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Makutsu wrote:Whatever if you say that there is no order to things then there's no point in discussion.

Order obviously exist that is why you resolve things "in order".

How in the world did I ever say the wound is not saved?

It is saved but after the hexrifle's effect take place.

There is an order, but it has nothing to do with P.9 as "both players will have to do something at the same time" is not the case. Both players do not have to do something at the same time. The player with the model that was wounded has to do two different things.

Why are you removing a model if the wound was saved?

Hexrifle only triggers off of an unsaved wound, in this case we have a saved wound so we can not apply Hexrifle's effects as the is no longer an unsaved wound and the roll for the Hexrifle no longer matters if the wound is not an unsaved wound.

Why do they not have to do something at the same time?

Both ARE ALREADY triggered on an unsaved wound at the same time. <<<<<<-- Is this very hard to understand???????

And NO you do not remove a model because there is an unsaved wound, you remove a model because you failed the test.

The test happens at the same time as the FNP roll. So no matter what the outcome of FNP it would not affect the test to be rolled or not.

What you are saying is that FNP goes first and then the result is then used for Hexrifle.

The order that you are proposing is:
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Resolve FNP
4. Pass FNP
5. Saved Wound still is in play
6. Wound becomes Saved, Hexrifle not in effect anymore

Then everything would make sense, If you would only read my posts earlier and make a valid statement I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

I have adjusted my statement due to valid arguments yet you only dwell on the same argument over and over again.

Makutsu wrote:I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

Wouldn't this be the same thing as you affirming a certain order of events and continually insisting that the order you define and specify is the only order of events?

Even when there is nothing in the rules to suggest that the order of events you insist on is the one, the only order of events for this situation?

Myself and a few others have agreed that both feel no pain and being removed by the hexrifle's special rule trigger on an unsaved wound. There is no argument there.

The key difference is that if the feel no pain roll is successful, then, "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat is as having been saved."

Then there is no unsaved wound, and therefore nothing to trigger the hexrifle's special rule.

That's the paradox you conveniently ignore.

You cannot take a characteristic test for the hexrifle if the wound has been saved, and you cannot remove the model and then take a test to see if you negate the wound that already removed you..

The feel no pain rule says that it cannot be taken against wounds that cause instant death, but it doesn't say it cannot be taken against wounds caused by a hexrifle or that a model can be removed by a failed characteristic test but then save the wound after being removed. That's just ridiculous.

I am affirming my stance but adjusting my argument to what other statements against it. He was just repeating the exact same argument without providing a valid reason in my opinion

Now yours is a good argument.

I have never insisted on ONE order, I have argued for Hexrifle first, FNP first and going at the same time which is the one you suggested.
And the Exceptions on p.9 of the BRB pretty much explains a lot of the stuff.
At the end "Occasionaly, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit , or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need."

Assuming the "exceptional rule" is referring to the rule itself, it would mean that these events would be decided by the player of that turn.

Now the major thing here would be:
"...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat is as having been saved."

But where should the Saved wound be put? At the beginning of all of this?
Before any effects that are triggered?
OR
it goes after the effects are triggered.

If it is the latter then Hexrifle would have already taken place and hence already been removed if you failed the test.

I do agree that if is the the former then no Hexrifle's effect would not take place as we are going back to step 1 again.

This would assume that FNP always goes first if we were to lay it out in terms of order as if FNP fails THEN other effects would come into play.

It doesn't say so and we ignore does not mean it doesn't happen.
We as players know that this would be a waste of time but there would be nothing negating FNP's effect even if Hexrifle's test failed.

Makutsu wrote: Now yours is a good argument.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

Makutsu wrote: At the end "Occasionaly, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit , or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need."

Assuming the "exceptional rule" is referring to the rule itself, it would mean that these events would be decided by the player of that turn.

I don't think it's a stretch to understand that the "exceptional rule" referred to would be either the special rule contained in the main rulebook or the special rule in the particular armies codex. In the case of feel no pain or the hexrifle characteristic test, neither rule states which rule should be activated first, hence the discussion.

Makutsu wrote: But where should the Saved wound be put? At the beginning of all of this?

Actually, saved wounds aren't put anywhere, they are saved and ignored.

Makutsu wrote: This would assume that FNP always goes first if we were to lay it out in terms of order as if FNP fails THEN other effects would come into play.

It doesn't say so and we ignore does not mean it doesn't happen.
We as players know that this would be a waste of time but there would be nothing negating FNP's effect even if Hexrifle's test failed.

It's been said many times on this forum that where a rules paradox occurs, the more correct solution is the one that breaks the fewest rules.

So let's examine the rule interaction here on a successful hit with a hexrifle, a successful wound, and a failed save on a model.

If you roll for the hexrifle's special rule first because of the unsaved wound, and the test is failed, then the model is removed from play.
That model would not be permitted to make a feel no pain roll, as it has been removed from play so it cannot make or take any further actions.
But feel no pain says that after suffering an unsaved wound, the model can make a roll.
But if the model is removed from play before taking this action then this special rule has been broken.

Now if the feel no pain roll is taken first and passed, the wound is ignored, and the hexrifle rule is followed and no characteristic test is made.
But if the FNP roll is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound and then a characteristic test is taken as per the hexrifle rule.

Whether the FP roll is passed or failed, both rules have been acted upon and no rules have been broken.

Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Ok, then I agree with you if the correct solution the more correct solution is the one that breaks the fewest rules.

I still do not 100% agree with it but this makes sense in terms of your perspective.

But by RAW both is yet to be determined so it could be necessarily played both ways.

So guess we will have to wait for a FAQ.

time wizard wrote:If you roll for the hexrifle's special rule first because of the unsaved wound, and the test is failed, then the model is removed from play.
That model would not be permitted to make a feel no pain roll, as it has been removed from play so it cannot make or take any further actions.
But feel no pain says that after suffering an unsaved wound, the model can make a roll.
But if the model is removed from play before taking this action then this special rule has been broken.

Now if the feel no pain roll is taken first and passed, the wound is ignored, and the hexrifle rule is followed and no characteristic test is made.
But if the FNP roll is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound and then a characteristic test is taken as per the hexrifle rule.

Whether the FP roll is passed or failed, both rules have been acted upon and no rules have been broken.

Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Except that you are breaking the Exceptional Rule. The Hexrifle breaks the FnP rule, so now which is right? Both ways break 1 rule.

Makutsu wrote:Why do they not have to do something at the same time?

The rule on P.9 tells us that "both players will have to do something at the same time" in this case, both players do not have to do something at the same time, as the Hexrifle test, and the FNP roll are both done by one player, that is why they both do not have to do something at the same time.

Makutsu wrote:Both ARE ALREADY triggered on an unsaved wound at the same time. <<<<<<-- Is this very hard to understand???????

Not hard to understand at all. but the player rolls FNP first and passes then the wound is SAVED... " Is this very hard to understand???????"

Makutsu wrote:And NO you do not remove a model because there is an unsaved wound, you remove a model because you failed the test.

The test happens at the same time as the FNP roll. So no matter what the outcome of FNP it would not affect the test to be rolled or not.

That is a fallacy, as FNP reverts the wound to a saved wound, so Hexrifle is no longer able to be rolled for.

Makutsu wrote:What you are saying is that FNP goes first and then the result is then used for Hexrifle.

The order that you are proposing is:
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Resolve FNP
4. Pass FNP
5. Saved Wound still is in play
6. Wound becomes Saved, Hexrifle not in effect anymore

Then everything would make sense, If you would only read my posts earlier and make a valid statement I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

I have adjusted my statement due to valid arguments yet you only dwell on the same argument over and over again.

The order that I am proposing is correct according to RAW.

megatrons2nd wrote:

time wizard wrote:Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Except that you are breaking the Exceptional Rule. The Hexrifle breaks the FnP rule, so now which is right? Both ways break 1 rule.

No you are not, as the rule on P.9 refers to both players having to take an action.

"At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time." P.9

This IS NOT the case with taking FNP and the Hexrifle test, as only 1 player is taking action, not both, so P.9 does not apply.

Yes so you are saying that FNP goes first when there is no actual claim that it DOES go first go read time wizard's comment much better explained then just you liking FNP go first.

An additional rule being broken:

You are breaking the Hexrifle rule where it says "with no saves of any kind allowed" so it does not break FnP if the Hexrifle goes first as the Hexrifle specifically disallows any kind of save.


Now, if you say FnP is not a save than the Hexrifle would still be able to use it's ability if you pass FnP as it only treats the wound as saved but as it is not a save would still be unsaved.


Edit last part was based off of someone elses assumption disregard.

megatrons2nd wrote:An additional rule being broken:

You are breaking the Hexrifle rule where it says "with no saves of any kind allowed" so it does not break FnP if the Hexrifle goes first as the Hexrifle specifically disallows any kind of save.


Now, if you say FnP is not a save than the Hexrifle would still be able to use it's ability if you pass FnP as it only treats the wound as saved but as it is not a save would still be unsaved.


Edit last part was based off of someone elses assumption disregard.

No rules broken at all.

Feel No Pain Special rule in the BRB Page 35 wrote:...(this is not a saving throw)...

FNP is not a save, but we treat wounds from FNP as being saved, so we no longer have an unsaved wound, as we treat the wound as bieng saved.

It is not a saving throw, but it acts exactly like one. Slight but important difference.

It is all very clearly laid out in the FNP rules.

Makutsu wrote:Yes so you are saying that FNP goes first when there is no actual claim that it DOES go first go read time wizard's comment much better explained then just you liking FNP go first.

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

Nothing in the rules supports that though, its just a logical assumption we make.

Fragile wrote:

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

Nothing in the rules supports that though, its just a logical assumption we make.

The FNP rules on P. 35 support it.

Since FNP tells us that "the unsaved Wound is discounted - freat it as having been saved."

If we discount it then nothing can trigger off of it.

But something already has triggered off of it, and resolved.

Fragile wrote:But something already has triggered off of it, and resolved.

And we have to discount the event that triggered it, so any effects of that event are no longer valid.

And thats the assumption, but nothing in the rules state that.

Remember Fragile, FNP is in and of itself a Paradox. It always has been, always will be.

Fragile wrote:And thats the assumption, but nothing in the rules state that.

If you discount something, everything that happens because of it no longer happens.

It is not an assumption, just the application of the Logic Process.

The main problem here is that any specific rule cannot be taken in isolation.

By that I mean that we must look at the rules as a total package or they make no sense at all.
Take the process of hits and wounds for example.

Page 13 says if a model has a saving throw it gets to make it. If that save is failed we have an unsaved wound. We now allocate that unsaved wound to the closest model, and if it is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed as a casualty.

In isolation, this rule means that no model would ever get a feel no pain roll, necrons would never get reanimation protocols, etc. We have to look at all the rules that apply here.

When we look at feel no pain, we find that if a model suffers an unsaved wound, "...it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)."

This rule gives 2 important pieces of information. First, it is not a saving throw, so it works against weapons that ignore cover saves, weapons that ignore armor saves in fact, the only time it doesn't work is against wounds that cause instant death. And it is made after saving throws have been made, because it is not a saving throw, the saving throw has to be failed for a FNP roll to be made. You can't try to feel no pain if no pain has even been inflicted!

Now second, it says if the roll is passed, the wound is avoided, it is discounted. the wound is treated as being saved, so the model has not suffered an unsaved wound from this point. So anything that would subsequently require an unsaved wound would be discounted as well.

So for any weapon on the board, there is the roll to hit, if passed the roll to wound, if made a wound is inflicted. If a save is available it is now rolled for and if failed, an unsaved wound is suffered. If there is feel no pain it is now rolled for and if failed we have that unsaved wound. If any of these events do not occur, there is no wound.

Now we have a weapon with a special rule, like the hexrifle. That weapon inflicts wounds like any other weapon. it must hit, wound, not be negated by a save and have an unsaved wound occur in order for it's special rule, a characteristic test to occur. But in between the failed save and the characteristic test there is another special rule that if successful, results in no wound at all, no unsaved wound. That is the feel no pain special rule.

Any model with this special that suffers an unsaved wound can make this roll to avoid being wounded. If the model is removed by any other special rule, then the model cannot make its feel no pain roll, it will then have broken the feel no pain rule that says it can make this roll.

I understand the "chicken and the egg" argument here, but as I've said, by rolling FNP first, no rule is being broken. If FNP is passed, there is no unsaved wound and any condition that triggers on an unsaved wound fails to occur. If FNP is failed, then the model has indeed suffered an unsaved wound and any condition that triggers on an unsaved wound will now occur.

If anyone is looking for the feel no pain rule to specifically say that this roll is made before any other rule that triggers on an unsaved wound, or a FAQ that says the same, I believe you will be disappointed. You see, in this case, the rule doesn't have to say that it is invoked first, it must be to break no other rules.

Except you are STILL breaking the fact that both wounds go on an unsaved wound thus falling into the Exceptional Rules ,and the active player chooses the order. Not to mention you are breaking the rules buy calling it saved when it is only treat as saved, so other effects should still go, or if the Hexrifle goes first the fact that no saves of any kind are allowed, treat as saved still is a save as you guys keep saying so the Hexrifle disallows it in it's rules. You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

megatrons2nd wrote:You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

Is it a saving throw? No. The rule says this, "...(this is not a saving throw)."

Is it a save? You, "...treat it [the unsaved wound] as having been saved."

But on a successfule roll, "...the unsaved Wound is discounted..."

It doesn't really matter if you want to argue it as being a save, being treated as a save, not being a saving throw. The bottom line is "...the unsaved Wound is discounted..."

So now there is no unsaved wound.

megatrons2nd wrote:Except you are STILL breaking the fact that both wounds go on an unsaved wound thus falling into the Exceptional Rules ,and the active player chooses the order.

Stop saying that, it is simply not true. (The underlined)

P.9 (the Exceptional Rules) say if both players have actions then we follow the process of the active player choosing the order.

"At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time." P.9

1) Do both players have to do something at the same time? or 2) does one player have to do two things?

The answer is 2: Both players do not have actions here, only one player, the player rolling FNP and the test for the Hexrifle, has two actions, the opposing player does not have any actions, so the Exceptional Rules do not apply.

Both Hexrifle and FNP do go on an unsaved wound, but if FNP is made there is no longer an unsaved wound, we have to treat it as having been saved.
(Essentially we have to pretend we did not fail the saving throw, that may be a stretch for some, but I play D&D so pretending comes easy to me).

megatrons2nd wrote:Not to mention you are breaking the rules buy calling it saved when it is only treat as saved, so other effects should still go, or if the Hexrifle goes first the fact that no saves of any kind are allowed, treat as saved still is a save as you guys keep saying so the Hexrifle disallows it in it's rules. You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

Treating it as saved means it is as if we passed the armor save.

Passing an armor/cover/invulnerable save has the exact same effect as passing a FNP roll. Stop treating them differently, the wounds are treated as saved...

FNP is not a save, it says so in the rules for FNP. But FNP can create a saved wound, it says so in the rules for FNP.

Other effects do not go off, because there is no unsaved Wound after FNP is passed, even though there was an unsaved wound, we treat it as saved and no rules have to be broken.

DeathReaper wrote:

Passing an armor/cover/invulnerable save has the exact same effect as passing a FNP roll. Stop treating them differently, the wounds are treated as saved...

FNP is not a save, it says so in the rules for FNP. But FNP can create a saved wound, it says so in the rules for FNP.

Other effects do not go off, because there is no unsaved Wound after FNP is passed, even though there was an unsaved wound, we treat it as saved and no rules have to be broken.

Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save. As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save. As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

Feel No Pain says that it is not a saving throw, that if successful "...the unsaved wound is discounted...".

And FNP also says, "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflicy Instant Death."

Doesn't say you can't take them against wounds caused by Hexrifles.

megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save.

As Time Wizard has said, FNP specifically says it is not a Save. However it can produce the same effects as a saving throw. (FNP Is Special like that).

megatrons2nd wrote:As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

See, the definition of both players having to do something at the same time is Both players doing something, not one player making two rolls.

The Player with the Hexrifle, after he rolls to hit and wound, no longer has anything to do.

The opposing player now has to roll saves, and roll for FNP, and roll for any Hexrifle tests. The player with the hexrifle does not do anything.
(Telling your opponent about the rule is not "Doing something" in the context of the Exceptional rules, as it refers to an action like a roll or removal of casualties).

After reading this I found something on The Rules Lawyers dot com. It's pretty interesting. Take a read, see if you agree.

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/10/rulings-dark-eldar-hex-rifles-vs-feel-no-pain/#more-742

a) That was a decision made last edition - before FNPs wording changed
b) I disagreed with it then, I disagree with it now.

I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to? If it's not referring to FNP, which I'm not saying it does, what saves is it talking about (because obviously armor saves have already been taken)? Which saves are actually bypassed by the HexRifles' rules? In 5th? In 6th?

FNP now is not a save, but it includes FNP in 5th edition and invun saves and all saves.

I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Which I can almost guarantee won't cover it. Just like last edition, and possibly previous editions.