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This is a typical case where the question cant be answered without being faq'ed in my opinion. We had the exact same dispute come up last week when one of our blood angels players started using GK allies.

We came to the conclusion, that we house rule that kharne dies because of the double strength and not the force weapon wound. Although this may be wrong in some peoples eyes we will play it that way until theres an official faq saying otherwise.

Its not like this is a common situation but rather rare so even if we play that wrong thats not a big problem anyway.

Brotherhood Banners can ID Khârn as well, with Rad grenades and two casts of Hammerhand.

Well not really. Brotherhood banners are all in squads of models with force weapons. I believe the intention is to allow a Daemon Hammer to inflict ID due to double strength but that is most certainly not what the rules state.

Doesn't matter what squad they're in - a banner isn't a force weapon and after 2 HH would be Str6 vs T3.

Didn't the flesh hounds in the deamon codex get an FAQ that said that their collar of Khorn gave a 2++ save against force weapons. Including not activated force weapons.
I would assume the same on a Hammer, it's still a (nemesis) force weapon no matter if you activate the psycic power or not.

For those who claim that "the hammer itself doesnt cause the ID, its the strength of the attack that kills him".
If you attack with your bare fists and not with a force weapon, sure. But it is the hammer itself that dubbles the strength of the attack.

RAW: Kharn is immune to ID from Nemesist force Hammers.
RAI: Kharn die due to the dubble strength.

Poor wording from GW but still very clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

So if you had a rule "bob cannot suffer instant death from lascannons" then he would still get instant killed because he was hit by a ranged attack that had strength of double his toughness? doesn't really seem like it does it.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

I haven't read all 4 pages yet, but isn't this just like saying, "But the activated force weapon didn't cause the ID. The 'force' special rule did."

EDIT: Ok, I read em all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brotherhood Banners can ID Khârn as well, with Rad grenades and two casts of Hammerhand.

for models armed with psycannons, as they dont have force weapons

If they are using their force weapons, the can't ID him.

Another classic battle of RAW vs. RAI. I agree that RAW he cant be ID by the hammer, but I doubt my play group would ever play that way.

I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

yellowfever wrote:
I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

I simply do not agree with this kind of thoughy process here. Sometimes it is easy to see what GW was thinking (vehicles taking invulnerable saves) but this is almost too cut and dry to be a mistake.

Someone mentioned that fluff supports both RAI and RAW. This is true after all, kharn was trampled by a rhino, and lived. So saying that just shows a biased position regarding the subject.

Honestly, you can houserule it all day long. Nobody cares. This is dakkadakka. We care about whether or not we are playing by the rules. How else do you play the game?

Neronoxx wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

I simply do not agree with this kind of thoughy process here. Sometimes it is easy to see what GW was thinking (vehicles taking invulnerable saves) but this is almost too cut and dry to be a mistake.

Someone mentioned that fluff supports both RAI and RAW. This is true after all, kharn was trampled by a rhino, and lived. So saying that just shows a biased position regarding the subject.

Honestly, you can houserule it all day long. Nobody cares. This is dakkadakka. We care about whether or not we are playing by the rules. How else do you play the game?

agreed, I dont own kharn and am not likely to ever use him but I want to know how his rules work so I posed the question.

Obivously there is either poor wording in this rule which has resulted in Kharn being immune to instant death from force weapons inluding double toughness such as daemon hammers and double hammerhand with rad grenades from the other nemisis force weapons OR this is how the rule was intended to be played, and from some of the crap Matt Ward has wrote its not really that far out their. But never the less how about we all email the FAQ submission and find out for real in the next FAQ.

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com < Email FAQ questions here

I just sent this use it if you will or write your own just send one in to clear this up ...

Kharn's 'Blessing of the Blood God" special rules state that "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him."

Does this mean that if Kharn gets hit with a stength 8 Daemon Hammer, it cannot ID him because of Blessing Of The Blood God, whether it activates or not because it is still a force weapon that inflicts the wound and even though the wound is double his toughness this it is only because of the Daemon Hammer which is in turn a force weapon?

Also because Rad Grenades lower an enemies toughness. If he becomes toughness 3 and then gets hit by a strength 6 Nemisis Halberd, Sword or Stave as a result of a double hammerhand or hammerhand plus might of the titan, these force weapons cannot also inflict instant death on him?

I dont understand comments to the effect of "I wont play anyone who doesnt let my force hammer ID kharn" as if we are trying to bend the rules here to piss you off or power game. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and by ragequiting you are saying that you dont care about the other player's opinion at all. However, ironicly the loophole to be found is in the people saying 'my force weapon gets around your force weapon immunity because it has a higher strength than other force weapons.' You are trying to claim that the rule's immunity to instant death from force weapons is 'worked around' by using a force weapon that is 2x kharn's toughness. That is what reeks of power gaming to me.

As I mentioned before, this not only doesn't make sense in the scope of the rule, but also IN THE FLUFF. Khorne has been granting his followers bonuses against force weapons, activated or not, for several editions and codexes. In these cases, its because Khorne hates psykers, not because khorne is immune to psyker's powers.

If GW wanted, they could have said that force weapons can not activate their psychic power against kharn. Instead, they went the collar of khorne route, where simply using a force weapon in melee is enough to cause Khorne to protect his champions, either with a limited form of eternal warrior or with a 2++ save.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Obivously there is either poor wording in this rule which has resulted in Kharn being immune to instant death from force weapons inluding double toughness such as daemon hammers and double hammerhand with rad grenades from the other nemisis force weapons OR this is how the rule was intended to be played, and from some of the crap Matt Ward has wrote its not really that far out their. But never the less how about we all email the FAQ submission and find out for real in the next FAQ.

Wow? Biased much?
First, you accuse this rule of being poorly worded (hint, it's really not poorly worded, It's just simple,) you then associate the rule with the "crap Matt Ward" has written.

Kharn's rule is supported on all sides, from RAI, RAW and fluff. Now i don't care about the RAI or the fluff, buy i sure as hell won't ignore them when considering my answer. I simply understand that they have no bearing on the RAW.
That being said, it has been stated multiple times; this is airtight. There is no confusion here, only butt hurt,
and before you or anyone else accuse me of being biased or playing sides, i actually PLAY Grey Knights

Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

And just what are wounds caused by lordhat?
Oh yeah, that's right!
Wounds are caused by weapons!

But then, we have already discussed that in this thread.

Once again, this is pretty clear as far as everything goes. Is there any other LEGITIMATE questions on how exactly this works?

 Lordhat wrote:
Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

Ignore the ridiculousness that such a ruling would create, you are wrong. Under the Instant Death rules, it says "If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double it's Toughness..." (Emphasis Mine). So, we need to know of the strength of the Attack to determine if ID occurs. Where do we find the S value? On the weapon. What type of weapon is it? It's a Force Weapon. Sorry, no ID.

 Lordhat wrote:
Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

Which is hilarious, as you have ignored the rules presented in this thread - basic 6th edition rules (to remove any ambiguity) tells you that weapons inflict wounds, and that the attack is what has strength - caused by a FW

Would this apply to Nemisis Doomfist and such?

Again, same checklist:
Is the wound causing ID?
Is the wound from a Force Weapon?

If the answer to the questions is yes, then Kharn ignores the Instant Death, regardless of where it comes from (I don't know the rules on a Nemesis Doomfist). Even if a force weapon had the Instant Death special rule, and was twice his toughness, it would still not ID him.

It says in the grey knights codex that all Nemisis weapons are force weapons so i assume that would apply the doomfist of dreadnoughts and dreadknights?

Yes, because they are FW

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, because they are FW

well i guess kharne ignores ID from them as well

He does indeed, because in 6th edition it is most certainly the CCW that causes the wound

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

In this case it's not the force weapon itself insta gibbing Kharn due to being activated... It is the S => 2xT that insta gibs him. A power fist would do the same thing as well for example. There are many examples and that's just one of them. Other examples have been cited... Doesn't matter either if the daemon hammer is activated.

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

You can houserule it that way if you'd like. However if it's a wound from a Str 8 FW or NFW in this possible case, it cannot RAW inflict ID against Kharn.

You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

Wow. Just....wow.
I think its mighty presumptive to call this a rules abuse, seeing as how the only people abusing or making up rules are you people. And no one cares about real world views. They have no hold here. Neither does your understanding of rpg or mini games, because this is literally crystal clear. I honestly do not see the confusion here, and it is maddening to see you people post arguments that achieve literally nothing in relation to progressing this topic.
Not only do you not cite pages, you are not following or understanding the rule. He ignores instant death from force weapons. It does not say that the force weapon must be activated. "Force" weapons are also now their own type of weapon, and these weapons are ALWAYS force weapons. Are you trying to state that Kharns rule doesnt give him immunity to instant death from force weapons? Or are you trying to state that force weapons doubling a toughness don't cause instant death ever? Because either way, RAW says you are wrong.

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.