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Vaktathi wrote:

Talamare wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

2. The internet lets the mathhammer masters pound out the most abusive lists for book A in edition X. The vast majority of the time these lists are NOT the intended use of the rules and instead abuse a gimmick of some sort to an extreme that was intended to be used in moderation. The rest are usually the result of GW penning a codex with the next edition in mind to give players of that codex as much time in the sweet spot as possible once the new edition comes out because they won't be getting a new codex for a while. .

Most "abuses" are discovered almost instantly tho

Just shows that the testers are bad

Either that or they're just not listened to. Having worked in QA, it happens more than one might think. (QA: hey, these reports don't work, and we're getting rounding errors DEV: yeah, we're not gonna fix it, it'd take too much work or we want to look like that).

<shudder>
Working as Intended.

Bane of my existence.

To be fair, I don't think GW has QA testers. They just have the devs, and a few "in the know" beta testers do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
DE weren't supposed to be good in assault. They were just abusing the rules? Incubi first came out in 3rd edition when they were 25points. In 5th they were lowered to 22 points but they lost their shooting attack. You were supposed to run or fleet into every assault so who needs to shoot right. Even in 5th they werent that good, they were only really useful against things with 2+ saves or very expensive 3+ saves with max toughness 4. Now they are basically completely useless with ap3. Now they charge in, pretty difficult with the assault range nerf. Now they arew going to charge in to an expensive squad and find either they all have 2+ saves or the sergent has a 2+ save and they bounce off. Clearly they use to be abused as they might do their job of heavy assault.

You're doing something beyond putting words in my mouth. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote, only I expect a bit more reading comprehension from people who don't even read things.

DE are very good in assault. The abuse was assaulting from a WWP so that their charge target did not get a chance to respond before getting sucked into melee. It's that whole "no chance to respond" that was fixed.

Wytches still tarpit like pros, and incubi still smash. Nothing changed there.

Arandmoor wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Talamare wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

2. The internet lets the mathhammer masters pound out the most abusive lists for book A in edition X. The vast majority of the time these lists are NOT the intended use of the rules and instead abuse a gimmick of some sort to an extreme that was intended to be used in moderation. The rest are usually the result of GW penning a codex with the next edition in mind to give players of that codex as much time in the sweet spot as possible once the new edition comes out because they won't be getting a new codex for a while. .

Most "abuses" are discovered almost instantly tho

Just shows that the testers are bad

Either that or they're just not listened to. Having worked in QA, it happens more than one might think. (QA: hey, these reports don't work, and we're getting rounding errors DEV: yeah, we're not gonna fix it, it'd take too much work or we want to look like that).

<shudder>
Working as Intended.

Bane of my existence.

To be fair, I don't think GW has QA testers. They just have the devs, and a few "in the know" beta testers do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
DE weren't supposed to be good in assault. They were just abusing the rules? Incubi first came out in 3rd edition when they were 25points. In 5th they were lowered to 22 points but they lost their shooting attack. You were supposed to run or fleet into every assault so who needs to shoot right. Even in 5th they werent that good, they were only really useful against things with 2+ saves or very expensive 3+ saves with max toughness 4. Now they are basically completely useless with ap3. Now they charge in, pretty difficult with the assault range nerf. Now they arew going to charge in to an expensive squad and find either they all have 2+ saves or the sergent has a 2+ save and they bounce off. Clearly they use to be abused as they might do their job of heavy assault.

You're doing something beyond putting words in my mouth. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote, only I expect a bit more reading comprehension from people who don't even read things.

DE are very good in assault. The abuse was assaulting from a WWP so that their charge target did not get a chance to respond before getting sucked into melee. It's that whole "no chance to respond" that was fixed.

Wytches still tarpit like pros, and incubi still smash. Nothing changed there.

Whiches are now more of a speed bump than a tarpit, though. Pretty much the only effective use for them is to CC assault termies and other stuff that doesn't shoot.

Incubi smash...if they are attacking scouts, tactical marines without flamers, or small groups of elites that have already been thinned and had key models picked off by shooting from other units. If the enemy has defensive grenades, is in cover, has more than 10 models in the unit or 2+ armor and/or 4+ invulnerable or better, they will whiff far more often than not.

As for your larger point, it might have worked if GW's codex release schedule was a fist faster than a glacier. "The new releases will fix everything because they work with the new paradigm!" is a grand claim, but the truth is one army gets updated per semester, leaving lots of useless models around for years, and sometimes the update doesn't help (*cough*Cruddace*cough*).

Had it been a company with a better record doing the same thing, I wouldn't sweat it. But it's the company that was happy to leave several armies for years without psychic counters, whose logic in some FAQs is mind-boggling, who opened a bit can of power worms with the Allies rule while shutting an entire army out of the party with no little fix to make them equal. But apparently that's good design, because they're totally getting a proper codex in 2015!

Let's look over at a diferent game. One that is also a bit confusing but that has people who apparently actually try.

Infinity's units often have a rule called Hacking, which allows you to immobilize or take over enemy robots, rmeotes and even heavy infantry. One faction, however, is lagging way behind the other in technology and has no hackers at all. Bummer, huh? What an imbalance. Except since their gear is low-tech and offline, the rules say they cannot be hacked either.

See what they did there?

Sephyr wrote:
Whiches are now more of a speed bump than a tarpit, though. Pretty much the only effective use for them is to CC assault termies and other stuff that doesn't shoot.

Incubi smash...if they are attacking scouts, tactical marines without flamers, or small groups of elites that have already been thinned and had key models picked off by shooting from other units. If the enemy has defensive grenades, is in cover, has more than 10 models in the unit or 2+ armor and/or 4+ invulnerable or better, they will whiff far more often than not.

As for your larger point, it might have worked if GW's codex release schedule was a fist faster than a glacier. "The new releases will fix everything because they work with the new paradigm!" is a grand claim, but the truth is one army gets updated per semester, leaving lots of useless models around for years, and sometimes the update doesn't help (*cough*Cruddace*cough*).

Had it been a company with a better record doing the same thing, I wouldn't sweat it. But it's the company that was happy to leave several armies for years without psychic counters, whose logic in some FAQs is mind-boggling, who opened a bit can of power worms with the Allies rule while shutting an entire army out of the party with no little fix to make them equal. But apparently that's good design, because they're totally getting a proper codex in 2015!

Let's look over at a diferent game. One that is also a bit confusing but that has people who apparently actually try.

Infinity's units often have a rule called Hacking, which allows you to immobilize or take over enemy robots, rmeotes and even heavy infantry. One faction, however, is lagging way behind the other in technology and has no hackers at all. Bummer, huh? What an imbalance. Except since their gear is low-tech and offline, the rules say they cannot be hacked either.

See what they did there?

Oh, so the wytchs' CC invuln saves are gone now? An Incubi don't get to strike with S4 AP3 CC attacks on initiative(5) when the rest of the army is S3 in CC? Oh, right. They can't punch termie armor therefore Incubi are useless. I see your logic.

You're wrong. You can't just brainlessly poop a squad of wytches onto the board with no regard to tactics and expect them to win you the game. That's why you're claiming that they are "little more than speed bumps". If you can get them into CC, in force, they are the best tarpit in the game because of their invuln saves, and ability to hide things like an aganizer on the sergeant.

But they can't look sideways at a termie and kill it. Oh no. Woe was me. /sarcasm

Just means you have to think before you assault.

Also, GW's codex release schedule has nothing to do with fixing holes in the main rules. All their crap schedule signifies is that they can't release new army books at any better than a snail's pace. Is it frustrating? Yeah. Still doesn't have anything to do with fixing problems with the base rules.

As for your "example", yeah no. It really makes no sense because there was no downside to the WWPs. Maybe if WWPs had some sort of statline, and if they got shot to death the DE player lost the game allowing DE to assault out of them might make sense.
But that's not how things work.

Your example is just bad. And you're referencing Warmachine/Hordes right?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Aww you didn't even let me get the snarky answer in.

Due to your Brotherhood of Psykers rule, you only take it against one model regardless per unit. due to the second part of the rule.

Yes I know that the Justicar takes it for each unit. When he dies my squad will then be LD8 instead of LD9. That still doesn't change the fact that this isn't something I can plan for. Its a random event, one my opponenet who I obviously have no control over can trigger himself when going through terrain.

"If the unit suffers perils or any other attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the character, or a random, non character model in the unit if there is none"

You have powerful psykers regardless, what with being able to take a power with each unit with hammerhand. I play thousand sons, so I feel this pain too, so don't think I am just ignoring your army because I can't feel the same thing.

That was never what this conversation was about. This was about the fact that this is an event that CAN'T BE PLANED FOR. That is all. I don't really care about the random rules. I'm fine with them. I am only pointing out that this kind of thing does NOT involve generalship skills. I can't not avoid this event if my opponent decides to wander through some terrain in his half of the board and just so happens to roll a 9 on the dice.

I'm not sure what argument you are trying to create here, because it has nothing to do with the fact that this particular random event is something that really can't be mitigated against. I'm not saying I dislike random rules, I'm not saying that I don't like 6th edition or anything. I'm just saying that this is an event that is random and cannot be planned for. Please explain how I plan for this? Do I ask my opponent kindly to not look at Archeotechnical terrain? Do I punch him in the face over the table if he tries to roll for it?

Arandmoor wrote:
No, the answer is for you to keep him from triggering the terrain which is, again, a choice.

You are really grasping at straws here. I have no control over what my opponent does. If he gets first turn, gets to that terrain piece and then uses it then what else can I do?

Telling me to stop him from doing it is NOT AN ANSWER. Like I said above, I don't mind the game having random events. I don't care. If this particular event happens, then it happens. However that doesn't change the fact that this is something outside my control and it is a random event. Telling me to table my opponent in the first turn so he can't use the terrain is just nonsense, especially since my rolls to stop him will also be random, providing I get the chance in the first place. Thats like telling me to invade the racing ground to stop a horse from winning the derby because it is beating the horse I betted on. It's not going to happen.

Random games can be fun, and I like to play some. I like Poker and I like Blackjack. I also like Roulette. I don't really play a lot of these games anymore since I like to keep my money but I have played them and I do think they are fun. All these games come down to odds or even luck. Luck is just something based on odds in the end. What I don't do though is confused where one event is based on odds where another event isn't based on odds. Charging is now based on odds, the terrain effects are now based on odds. So naturally luck will fall into it somewhere along the line. I'm fine with this because I know that the vast majority of games have luck involved in them somewhere down the line.

Wheres the Balanced option? I feel the new assault rules are great and make the game just as fare for non closed combat armies. Now being an Ork player I am a little peeved about loosing my bonus Int. from Furious Charge and having to deal with running into flame throwers. However Tanks became so much easier to get rid of (now that I only need 3 glances on average to wreck one) and with allies I can reduce the number of enemy units before making a charge on them. Not to mention snap shots require a 6 to even hit so I'm not to worried about them. So as I said I feel it has become more balanced.

Arandmoor wrote:

Oh, so the wytchs' CC invuln saves are gone now? An Incubi don't get to strike with S4 AP3 CC attacks on initiative(5) when the rest of the army is S3 in CC? Oh, right. They can't punch termie armor therefore Incubi are useless. I see your logic.

You're wrong. You can't just brainlessly poop a squad of wytches onto the board with no regard to tactics and expect them to win you the game. That's why you're claiming that they are "little more than speed bumps". If you can get them into CC, in force, they are the best tarpit in the game because of their invuln saves, and ability to hide things like an aganizer on the sergeant.

But they can't look sideways at a termie and kill it. Oh no. Woe was me. /sarcasm

Just means you have to think before you assault.

ooo so wyches have a 4++ on t3. Seems to me against most things 3+ on t4 is a lot better than that. Wyches use to get half their damage output from the power weapon and now the power weapon is not so much of an option. why invest 52 points in a t3 1w 6+ model who can be killed so easily or ignored with a 2+ save even easier. The problem is not really terminators, although now DE dont have anything capable of taking down a Teq squad in CC. The problem is teq unit sergents.

Charge a unit of grey hunters with incubi, incubi win. Charge a unit of grey hunters with 1 wolfguard with a 2+ save and the incubi get trashed. They could even be longfangs with a wolfguard. Same thing with Necrons. All it takes is one and no matter how many of DE most powerful assault troop you have they cannot win against even a shooty squad with 1 2+ save champion in it.

A bunch of codexes can put 1 2+ saves in every squad. Even if they cant, there are still ICs. DE dont have a way to take out ICs with 2+ saves in combat anymore. Therefore if we see a shooty gunline with 1 SM captian or libby in artificer armor we cannot assault. Incubi and archons backed up with wyches, lots of them cannot take down a dev squad, a tac squad and 1 sm captain. We cannot kill enough other models to make the captian break and we cannot kill the captain so evnetually he will kill everything we assaulted with.

Charge a unit of grey hunters with incubi, incubi win. Charge a unit of grey hunters with 1 wolfguard with a 2+ save and the incubi get trashed. They could even be longfangs with a wolfguard. Same thing with Necrons. All it takes is one and no matter how many of DE most powerful assault troop you have they cannot win against even a shooty squad with 1 2+ save champion in it.

Take an Incubi with Demiklaves = trashed wolfguard. You can literally do the same thing with your incubi troop leader! What's the issue here?

A bunch of codexes can put 1 2+ saves in every squad. Even if they cant, there are still ICs. DE dont have a way to take out ICs with 2+ saves in combat anymore.

Clasped Demiklaves = AP2

Also, shooting! Lots of AP2 darklances, snipe the model out, maybe even use hellions to yank those IC's out of combat with the never seen used snatchclaw.

And Harlequins with Rending.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Charge a unit of grey hunters with incubi, incubi win. Charge a unit of grey hunters with 1 wolfguard with a 2+ save and the incubi get trashed. They could even be longfangs with a wolfguard. Same thing with Necrons. All it takes is one and no matter how many of DE most powerful assault troop you have they cannot win against even a shooty squad with 1 2+ save champion in it.

Take an Incubi with Demiklaves = trashed wolfguard. You can literally do the same thing with your incubi troop leader! What's the issue here?

Yes you can take a Klavex for 70 points and kill a sergeant, but he still has no chance against an IC. You can tool out an archon all you like, but striking last at str4 isnt a great option for them.

Exergy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Charge a unit of grey hunters with incubi, incubi win. Charge a unit of grey hunters with 1 wolfguard with a 2+ save and the incubi get trashed. They could even be longfangs with a wolfguard. Same thing with Necrons. All it takes is one and no matter how many of DE most powerful assault troop you have they cannot win against even a shooty squad with 1 2+ save champion in it.

Take an Incubi with Demiklaves = trashed wolfguard. You can literally do the same thing with your incubi troop leader! What's the issue here?

Yes you can take a Klavex for 70 points and kill a sergeant, but he still has no chance against an IC. You can tool out an archon all you like, but striking last at str4 isnt a great option for them.

True enough at times though he can help with the issue. With Murderous Assault he grants the entire unit + Archon with preferred enemy (IC) due to the passdown rules that allow Preferred enemy to benefit the entire squad that the Klavex is within against the IC in question.

Of course if you really want to hurt IC's, bring Drahzon, with his own 2+ save, AP2, and his ability to break things in challenges, he will put down true hurt if you really need that IC hunting that badly. Alongside lilith, who still has a not power weapon that rips through armour and is a powerful challenger.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course if you really want to hurt IC's, bring Drahzon, with his own 2+ save, AP2, and his ability to break things in challenges, he will put down true hurt if you really need that IC hunting that badly. Alongside lilith, who still has a not power weapon that rips through armour and is a powerful challenger.

Sorry, different direction here, but as a newbie, I still can't say much about other armies... but... How are the other assaulty/hybrid armies doing? Our HQs have been reduced to only having Drahzar and Lelith that could harm 2+ units, even our Vect can't scratch a terminator with his scepter of lawls. Have other armies got their HQ weakened to the point that you're only bringing them on to complete the FoC and use their special rules?

Melee is stronger since you take wounds from the front and can deny your opponent the chance to even strike back. Furthermore challenges strengthen melee. My warboss and his attached 30 boys giving him 6 re-rolls in a man to man challenge is pretty baller.

Getting in melee is harder, don't confuse this with it being nerfed.

Baronyu wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course if you really want to hurt IC's, bring Drahzon, with his own 2+ save, AP2, and his ability to break things in challenges, he will put down true hurt if you really need that IC hunting that badly. Alongside lilith, who still has a not power weapon that rips through armour and is a powerful challenger.

Sorry, different direction here, but as a newbie, I still can't say much about other armies... but... How are the other assaulty/hybrid armies doing? Our HQs have been reduced to only having Drahzar and Lelith that could harm 2+ units, even our Vect can't scratch a terminator with his scepter of lawls. Have other armies got their HQ weakened to the point that you're only bringing them on to complete the FoC and use their special rules?

What other purpose does one bring for an HQ aside from their special rules and ability to fight?

Most other assault hybrid armies are doing okay generally, DE got hit the hardest hough.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course if you really want to hurt IC's, bring Drahzon, with his own 2+ save, AP2, and his ability to break things in challenges, he will put down true hurt if you really need that IC hunting that badly. Alongside lilith, who still has a not power weapon that rips through armour and is a powerful challenger.

Sorry, different direction here, but as a newbie, I still can't say much about other armies... but... How are the other assaulty/hybrid armies doing? Our HQs have been reduced to only having Drahzar and Lelith that could harm 2+ units, even our Vect can't scratch a terminator with his scepter of lawls. Have other armies got their HQ weakened to the point that you're only bringing them on to complete the FoC and use their special rules?

What other purpose does one bring for an HQ aside from their special rules and ability to fight?

Most other assault hybrid armies are doing okay generally, DE got hit the hardest hough.

I thought it was Eldar that was hit hardest

Especially with having no open top/assault vehicles and being dependent on vehicles to deliver their melee

Also Banshee losing their unique i10 to every jump unit

@ZebioLizard2 Ah, cool, thanks. I just wanted to know, that's all.

@Talamare Well, on the vehicle delivery part, DE are the same, we lost WWP, with the exception of hellions and beastmaster, we'd be delivering our melee the same way as Eldar: open top skimmers.

Just curious, how did Banshee lose their hammer of wrath?

I guess Eldar/Dark Eldar are battle brothers because they both got hit hard?

Baronyu wrote:@ZebioLizard2 Ah, cool, thanks. I just wanted to know, that's all.

@Talamare Well, on the vehicle delivery part, DE are the same, we lost WWP, with the exception of hellions and beastmaster, we'd be delivering our melee the same way as Eldar: open top skimmers.

Just curious, how did Banshee lose their hammer of wrath?

I guess Eldar/Dark Eldar are battle brothers because they both got hit hard?

Eldar doesnt have open top transports

Oh I misread, sorry. But what's wrong with banshee?

Baronyu wrote:Oh I misread, sorry. But what's wrong with banshee?

Power Weapon are AP3
Bikes and Jump troops can get i10
Overwatch picks them off (they are kinda of squishy)
Cannot assault out of vehicles, so they either need to run or wait a turn outside the tank and hope they dont get shot out
Movement/Run/Fleet changes, before normal infantry movement/assault was 12", fleet units were 12+1d6" // Now both are 6+2d6"

There are very powerful cc options in Eldar, Harlequins whom are fortuned are less likely to have it counted and far more likely to wipe out an opposing force. A seer council lead by Eldrad in the front (fortuned as always) will stop a very high number of incoming shots and charge in and clear out most things, pw's or no.

2nd test game with Footdar saw a seer council take the majority of an enemy's shooting phase only to watch it do very little since it was funneled through Eldrads 3++ rerollable. He got down to 1 wound and then still was able to lose a warlock or to with look outs. It was rather horrid. I dont see Footdar as weakened on any appreciable level by 6th. Banshees are bad, but harlequins are insane.

Gonna try out DE tonight with my 30 hellions and see how that goes out. With hammer of wrath's I'm expecting lots of angry opponent face.

lazarian wrote:There are very powerful cc options in Eldar, Harlequins whom are fortuned are less likely to have it counted and far more likely to wipe out an opposing force. A seer council lead by Eldrad in the front (fortuned as always) will stop a very high number of incoming shots and charge in and clear out most things, pw's or no.

2nd test game with Footdar saw a seer council take the majority of an enemy's shooting phase only to watch it do very little since it was funneled through Eldrads 3++ rerollable. He got down to 1 wound and then still was able to lose a warlock or to with look outs. It was rather horrid. I dont see Footdar as weakened on any appreciable level by 6th. Banshees are bad, but harlequins are insane.

Gonna try out DE tonight with my 30 hellions and see how that goes out. With hammer of wrath's I'm expecting lots of angry opponent face.

Tell me you're taking a stunclaw or two. And if yes, tell me how it turns out! (I've never seen one used...but they sound rather abusive if used correctly)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talamare wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Baronyu wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course if you really want to hurt IC's, bring Drahzon, with his own 2+ save, AP2, and his ability to break things in challenges, he will put down true hurt if you really need that IC hunting that badly. Alongside lilith, who still has a not power weapon that rips through armour and is a powerful challenger.

Sorry, different direction here, but as a newbie, I still can't say much about other armies... but... How are the other assaulty/hybrid armies doing? Our HQs have been reduced to only having Drahzar and Lelith that could harm 2+ units, even our Vect can't scratch a terminator with his scepter of lawls. Have other armies got their HQ weakened to the point that you're only bringing them on to complete the FoC and use their special rules?

What other purpose does one bring for an HQ aside from their special rules and ability to fight?

Most other assault hybrid armies are doing okay generally, DE got hit the hardest hough.

I thought it was Eldar that was hit hardest

Especially with having no open top/assault vehicles and being dependent on vehicles to deliver their melee

Also Banshee losing their unique i10 to every jump unit

Eldar weren't hit hardest. They're just the oldest melee-centric codex in circulation, so they're going to have the most rules issues and general incompatibilities.

They're in the same boat as Tau. They need a new codex. Orks are in less trouble IMO. Their rules just didn't take as big of a hit (sure the changes to fleet and furious charge hurt but fleet is still an exceptional ability when they do have it, and seriously...the point of initiative wasn't that big of a loss).

I'll put nids in 3rd...but the only reason they're on the list is because they got hit with the cruddace-bat which is kind of like the nerf bat, only larger and more belligerent.

juraigamer wrote:Melee is stronger since you take wounds from the front and can deny your opponent the chance to even strike back. Furthermore challenges strengthen melee. My warboss and his attached 30 boys giving him 6 re-rolls in a man to man challenge is pretty baller.

Getting in melee is harder, don't confuse this with it being nerfed.

You only get the re rolls if there are models in your squad doing nothing.

Weaker, but largely just because shooting is better, I would say. But I don't have the rulebook, so I'm not the best source.

I think MEQ's got a bit of a buff with 2D6 charge range now potentially giving them a fleet-sized threat range. But from my experience, the armies that already got fleet got a bit of the short end of the stick, with potential to get lousy charges when they needed a good charge.Rerolling charges is nice, but there is always that chance of just rolling awfully twice. In 5th ed, worse comes to worse, you had a 7" range at least.

Still, that's really my only large gripe with this edition, everything else isn't that bad, and assault is still viable and important in 40k games.

Arandmoor wrote:
Eldar weren't hit hardest. They're just the oldest melee-centric codex in circulation, so they're going to have the most rules issues and general incompatibilities.

So, Templars are a shooty army now, eh? Guess I didn't get that memo.