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sam0 wrote:Storm Boyz... 100% useless...

I totally disagree...

I always take a unit of 15 with a PK if I have the points, and find them to be very effective at one thing:

Get into enemy quickly, kill something (anything, seriously, an empty drop pod, rhino, that unit of scouts squatting on home objective, anything, something important and/or expensive is better, but I'll settle for anything) then watch as they get shot at by everything in range, but hey, at least that's 1 turn where my opponent isn't concentrating all his fire on the rest of the horde that's waltzing up the table...

For me, its the Penitent Engine. They are uncontrolled expensive lightly armored walkers that can be taken in sqaudrons, but they are heavy support. Gee thanks GW. To top it all off they are a big multi-part metal model which is a pain to put together.

Mandrakes. Gorgeous resculpt, awesome fluff, but take up a valuable Elite slot for two meagre S4 attacks and outflank. Overcosted AND underpowered. I might consider them for 10PPM (just to have a cheap outflanking distraction unit) but costed as they are they're not effective.

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

LOL you just dont know how to use them... I have 2 squads of them and they are straight money for their points. How bout the Canoness decked out 135pnts... really for that kind of points she should have a 2+ 3++, Not eternal warrior, Str 3 Tou 3.. yeah I'll take Uriah, Kyrnov or Celestine all day long.

I used pyrovores once. Good *god* what was I thinking? They really did hurt my *entire* army for just being there. There was literally nothing they did that something else couldn't do better. Old One Eye was also complete and utter rubbish, a slightly buffed regenerating screamer killer for over one and a half times the cost? Yeah I think I'll pass...

Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

It's a shame because I've always been a fan of giant robots and the fluff is really cool. :(

Ogryns

Servitors. They are cool models but, They are just uesless.
I wish i could field them but i cant.

Pyrovores are useless. the idea is neat! but they take up elite spots.

Nids have fantastic elites.

Also the Harpy is not good. t5 really shuts it down.

DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

captain collius wrote:DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Joey wrote:

captain collius wrote:DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Thank you i'm quoting that
Also yeah we don't really have much just deathwing, belial, landspeeder typhoons and okay dreads

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1

He only reduces attacks directed at him. He's his own unit and aspect powers don't go to Warlocks.

Kaptin Badrukk.

He's got a nice gun, but is he really worth as much as a BS 4, Night-shielded, Flickerfielded Ravager for firepower?

In close combat he is meh in the extreme.

StoneRaizer wrote:Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

Need something to drop down first turn and provide an epic distraction diverting attention away from your Long Fangs? There you go. And sticking a Multi-Melta on there has ridded me of the Manticore in the backfield on the first turn plenty of times. Yeah, it takes up an already crowded slot, but I still like it.

On the Pheonix Lords, again, I would disagree with saying that Jain Zar is apaaling. Granted, the lack of an Invulnerable save sucks, but shes the cheapest of the Pheonix Lords and what you get is a 2+ Armour save to soak up shots in wound allocation to stop them hitting your Banshees, 5(?) S7 I8 (IIRC) Power Weapon attacks on the charge, Fearless, Fleet and Eternal Warrior, and the Exarch powers free. Also, if you want to soften up that Terminator squad before going in, you've got a 3 shot assault weapon that's S5 and AP2 to throw from a BS7 model before going in. If she conferred Furious Charge to her unit she'd be great, but even without it I think that she is a decent little CC machine for 195pts. Not great, but not bad either.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game.

As for doing no damage, firstly, it's okay if they don't. In the actual time I faced off against this, two power blobs charged in and did nothing to the single unit of wraithguard, and then the next turn the striking scorpions charged in and began horribly massacring my guardsmen. I almost had the same thing happen again the next turn with some banshees except they rolled really terribly for difficult terrain. Even if wriathguard don't do a lot of damage, they make a hell of an anvil.

Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

As for the conscripts, I think the biggest problem actually is cost. I'm not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of infantry and spend the next 4 months painting them all for something of such questionable use, especially when, as mentioned, I could just make them regular infantry models and get more potential use out of them.

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game.

As for doing no damage, firstly, it's okay if they don't. In the actual time I faced off against this, two power blobs charged in and did nothing to the single unit of wraithguard, and then the next turn the striking scorpions charged in and began horribly massacring my guardsmen. I almost had the same thing happen again the next turn with some banshees except they rolled really terribly for difficult terrain. Even if wriathguard don't do a lot of damage, they make a hell of an anvil.

Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

As for the conscripts, I think the biggest problem actually is cost. I'm not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of infantry and spend the next 4 months painting them all for something of such questionable use, especially when, as mentioned, I could just make them regular infantry models and get more potential use out of them.

Pretty much this, the Eldar wraithlist is brutally hard to kill. Blobs that would crush MEQs more often than not do absolutely nothing to the wraithguard, things that typically make mincemeat out of MCs do jack diddly squat to Wraithlords, and the Wraithseer is a brutal rapemachine. I've seen freaking Trygons do atrociously little damage to the wraithguards and end up getting tarpitted for the rest of the game, accomplishing nothing. My termagaunts and tervis have also proved to do about as much to wraithguard lists as throwing rocks at them would have. And then the wraithguard's return volley blows the tervigon to hell and the termagaunts proceed to derp out and get slaughtered. Even the freaking swarmlord is only wounding those things on 4+s and his Tyrant guards need a 5+ to wound and still have to get past the armour saves, which effectively means that they will do absolutely nothing.

Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks,

Why did you commit to such a charge? The initiative was yours and you gave it away.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

When a footbound unit has only a 12" range, the opponent gets to decide what it shoots at, not the controller.

Also, Farseers are not a unit upgrade for Wraithguard.

All that being said, since this is a thread about the "Most Underwhelming Unit" in a codex, we shouldn't be talking about Wraithguard anyway. As poor as they are, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Rangers, and Support Batteries also appear in this codex.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Necron: Flayed ones, they're so bad they didn't even get mentioned yet. There warriors with more attack, that can infiltrate, but cant shoot. Or even affect morale(since there whole concept is melee troops that are horrifying, thats just sad) Preatorians get mentioned because they are CLOSE to useful, just a tweek to the stat line and they'd be good...

While both are pretty bad, I'd take Flayed Ones over Praetorians any day of the week. Against most troops, Flayed Ones will point for point kill more than either configuration of Praetorians, and they also will have the chance of living longer as well. However you equip them, Praetorians just don't have enough attacks to do much damage, and with just a 3+ armor save and low model count, they are almost as easy to wipe off the board as any marine unit of the same size.

DarknessEternal wrote:All that being said, since this is a thread about the "Most Underwhelming Unit" in a codex, we shouldn't be talking about Wraithguard anyway. As poor as they are, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Rangers, and Support Batteries also appear in this codex.

While rangers are overcosted, I would hardly put them in the same camp as swooping hawks or guardians. Give them the pathfinders upgrade and put them in basically any cover and you have a 2+ invulnerable save. Put a farseer with them, or nearby and that becomes re-rollable AND you could potentially guide them as well. I've had some pretty great experiences with rangers. Picking off large portions of terminator units, and causing pinning on a fair share of fire warriors.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1

He only reduces attacks directed at him. He's his own unit and aspect powers don't go to Warlocks.

He's an IC so he can join the Warlocks. It just say's he cannot join aspects other than Dire Avengers.

Sword Brethren:

Sword Brethren-cool models, but expensive when kitted out and 1 attack base unless you buy terminator honors for 10 points/model (Though you can pick and choose). They do have a special skill, but then again they occupy the same slot as dual CML tank hunting terminators and furious charge assault terminators

Vanguard Vets. They don't come with jump packs, they're expensive, and like many other assault troops, they have a higher rate of attrition. Seriously? There's a reason most Space Marines carry guns!

StoneRaizer wrote:Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

It's a shame because I've always been a fan of giant robots and the fluff is really cool. :(

Whats funny is the point cost is identical to C:SM dreads -- which are units that almost every C:SM player I know uses because their one of the better options in that codex.

Not sure what that speaks to -- the strength of the SW codex or the age of the C:SM codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

I would love a DA codex update. Them and BT have to be next on the list for marine dex's one would think.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
He's an IC so he can join the Warlocks. It just say's he cannot join aspects other than Dire Avengers.

He can join them sure, but they do not benefit from any of his abilities at they are not aspect warriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
While rangers are overcosted, I would hardly put them in the same camp as swooping hawks or guardians. Give them the pathfinders upgrade and put them in basically any cover and you have a 2+ invulnerable save. Put a farseer with them, or nearby and that becomes re-rollable AND you could potentially guide them as well

Ok, this ridiculosity has to stop.

The answer to every crummy Eldar unit cannot be "put a Farseer with them". You get 2 Farseers per army, at most. You know what's better? Putting those Farseers near the units that are good all the time. Making a good thing better is far more rewarding than making a terrible thing mediocre.

DarknessEternal wrote:Ok, this ridiculosity has to stop.

The answer to every crummy Eldar unit cannot be "put a Farseer with them". You get 2 Farseers per army, at most. You know what's better? Putting those Farseers near the units that are good all the time. Making a good thing better is far more rewarding than making a terrible thing mediocre.

I'm not saying that they need a Farseer to be good, I'm saying that a Farseer makes them better. Pathfinders are a legitimate unit by themselves. Put them in cover on or near an objective and they're very tough to dislodge through shooting. Their rifles being AP1 on a 5+ to hit and rending is also pretty brutal against TEQs. The only real downsides are the cost (which, as I said, is probably too high), and hitting them with melee, which can be said for lots of elder units.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Servitors. They are cool models but, They are just uesless.
I wish i could field them but i cant.

It is a shame, really. I'd love to include Techmarines and Servitors outside of my Thunderfire Cannon and Master of the Forge, but they just haven't had good rules since maybe 2nd edition.

Joey wrote:
To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

Death Company Tycho. Its always meh to take him.

BTNeophyte wrote:Sword Brethren:

Sword Brethren-cool models, but expensive when kitted out and 1 attack base unless you buy terminator honors for 10 points/model (Though you can pick and choose). They do have a special skill, but then again they occupy the same slot as dual CML tank hunting terminators and furious charge assault terminators

140 for 5 of them with a pair of Lightning Claws, a Power Weapon, furious charge and frag grenades is hardly "expensive". While Terminators are better (obviously, they cost more!), they also really need a Land Raider to function, whereas the Sword Brethren can just take a Rhino.

All in all I'd say there's no underwhelming unit in the Black Templars Codex, with the possibly exception being Techmarine Servitors, but they're not a unit of their own anyway.

Brother SRM wrote:

Joey wrote:
To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

Kinda reminds me of some of the newer GK players that hang around my shop. The old timers are mostly really cool about it; they've been playing Grey Knights since you COULD play Grey Knights, so it gives them more perspective. They'll readily admit that much of the new codex is a little beardy.

Then, there are the new guys. Many of them are the type who say GK is SUPPOSED to be better, because they're better in the fluff. Not realizing that if things were the way they are in the fluff, the game wouldn't be playable.

Edit: Actually, when I think about it, that inference didn't really make much sense... I'm sorry, guys.

Edit 2: Double fail, I wasn't in the thread I thought I was. This is honestly kinda embarrassing.

ACTUALLY OT, this time, Sentinels always seemed kinda meh to me.