Congrats . It just makes me despise you even more.

Jidmah wrote:You said that lootaz should shoot at psyflemen, who have less than 1/9 chance to destroy it. Aren't you a little inconsequential here? Not to mention that you failed to understand that the probability will increases once the paladins start taking wounds.

And did you miss (YET AGAIN - the third time) my point with regards to "EXPECTED RETURN"? Or were you merely acting dumb?

Jidmah wrote:As you are trolling and not interested in actually understanding anything, I will refrain from drawing a picture.

Trolling? You said if I don't understand, you will draw a picture to aid my understanding. YOU OFFERED it yourself, and now you are yet again changing your stance (just like how you change your stance regarding GHaz).

Jidmah wrote:So tell me, oh master of all, what does target saturation mean. Please, don't forget the highly important role point values play in it.

I illustrated briefly what target saturation is all about, while you dismissed it completely with a plain sentence of yours without backing yourself up with something else. Isn't the onus now on you to explain to us what you think it should otherwise be? Seriously, quit your jokes :-).

Jidmah wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Jidmah wrote:Weren't you rambling on about how you don't have to explain every detail? In addition, do you field Ghaz in a Kan wall? A Green Tide? Biker list? KoS?
Oh right, you are going to toss "TAC" around again, like it means something.

So I see. Then what does only strategy against paladins mean?
OH, i forgot, you aren't even particular about English, and don't even care if people understand you.

Jidmah wrote:What reinforcements? Boyz? Nobz? After we already established that five paladins will make piecemeal out of them, even if accompanied by Ghazzy?

A squad of 6-7 diversified nobs + Ghaz gets trumped by 5 Paladins? MAYBE I am missing something here. Show me your math.

Jidmah wrote:Yeah, you know, some person said this thread was about 10 paladins, not five, so I continued talking about ten paladins. Oh wait, it was you!

And the person who changed my 10 man Paladin squad to 5 to illustrate his shoota's "awesomeness" is...? No wait, it can't be you! It must have been the troll. And depending on which assumption is more favorable to his argument, he selects either of them, so that we are always arguing on a different basis.

Jidmah wrote: I have other tools than lootaz to handle psyflemen in my list, so I'm not losing anything by pointing those lootaz at the paladins. If you don't, you should ask yourself whether your army is really able to take on all commers.

And that is?

Jidmah wrote:TL;DR:
I am such a troll, assuming that people actually care if I read their BatRep

Edited that for you




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:Target saturation simply means providing more targets of one type than the opponent can efficiently take down. To archive this you stack units which are most efficiently taken down by the same type of gun and must be taken down at the same time. Usually these are units with the same statline/AV, but things like nob bikers and battlewagons fill a similar role - both are weak against high strength shots, and both don't care much about low strength.

For some reason our LOLkopta here seems to be unter the impression that point values and equipment have anything to do with it.

I bet when you learnt alphabets in school, you learnt A-L, without learning S-Z

Your concept of target saturation is largely correct, except that you don't grasp the full gist of it.

Point values do matter because target saturation means providing more targets (and this requires points) of the SIMILAR type, putting your opponent in a dilemma of what to shoot at first. SPending points inefficiently on a single body/target takes away from you the points and prevents you from "buying" more goodness of the same type.

Buying 40-50 points worth of upgrade on each battlewagon when these points could be added up to purchase one more AV14 goodness is an example of poor target saturation, especially when the upgrades do not increase the survivability of the wagons. That is not to say we should field a naked wagon, but instead purchase JUST ENOUGH upgrades for the wagon to do its job.

In our case of the Dread, 2 DeffDread with 2 DCCW + 2 Skorcha is more often than not going to achieve the same thing as a deffdread armed with 4DCCW. So most of the time, the additional 20 points spent for the upgrade is just not going to serve it's purpose at all,.

Isseyfaran wrote:
Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons etc DO NOT shoot at AV14 because they are simply inefficient in doing that. Meltas are there for this role. And by mentioning these 3, I think we ve covered 60-70% of all possible candidates for discussion.

DE/Eldar lance weapon - YES. But due to the sheer speed of their army, they can avoid your DeffDread for almost the whole of the game. And you know what make things worse? Your list of :- 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads don't even have long range shooting to take down those efficiently spammed AV10 skimmers. This means you will be chasing them down forever, while they shoot you from far. So actually, your list is a terrible match up against DE or even Eldar.

Ordnance? You use them as anti veh? Ok well, I don't

BeRzErKeR wrote:WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.

IF that IS target saturation, then hell, even boys can fit the criteria because Long Fangs can fire blast templates into them. LOL

I never mentioned autocannons; and I agree, missiles usually don't shoot at AV 14.

Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.

Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.

And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks. Whether something provides target saturation doesn't depend solely on what it is, it depends on a lot of factors; the tactical situation, the weapon, the unit firing and the potential targets. Sometimes my opponent might refuse to shoot at my Deff Dreads no matter what I do; sometimes they feel compelled to shoot EVERYTHING at a single Deff Dread, because they need it dead before the next turn. It's not at all a cut-and-dried situation, and you can't make a straightforward yes/no decision based on theoryhammer. I've found it to work well, and I can present some math that backs up my experience. That's what I've been saying.

I've read the one battlereport you've got done; you do seem to be a pretty good Tau player. As a dedicated Warboss, I confess that I hate those damn JSJ suits.

Isseyfaran wrote:The correct version should be :
your claimed probability of 1/144 would be 0.69%. I have never seen any math textbook write the way you wrote. Maybe Germans learn it the special way?

How should I know? I went to school in Detroit, Michigan.

Trolling? You said if I don't understand, you will draw a picture to aid my understanding.

Would you care if I did draw one? No. Did you fail to spot sarcasm? Yes.
If there were any hint of you accepting anything other than your own opinion, I might actually go through the trouble of making the picture, even though I wasn't serious about it in the first place.
However, as all you do is being unfriendly and belittling anyone with a different opinion, there really isn't much point in it.

I illustrated briefly what target saturation is all about, while you dismissed it completely with a plain sentence of yours without backing yourself up with something else. Isn't the onus now on you to explain to us what you think it should otherwise be? Seriously, quit your jokes :-).

Yeah, you said some stuff about points and equipment. If you add a battlewagon without upgrades but filled with nobz to a list of battlewagons, you increase your target saturation, even though you are missing at least a deff rolla and a big shoota to make that battlewagon efficient.
In the same way, deff dreads add target saturation to a kan wall. Both deff dreads and kanz are shot at by the exact same weapons, and your opponent can't possibly kill all the kanz before the deff dreads reach close combat. Whether you sunk way too much points in either unit has absolutely no bearing on the amount of target saturation, but only on the efficiency of your army.

When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

How do DCCW or shootas change what guns are going to shoot it? A dread with a burna is more efficient than a dread loades with CCW, we already agreed on that. However, this has no impact at all on when your opponent is going to shoot it with what weapons. No matter it's loadout, a deff dread stays a unit your opponent does not want to reach close combat, while never being more dangerous at range than kanz.

I'd also like to point out that you keep dodging the question of explaining what you think target saturation is, like a little child who got caught lying.