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I have only experienced one hobby store owner who was wildly ignorant of games, and that was because he had to have the games there, he really didn't want them.

Otherwise, if someone opens a game store, he is usually versed in at least a couple games systems. Now if you are complaining that they aren't experts in every game system, you are wildly unrealistic. When was the last time you asked for car parts from a guy who knew everything about every car?

My contention is simple: FLGSs are rarely opened by people who don't care about games and gamers. However, between indifferent companies and incessant whiners, a well-intentioned store owner can quickly become bitter.

As carmachu said, it is a two way street. The store owner started the street by opening the store. It is up to you to patronize the store.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Guess you stopped reading after the first sentrnce, huh?

Well when you say their are only two factors that are the problem and dont address all the other ones, it becomes apparant one needs to inject number 3 and 4 and 5....

Who in their right mind would walk into their business with a smile on their face knowing that if their customers aren't destroying the business then the suppliers will? The most motivated salesperson in the world will start to be a people-hating drone soon enough if treated as such, believe me, I've been there.

Then either get out of the business or work to change those items. I wasnt always an anti-FLGS person. That got earned. By those very same FLGS folks keep trying to say support while I say F'em.

Oh I trust you.l Been there myself. Which is why I speak about bad stores. Alot.

Hmmmm so many answers to this question.... support local business, support someone who is ultimatwly going to house your butt for 6-12 hours a weekend, encouraging them to carry what you'd like to buy... list goes on and on.

Local businesses arent always worth supporting when their is no support in return. Encouragement doesnt always work when they want to be magic whores. and the list goes on and on.

Lemme go out on a limb, you're in your early to mid 20s, right? Evetything's got to be free or cheap because you don't have cash?

Oh look. Someone is not only wrong but monkey poo wrong.

No actaully. I'll turn 40 in a couple months. Been playing longer then some folks here have been alive. Have runa business for almost 20 of those years. Guess I might have shattered your poorly thought out logic and retoric right? Might know what I'm talking about?

Nothing has to be chear or free becaue I do or do not have cash. What has to happen is if FLGS want loyalty and support they have to return it. Thats been VERY lacking in my years of playing. Hell lacking is putting it mildly, betrayal comes to mind.

Magic whores, really?

I'm not saying support your FLGS just because it is there, I am saying support it if you use it.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

As carmachu said, it is a two way street. The store owner started the street by opening the store. It is up to you to patronize the store.

No. Thats NOT the start of the street. Just opening the store isnt the opening of the two way street relationship.


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heartserenade wrote:Magic whores, really?

Yes really. If you, as a store, are going to shove miniature playing times to wensday or thrusday from 6pm on to 9pm, and not allow it on saturday becuase of magic, dont expect nice terms from me.

Yes one store has done that.

I couldn't help but noticed the inherent hate towards the younger age group. I have to disagree. I think that if (say a 12 year old) can be mature and handle being at the FLGS by himself responsibly, than they can be there. Where I am at, a lot of the influx are the 12-17 range and honestly it isn't bad. Yes, there are a few here and there but the large majority are mature or the manager kindly tells them to tone it down. I kind of think that the few comments here about the younger ages are somewhat stereotypical...

riverhawks32 wrote:I couldn't help but noticed the inherent hate towards the younger age group. I have to disagree. I think that if (say a 12 year old) can be mature and handle being at the FLGS by himself responsibly, than they can be there. Where I am at, a lot of the influx are the 12-17 range and honestly it isn't bad. Yes, there are a few here and there but the large majority are mature or the manager kindly tells them to tone it down. I kind of think that the few comments here about the younger ages are somewhat stereotypical...

Almost as if a cranky old man made them, which is a very cranky old man thing to do.

[/stereotypes]

carmachu wrote:
Yes really. If you, as a store, are going to shove miniature playing times to wensday or thrusday from 6pm on to 9pm, and not allow it on saturday becuase of magic, dont expect nice terms from me.

Yes one store has done that.

Call me crazy, but I don't know, maybe it's because M:tG sells? They're a business. Catering to what sells and the crowd who buys it keep them staying afloat.


Also with the hatred for young ones. If you are 12 years old and you want to play and you don't know other people who play, how would you feel if cranky old men in the store thinks you're a bother and you shouldn't be there?

MtG also does the same thing that people are hating on GW for now.

They change it up all the time, for the sole purpose of making you buy new cards.

Once you have your GW models, then you are done buying from the store.

riverhawks32 wrote:I couldn't help but noticed the inherent hate towards the younger age group. I have to disagree. I think that if (say a 12 year old) can be mature and handle being at the FLGS by himself responsibly, than they can be there. Where I am at, a lot of the influx are the 12-17 range and honestly it isn't bad. Yes, there are a few here and there but the large majority are mature or the manager kindly tells them to tone it down. I kind of think that the few comments here about the younger ages are somewhat stereotypical...

Younger age group has a more propensitity for less then tolerable behavior. Granted thats a blanket statement, but its been known to happen. Howeevr, back in the day when I was playing in a FLGS we took a bunch under our wing to show them how to play and they took to it. Turned out to be good players in the long run, and well behaved when we were around.

12-17 age range is like all the other older ages- some I didnt mind playing, others my minis stayed in the bag,much less dont want to play. But that happens all around, and isnt depended solely on age.


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d-usa wrote:MtG also does the same thing that people are hating on GW for now.

They change it up all the time, for the sole purpose of making you buy new cards.

Once you have your GW models, then you are done buying from the store.

Yes, but your buying something called Collectable card games. Its inherent in the title and set and changes much more frequently as the sets come fast. I remember playing way back when. My tactical marines stay tactical marines no matter what. Cards and combos and banned cards changed rather lot, if you followed tournment guidelines(which most people did around me).

But no, one isnt done buying onces you have your GW models. I'm sure you bought many many more after your army hit 2k. Conversions, you needed glue, all sorts of stuff. New list ideas....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

heartserenade wrote:
Call me crazy, but I don't know, maybe it's because M:tG sells? They're a business. Catering to what sells and the crowd who buys it keep them staying afloat.

Then dont whine to me about supporting you. Again, that two way street thing. Last PP tournment I went to at a FLGS had mroe players then the magic one.

Also with the hatred for young ones. If you are 12 years old and you want to play and you don't know other people who play, how would you feel if cranky old men in the store thinks you're a bother and you shouldn't be there?

And if you were an adult if had an afternoon free from work and wife and kids and went in a store for a game and it looked like a daycare center of horrors with screaming unsupervised kids? It be 10 times worse.

carmachu wrote:

And if you were an adult if had an afternoon free from work and wife and kids and went in a store for a game and it looked like a daycare center of horrors with screaming unsupervised kids? It be 10 times worse.

Why would it be ten times worse? Aren't adults supposed to be more emotionally stable than kids? They look up to us, and how we treat them will shape who and what they are: they're the future gamers of their generation, and we're alienating them and treating them like crap that might make them get turned off from this hobby forever. How would it affect adults? Maybe just an afternoon of irritation but that's about it.

And don't support your FLGS if you don't want to, but don't call them names because they're making perfectly logical business decisions that helps them survive.

heartserenade wrote:[

Why would it be ten times worse? Aren't adults supposed to be more emotionally stable than kids? They look up to us, and how we treat them will shape who and what they are: they're the future gamers of their generation, and we're alienating them and treating them like crap that might make them get turned off from this hobby forever. How would it affect adults? Maybe just an afternoon of irritation but that's about it.

Is this a trick question? My time is much more valuable then a 12 year old. Its more limited in my free time. I didnt find some time away from the family to be someone else's babysitter. You, their parents and the FLGS isnt paying me to entertain kids. Its more then just an afternoon irritaion.

And don't support your FLGS if you don't want to, but don't call them names because they're making perfectly logical business decisions that helps them survive.

i call spades a spade. I've in my hobby time, gone out of my way to hole in the wall stores an hour away with no playing spaces because they know how to treat customers. On the other hand, stores that suck.....well I have no problem calling them out on that or names. It may or may not be logical, but then we get folks like you and the rest saying you should support FLGS, seemingly blindly, because their FLGS.

either you treat them like any business or you dont. There are car dealerships I would NEVER go to, while folks that have the same line I;d go (and have) gone out of my way to buy from. Same with supermarkets, bookstores, and a host of other places.

In the end, it seems to me that almost all of it depends on the customer. Period. Ive been to FLGS in many diffrent places. And it all depends where you're at. Friendly, calm, laid-back, and mature gamers help create a great friendly place to patronize. The owner doesnt have to worry about the stresses of douchey customers, doesnt have to worry about wether he will make ends meet, and is glad to let gamers stay as long as they'd like in my opinion. But when a store owner is stuck with a whiney, douchey, bunch of self-entitled, ass whipes as gamers in his store, no, it isnt friendly. Hes crabby, hardly likely to offer a damn thing, and probably has a ton of gak on his mind. The simplest way to make a FLGS more successful and appealing to customers, while taking a weight off your shoulders, is to kick out the gamers that down everybody, or just want to cause you problems. Ive literally watched one or two douchey gamers ruin a shop owners whole life. But it seems like a quick way to also make extra money when running an FLGS is to make sure to carry a broad selection of things, not just minis. Board games, comics, and books all seem to work well beside wargames. But, I suppose all of that is just my observations and opinions, feel free to tramp upon them as you will.

As some of you mentioned FLGS depends their survival to factors like:

-Location
-Terrain
-Space
-Owners and workers
-Merchandise
-Good customers

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:.And it all depends where you're at. Friendly, calm, laid-back, and mature gamers help create a great friendly place to patronize. But when a store owner is stuck with a whiney, douchey, bunch of self-entitled, ass whipes as gamers in his store, no, it isnt friendly. Hes crabby, hardly likely to offer a damn thing, and probably has a ton of gak on his mind.

Unless of course, the store owner is a whiney, douchey, money grubbing bastard that will turn on you once they've made a buck on you.. Then hey, you should just smile and buy from them right? Not willing to have any real hours and drop you like a hot stone after getting any money from you.

No its not just about the customers. You could be sweet as pie and a pile of money in your pocket and it wont make a difference. Its all about YOU as the customer, not them as a store and service sor merchandice provided.....

carmachu wrote:

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:.And it all depends where you're at. Friendly, calm, laid-back, and mature gamers help create a great friendly place to patronize. But when a store owner is stuck with a whiney, douchey, bunch of self-entitled, ass whipes as gamers in his store, no, it isnt friendly. Hes crabby, hardly likely to offer a damn thing, and probably has a ton of gak on his mind.

Unless of course, the store owner is a whiney, douchey, money grubbing bastard that will turn on you once they've made a buck on you.. Then hey, you should just smile and buy from them right? Not willing to have any real hours and drop you like a hot stone after getting any money from you.

No its not just about the customers. You could be sweet as pie and a pile of money in your pocket and it wont make a difference. Its all about YOU as the customer, not them as a store and service sor merchandice provided.....

I think it's been said over and over that a store has to provide good service. I think at this point everyone on Dakka understands you have some grudges about some store somewhere that did something or other to you, and your bitter about it.

I haven't seen anyone arguing that you should blindly support a store that gives bad service.

carmachu, I'm right with you when it comes to a bad FLGS - feth 'em. Sooner they go under the better. But a good store, now, that is something not only worthy of your support... you'll actually want to support it.

Since your opinion seems to be that ALL FLGS' are bad, then it follows that you've obviously never been to a good one. I reccomend you not make such blanket statements until you HAVE experienced a good store.


My FLGS has 6 dedicated mini gaming tables and a dozen tables for other games - including the CCG you despise. The staff is friendly, the owner a really cool guy. If you want something not carried, ask and they will get it for you. They have bought a VERY large selection of terrain for us to use, and they only ask that we treat it carefully and put it back when we are done. The players are cool too - not just the mini gamers, but the card gamers too. Why? Because we all realize that this is a good store, and NONE of us - wargamer or cardgamer, WFB or WM/H, MtG or YGO or Pokemon - want the store to be inconvienenced by petty squabbles among us. If conflicts do arise we try to deal with it ourselves, and only appeal to the owner for a ban when someone refuses to 'play nice with others.' It's only happened once so far, because the guy took a swing at another player.

In short, ours is a GOOD FLGS. And we treat it well in return because it has EARNED it.

Vulcan wrote:My FLGS has 6 dedicated mini gaming tables and a dozen tables for other games - including the CCG you despise.

This is the key here carmachu. If CCGs are popular, there's no reason the store shouldn't have available space for them to play. But you're quite right to be pissed off that they take over all of the gaming space on prime gaming nights. They shouldn't. If anything, the store should have normal sit down tables for CCGs, and entirely separate tables for tabletop gaming. They should also try to organise time for each group of players in prime gaming times. My FLGS does Friday Night Magic. That's when the bulk of the Magic is played. Sure, on Saturdays, you see people at the sit down tables playing magic, but there's far more people at the tabletop tables playing wargames.

If you've encountered nothing but bad stores, it's obvious you have an axe to grind. But not all stores are bad.

mikhaila wrote:

I think it's been said over and over that a store has to provide good service. I think at this point everyone on Dakka understands you have some grudges about some store somewhere that did something or other to you, and your bitter about it.

I haven't seen anyone arguing that you should blindly support a store that gives bad service.

I've seen one hell of alot of blame the customers and practically everything else but the stores themselves for poor customer treatment by FLGS on here. And yet in the same breath its been support FLGS.

Having said that., wish your store was the ones around here. My opinion would most likely be very different.

Bam, right there, give and take. They like the store, so they treat it with respect and good will, then the store does its best to return all the same feelings. And I do agree that there are a few horrible stores out there. But comparatively, Ive seen more stores with tired, worn down, and troubled owners than I have with owners that were just horrible people. I mean, in all honesty, Carmachu, your arguement basically revolves around how people can be total douches to one another, which none of us deny. But at the same time, with the way you've thrust your opinion around, generally been unkind to people on here, and acted as though the chip on your shoulder is worth its weight in gold, its easy to see that you could easily ruin a good day for a shop owner. Might I inquire as to how a shop owner betrays you? Did they kick you out for violating the shop rules? Catch you stealing and report it to the cops? Kick you out for having rude behavior? Or was it that they didnt give you the discounts you were clearly 'entitled' to? In the end, unless they just kicked out the whole gaming community from their store, I dont see how they could have betrayed you. And if they had done that, they would no longer be a FLGS to begin with. Soooooo......might I recommend a tad speck of councilling, a little bit of respect for the people who do run great stores, not to mention kids and all the other people around you, and just a little bit of humility? Its not all about you. Sure there are crappy shops out there, but if they are a crappy shop, then they arent a friendly local gaming store. Jesus.......I mean, normally I dont get worked up like this, but dude, after reading this, you are one SERIOUS peice of work.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:In the end, unless they just kicked out the whole gaming community from their store, I dont see how they could have betrayed you.

Going by his previous comments - by letting 'magic whores' steal all the gaming space during prime time. Though they're paying customers too (and in fact, bring much more income to the store than a wargamer). Still though, a good store will have wargaming area and CCG area, and not let them overlap unless there's an overabundance of one crowd and almost none of the other present.

carmachu wrote:
Is this a trick question? My time is much more valuable then a 12 year old. Its more limited in my free time. I didnt find some time away from the family to be someone else's babysitter. You, their parents and the FLGS isnt paying me to entertain kids. Its more then just an afternoon irritaion.

Not a trick question. When someone mistreats an adult the adult can brush it off. When someone mistreats a child that child can carry that his/her whole life. I don't know if it's just me but I view treating kids well, even kids you're not paid to "babysit" as you put it, is expected of a good adult.

i call spades a spade. I've in my hobby time, gone out of my way to hole in the wall stores an hour away with no playing spaces because they know how to treat customers. On the other hand, stores that suck.....well I have no problem calling them out on that or names. It may or may not be logical, but then we get folks like you and the rest saying you should support FLGS, seemingly blindly, because their FLGS.

And when did I say you should support your FLGS blindly, I wonder? Please don't put words in my mouth, it's in bad form.

What I was saying is don't judge them because they're *gasp* trying to make money. That's like calling a grocery store "cheese whores" because they have eleventy billion selections of cheese and only one or two brands of margarine. Or calling movie houses "blockbuster whores" because they show a lot of Hollywood blockbusters but none of your favorite independent films. As you have said, you treat FLGS like any other business, so wouldn't it make sense to also consider them from a business owner's point of view?

Exactly my point. "Sorry, Saturdays are for our Magic players" that is called scheduling. Maybe if you didn't walk in to a store with the attitude that the owner is out to screw you, he might try and be nice. When I have seen previously burned customers, I know it.

And again, this is a two way street. No shop owner ever opened a store of his own saying, " I hate this crap and I hope no one ever comes in here." They opened the store because they felt a need to share. Now if you happen to be butthurt that the owner doesn't cater to you specifically, look around. If there are 99% Magic players, guess where his financial attention is going to. Making an ass of yourself is only going to lessen his chances of opening a GW account or even purchasing from the myriad of re-distribitors.

Respect is earned, not given. You want your FLGS owner to address you by name? Be a good customer. Don't make him know it because you act like a jerk.

Erm, Friday Night is world-wide Magic Night, it is something that the owners of Magic set up so that no matter where you go, you can play Magic on a fixed day. This is further enforced by the prize support they hand out when you do this.

Back on topic, my current FLGS is one I frequent because of the staff. Their selection might be a bit limited, but as said, the staff more than makes up for it. Not to mention it is a well-lit store, with a first floor stocked with gaming tables, terrain and a dedicated painting area. They run FNM every week, a monthly 40k tourney, a monthly DnD encounter thingy and hold demo days about once every two weeks, all without asking a fee for most things, except FNM I think.

That said, I buy a lot of my stuff on-line, mostly Warmachine, which is either hard to get around here, or sold for insanely high prices. I do however purchase stuff at my FLGS, despite knowing that I can get it cheaper on-line. Not just paints, brushes and primers, but I also buy my RPG books there and this Friday I'll be getting 6th edition there, again something you can get cheaper elsewhere. But they can have my money because they've earned it.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I have heard a lot of whining about stores that charge for table time, but these stores aren't wasting all that floor space for you to lounge all day and contribute nothing.

Completely discounting previous posts such as :

Do they appreciate it when the veteran wargamers buy from their store? Absolutely, but the best service veteran war gamers in your store provide is painted army advertising. I can't tell you how many times I sold a starter set and two or three kits to an eager newbie because two fully painted armies belonging to store regulars were going at it on table 1.

It would be nice to read further than the title of a thread before writing a post. Eh, who am I kidding ? Good luck on your crusade against those entitled kids who need to get off your lawn.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:No shop owner ever opened a store of his own saying, " I hate this crap and I hope no one ever comes in here." They opened the store because they felt a need to share.

"Because they felt a need to share" ? Unless I'm mistaken, we are talking about a business, not a charity. They run a store to earn a living.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Respect is earned, not given. You want your FLGS owner to address you by name? Be a good customer.

I think you have it backward. As a customer and a person I show respect until it seems undeserved, but because I choose to. A store owner has to do it because if nothing else his living depends on his doing so. Respect is earned, indeed, and that goes for loyalty as well.

heartserenade wrote:

Not a trick question. When someone mistreats an adult the adult can brush it off. When someone mistreats a child that child can carry that his/her whole life. I don't know if it's just me but I view treating kids well, even kids you're not paid to "babysit" as you put it, is expected of a good adult.

So...if I dont want to play a 12 year old in my free time its mistreatment? Kids get viewed as they behave. There was some I would play, but there were many more that were annoying as Heck.. Having taken my kids to a variety of places, while some kids its great to interact with, there are many kids I've had to either interceed or sternly talk to because thier behaving badly or acting in manners that is harmful to themselves or my kids(Mostly because their parents arent paying attention to anything but their chattng or their Ipad or their newspaper).

I do NOT want to be doing that in my free time with miniatures I have spent hours working on. NOT in my job description. You asked why its 10 times worse? Thats why. My time as an adult in in much smaller quanity then some 12 year olds free time, and much more valuable.

What I was saying is don't judge them because they're *gasp* trying to make money. That's like calling a grocery store "cheese whores" because they have eleventy billion selections of cheese and only one or two brands of margarine. Or calling movie houses "blockbuster whores" because they show a lot of Hollywood blockbusters but none of your favorite independent films. As you have said, you treat FLGS like any other business, so wouldn't it make sense to also consider them from a business owner's point of view?

Businesses are free to make money till their hearts desire. But dont ask for support for something thats not providing anything of use and catering to something else.

Not my problem to consider a business owners POV. Having run a business for decade or two, I can tell you flat out no customer cares for you POV on business. What they care about is price, convience and what service you can provide for their budget. Your POV is meaningless to them.


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SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Exactly my point. "Sorry, Saturdays are for our Magic players" that is called scheduling. Maybe if you didn't walk in to a store with the attitude that the owner is out to screw you, he might try and be nice.

.

Respect is earned, not given. You want your FLGS owner to address you by name? Be a good customer. Don't make him know it because you act like a jerk.

carmachu wrote:
So...if I dont want to play a 12 year old in my free time its mistreatment?

Again, that I didn't say. Please stop putting words in my mouth. And stop using strawmen. What I did say is that children are much more susceptible to emotional damage to adults and much more easier to influence. That was my argument, I would appreciate it if you don't move it. If you're not going to reply to it without changing it, please do not bother.

I do NOT want to be doing that in my free time with miniatures I have spent hours working on. NOT in my job description. You asked why its 10 times worse? Thats why. My time as an adult in in much smaller quanity then some 12 year olds free time, and much more valuable.

I don't even want to touch the common fallacy "I'm an adult and I do bigger stuff, therefore my time is more valuable" until you stop misinterpreting my replies.

Businesses are free to make money till their hearts desire. But dont ask for support for something thats not providing anything of use and catering to something else.

Again, when did I say that you should support your FLGS blindly? (bold for emphasis) You seem to have a knack of interpreting things that the other person didn't say. It's quite curious, really.

Not my problem to consider a business owners POV. Having run a business for decade or two, I can tell you flat out no customer cares for you POV on business. What they care about is price, convience and what service you can provide for their budget. Your POV is meaningless to them.

So you as a customer know their point of view because you were a business owner yourself and the amount of empathy you can give is "feth that I'm a customer goddamit and you are horrible because you don't cater to my needs even if you will lose money if you cater more to my needs and less to Magic players (that you know, will pay the bills)."?

Nice to know.


Maybe this is just my opinion, but a rational person wouldn't curse a movie house and call it names like "Hollywood whores" because they want to actually be profitable. Sure, a rational person may not like it since he/she wants to watch independent films there, but he/she will understand. Me as a rational person wouldn't think my FLGS is horrible because they don't have a stock of Infinity and call them "WotC and GW whores".

But again, maybe that's just me.

carmachu wrote:My time as an adult in in much smaller quanity then some 12 year olds free time, and much more valuable..

I really cant take anything you say seriously after this statement.

It's time spent playing with little plastic soldiers for crying out loud.



If your time really was valuable, you'd be doing something else. Otherwise, its just time spent playing with toy soldiers.

As some of you mentioned playing with underage kids most of the times is not a good idea. The mayority of them like to steal things from others specially Yugioh cards. Because they are under age, its better for a store owner to let them be in the store with a responsible adult.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Exactly my point. "Sorry, Saturdays are for our Magic players" that is called scheduling.

There's a difference between scheduling(where you plan on having the majority of your space being used by it) and denying people the use of a table because your schedule says that "this is the game for the day". That's bad business. One of the FLGS' here has "schedules", but they're guidelines for what games are generally played that night so you can find a game, not some fascist determination that it's the ONLY game to be played that night. If people grab a table on Fantasy night and plays, say, Flames of War, the owner isn't going to tell them "Sorry, it's Fantasy night, you can't play that here." Yes, he'll tell them when FoW nights are so that, if they can make it, they can meet more players, but he won't make them quit.

Good FLGS make sure to have tables set aside for their schedule as well as extras for both overflow and walk-ins that don't know about their scheduled days.