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Brother Weasel wrote:

d-usa wrote:Unless you guys want this thread to be shut down for being pretty far off-topic I would suggest that the topic stick to the topic of "Are the 40K files for AB being shut down". If you want to talk about "Is AB copyright infringement" or whatnot you can always start another thread.

Not every thread has to turn into white-knighting, GW-hating, I'm an internet expert in IP law mudslinging fest.

Is it even a question? it's new, it is being shut down... you don't have to read beyond that if you don't want to.

The OP asks about it being shut down.

In between all the off-topic post from internet-lawyers and IP experts there were posts about the development team admitting on Facebook that it is being shut down. After some more off-topic posts there are posts stating that the Facebook posts have been taken down. So there are still questions about the finality of this.

Of course the title of the thread is also "Potential" end, so it appears that it is not final.

And "stay on topic" is an actual Dakka rule.

"You don't have to read beyond that if you don't want to" is not.

This thread is simply brimming with neckbeards that have no idea what ArmyBuilder actually is, what it contains, how it works, who makes the datafiles, what those data files contains and who gets paid for what services.

I believe all along the maintainers have said "If GW asks us to stop then we'll stop" and, if I remembered that right, good on them for providing the files for so long previously and for sticking to their word now.

I would not be surprised if GW felt that the AB files cut into sales. As the price for their army books skyrocketed, I think it's reasonable to conclude the temptation to just get the "close enough" version from AB would go up. I will never understand why GW refused to deal with Lone Wolf, but GW does a lot of things that I won't ever understand.

Redbeard wrote:
Bullet three certainly goes towards Fair Use as well. AB data files use a few names and numbers, nothing close to the entire codex. I'm also thinking that bullet 4 goes in favour of Fair Use, as a data file is not a substitute for a codex, especially lately where the 'rules' for wargear items direct you to a page in the codex, rather than saying what the item does.

So, the sticking point is bullet two. It's clearly a fictional work.

Even still, looking at these, I'm not sure that this isn't a case of GW swinging their legal stick, hoping that the datafile maintainers will blink. It would be interesting if they found some pro-bono representation, like chapterhouse did, and mire GW in another legal fight.

The long and the short of it is it is a lot easier to claim fair/personal when you are the one reading the copyrighted publication you bought and then generate the AB files yourself then use them yourself.

Taking aspects, part or in whole of a copyrighted publication, putting it in an XML file then distributing that, not sure you can win a fair/personal use argument for that... but someone is certiantly able to try. It sounds like since the Ab file creators have been 'identified' by GW, even if the files are hosted elsewhere, if they continue to generate the files and upload them to locations, GW will take action against them personally which is a riskor fight they don't want to deal with.

'Community generated' makes it a lot harder to identify individuals in a 'community' for C&Ds.

Not saying it is right or wrong, just saying 'it is...' Rights are not secured until someone takes it to court and sees how far their rights extend or are limited.

d-usa wrote:[
The OP asks about it being shut down.

Just to be clear. Homer S is one of the datafile team members at AB40k.org. He did not post a question. He originally posted text announcing the end of the ab40k.org project. He has since edited his post here, the announcement on the ab40k.org site and FB. So we don't know what's happening at the moment. The one thing that he didn't change on the team site post was that ab40k.org will no longer host the files. I think they're working on another solution hence the "watch this space."

Arschbombe wrote:

d-usa wrote:[
The OP asks about it being shut down.

Just to be clear. Homer S is one of the datafile team members at AB40k.org. He did not post a question. He originally posted text announcing the end of the ab40k.org project. He has since edited his post here, the announcement on the ab40k.org site and FB. So we don't know what's happening at the moment. The one thing that he didn't change on the team site post was that ab40k.org will no longer host the files. I think they're working on another solution hence the "watch this space."

That's what I was trying to say. That this is still a continuing development and that posts about IP laws from internet lawyers don't accomplish anything other than to drag this thread off-topic.

Back on topic, please.

1. This isn't news. It happened a while ago.
2. The issue has long since been resolved and a new host site chosen.
3. Lone Wolf does not make the data files.
4. The only news regarding 40k and Army Builder recently is that the people who do make the data files are quitting.

Actually there is evidently much still in the air based on http://www.ab40k.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2642&p=11105 (dated today)

Reposting for work-blocked:

andrewm9 wrote:Is this site done with? Can your team no longer create and support the 40k data files? I'm seeing posts from Homer on other 40K sites saying that you will no longer be hosting the data files and others have suggested that the file will only be available for short from the auto updater. Is this true?

At this time we cannot answer this question. We are looking into all options at this time. Please stay tuned both here and the LoneWolf website for a notification once a final decision has been made.

Aerethan wrote:1. This isn't news. It happened a while ago.
2. The issue has long since been resolved and a new host site chosen.
3. Lone Wolf does not make the data files.
4. The only news regarding 40k and Army Builder recently is that the people who do make the data files are quitting.

It seems like possibly there were two separate actions taken.

The first may have been against Lone Wolf (which was the thread we had here a couple weeks ago I think), which I think resulted in the files being moved to a different site.

The second seems to be what is happening right now, which appears to be focused against the data-file developers themselves.

At least as far as I can tell.

That is speculation at best.

From what I know, UltraPrime hasn't been told to stop by GW for making WFB files.

And honestly, the information present in the AB files is not enough to play the game. You still need a rule book to make it function.

Either way, as long as the development tools are available, someone somewhere will make the files. GW can't stop that.

Until the ab40k.org team give an explanation for why they are stopping, we can't say that GW is the cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:

Aerethan wrote:1. This isn't news. It happened a while ago.
2. The issue has long since been resolved and a new host site chosen.
3. Lone Wolf does not make the data files.
4. The only news regarding 40k and Army Builder recently is that the people who do make the data files are quitting.

It seems like possibly there were two separate actions taken.

The first may have been against Lone Wolf (which was the thread we had here a couple weeks ago I think), which I think resulted in the files being moved to a different site.

The second seems to be what is happening right now, which appears to be focused against the data-file developers themselves.

At least as far as I can tell.

GW didn't do anything with lone wolf. They told datafilecentral.com to stop hosting the files.

Aerethan wrote:That is speculation at best.
From what I know, UltraPrime hasn't been told to stop by GW for making WFB files.
And honestly, the information present in the AB files is not enough to play the game. You still need a rule book to make it function.
Either way, as long as the development tools are available, someone somewhere will make the files. GW can't stop that.
Until the ab40k.org team give an explanation for why they are stopping, we can't say that GW is the cause.

d-usa wrote:It seems like possibly there were two separate actions taken.
The first may have been against Lone Wolf (which was the thread we had here a couple weeks ago I think), which I think resulted in the files being moved to a different site.
The second seems to be what is happening right now, which appears to be focused against the data-file developers themselves.
At least as far as I can tell.

Maybe the reason why Homer removed the original post was that there is more to the story, and perhaps he was told to abstain from commenting at this time...
But what do I know?

Fyrebyrd wrote:

Aerethan wrote:That is speculation at best.
From what I know, UltraPrime hasn't been told to stop by GW for making WFB files.
And honestly, the information present in the AB files is not enough to play the game. You still need a rule book to make it function.
Either way, as long as the development tools are available, someone somewhere will make the files. GW can't stop that.
Until the ab40k.org team give an explanation for why they are stopping, we can't say that GW is the cause.

d-usa wrote:It seems like possibly there were two separate actions taken.
The first may have been against Lone Wolf (which was the thread we had here a couple weeks ago I think), which I think resulted in the files being moved to a different site.
The second seems to be what is happening right now, which appears to be focused against the data-file developers themselves.
At least as far as I can tell.

Maybe the reason why Homer removed the original post was that there is more to the story, and perhaps he was told to abstain from commenting at this time...
But what do I know?

Underlined parts noted. If GW is seriously coming down on data file creators themselves, I'll likely sell off my armies and start some other game system.

Good. Army builder has always hurt the 40k playerbase in my opinion, rather than understand your codex, you simply click things until it adds up. Also it's not 100% correct.

If you can't build your own lists with just some paper and a pencil/pen, somethings wrong. A calculator does help.

This move does make me thing that GW wants to release their own list software, though if it's only on apple crap, they can count most of their business for it being missed potential.

Fyrebyrd wrote:
Maybe the reason why Homer removed the original post was that there is more to the story, and perhaps he was told to abstain from commenting at this time...
But what do I know?

LOL. Perhaps too subtle for some.

Shhhhh.

juraigamer wrote:Good. Army builder has always hurt the 40k playerbase in my opinion, rather than understand your codex, you simply click things until it adds up.

Hardly. Have you ever even used the program? There's this thing called validation...

Also it's not 100% correct.

No, it's not. But the team does a pretty damn good job. The more bugs people report the better the files get.

If you can't build your own lists with just some paper and a pencil/pen, somethings wrong. A calculator does help.

Oooh, snarky. Using a calculator is cheating. Manly gamers use an abacus.

juraigamer wrote:Good. Army builder has always hurt the 40k playerbase in my opinion, rather than understand your codex, you simply click things until it adds up. Also it's not 100% correct.

If you can't build your own lists with just some paper and a pencil/pen, somethings wrong. A calculator does help.

This move does make me thing that GW wants to release their own list software, though if it's only on apple crap, they can count most of their business for it being missed potential.

Do you know how many hand written lists I've seen that fail validation or math in general?

Nothing is perfect. The data files may have bugs or errors, but those are usually reported and fixed in patches.

The program isn't meant to replace anything besides a hand written list.

It also saves you tons of time looking up army specific rules, or unit stats.

How many people hand write lists that include all stats and special rules used in the list?

If GW released their own, it would be terrible, narrow, and expensive. AB isn't a warhammer only program. If you play other game systems, the software works for those as well.

Aerethan wrote:
If GW released their own, it would be terrible, narrow, and expensive.

they did, and it was...

A little of the history between GW and Lone Wolf may clarify things for a few posters and can he found in the last post HERE.

Reading that makes me think that GW might have finally decided to pursue licensing with AB, which would explain why AB40K.org would stop writing files. If that is the case, then it will likely be a good thing. It would mean prompt updates, and paid internal testing to weed out bugs or errors.

But again, I look at UltraPrime. If GW or AB told AB40k to stop, then they would have told him as well, which I don't believe they have.

In my view, GW lost the right to complain about this when they refused to license. They would have made money on it. Instead, they didn't, so AB let people make their own files which are free.
On two separate occasions GW was told by it's own staff that licensing was the best way to go. They'd make money with minimal effort. Instead, GW spent money to develop and release not one but two failed knock offs.

I do hope that GW has come around, as it would be a win for AB, GW, and those who use AB. If GW licensed, AB would sell more as people wouldn't be able to whine about errors, bugs, or slow updates. GW makes money, AB makes money, consumers get quality products. Why they ever turned that down is beyond me. GW started finally licensing video games, why not this? The tool is something that can be marketed at every single person who plays a GW game. Not everyone will use it, but everyone can see the market for it.

As an aside, do the creators of Battlescribe write all the files for the program or do they follow the AB format?

The forum posts the OP linked too were from late June. Since that time, AB 40k files have been updated for 6th edition, and things will likely carry on the way they have for the foreseeable future.

helium42 wrote:The forum posts the OP linked too were from late June. Since that time, AB 40k files have been updated for 6th edition, and things will likely carry on the way they have for the foreseeable future.

That link isn't the original text that was posted. It was edited twice.

Interestingly enough, the original announcement on AB40K.org has been edited on their site.

Here is what it said originally:

The latest file version is 1.02 will only be available for short time via the auto-update function within Army Builder. It will not be available for download from this site. It will not be available via email requests from any AB40K maintainer; do NOT bother to ask, it will not happen, you will not get it.

As you can imagine by the above statements, there will be no further updates to this project. There will be no further work done on the files, nor will there be any conversation here on this website on updating the files or help in understanding or helping to "fix" issues that remain in the files as of now, or anytime in the future. Indeed, I do not expect to see a website here much longer given this.

On behalf of both myself and the maintainers of the AB40K files, of the present and the past, I sincerely thank you for your support throughout the many years that this project has endured.

This file requires Army Builder 3.2d or higher, version 3.1 is no longer supported.

Please do not post any bug reports unless you are running the latest file and any applicable hotfixes. Also, the in program Warhammer 40K 5E FAQ (reached by Menubar under Help) is being regularly maintained and may answer some of your questions/problems.

Here is what it says now:

The latest file version is 1.02 will only be available via the auto-update function within Army Builder. It will not be available for download from this site.

This file requires Army Builder 3.2d or higher, version 3.1 is no longer supported.

Please do not post any bug reports unless you are running the latest file and any applicable hotfixes. Also, the in program Warhammer 40K 5E FAQ (reached by Menubar under Help) is being regularly maintained and may answer some of your questions/problems.

So something happened in the last 24 hours that changed dramatically.


That all said, if you need the file and can't find it, I can email it to you.

Aerethan wrote:So something happened in the last 24 hours that changed dramatically..

That could be "you hit the nail on the head" or "the final nail in the coffin"

Or the GW hammer came down.

If I sign an NDA will you tell me Fyrebyrd?

An updated announcement will be made in the near future. Due to certain aspects of availability, we are unable at this time to give a definitive statement one way or the other. We understand that many of you, our loyal user base, are very interested, and rest assured that once we can make an informed updated statement we will. We expect that to be in the next week, however at this point we cannot say anything more. Please stay tuned to the posted locations Homer pointed to as those will be where our future statement will first appear.

We are sincerely sorry for any confusion this may have caused in the past 24 hours.

This is really a fascinating episode, where one almost wants to ask "can't they both lose?"

Would it be possible for a third party to develope reference materials that incorporate protected materials? Almost certainly.

That, needless to say, is not what Lone Wolf did. Instead, rather then wrestle with that thorny legal problem, they chose to, in fairness brilliantly, outsource the liability (as well as the work, the QA, etc...) to volunteers.

Of course this all but aknowledges that if the product was sold as a whole it would be legally actionable, but, hey, if dozens of people want to incur liability, donate the majority. of the work and so on, who among us would say No?

The most amusing bit though are the posts by Rob at Lone Wolf explaining the letters to PP. Reading those it is. made hilariously, abundantly clear that their attitude towards fair use of trademarked materials extends to everyone's ip... except their own.

Ghaz wrote:That could be "you hit the nail on the head" or "the final nail in the coffin"

Shoulda used something more definitive, Only you would find humor here Ghaz!

Aerethan wrote:Or the GW hammer came down. If I sign an NDA will you tell me Fyrebyrd?

Sorry, I've hinted at too much already. It's not my call to tell anyone anything right now. Frustrating, I know.
For any further insight, jlong stated it best here and with a ninja-ed post up two^.

This was as predictable as it was inevitable. Sorry, all you guys who paid for it.

Also, before we continue this thread, I have to beg a question of Janthkin or any other interested moderator. As the discussion veered towards IP considerations, there was a public warning to keep it on-topic. If AB is being shut down for IP related reasons, are IP discussions about this product considered offtopic? Honest question, that comment may have been directed at a post that no longer is visible or something like that.