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Snappenthetwig wrote:
FNP can not be taken the force rule adds the ID ruling to the wound negating FNP. The wound its self becomes an ID hit therefore FNP saves can not be made.

Would that it be so simple.

Both effects happen on "taking an unsaved wound". Your earlier proposal about FNP happening after resolving the wound completely is incorrect. If you resolve the wound then you have taken the wound already and moved on in the wound pool. If that were the case, FNP would have no need to mention "on a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal". It would instead say "on a 4 or less, you have taken the wound as normal". Plus the rule states that you apply FNP as soon as the unsaved wound is suffered, just as with Force weapons.

So with the wording of feel no pain being in the absolute present tense, i.e. you roll before you determine if you have taken the actual wound or not, you should be able to see why you can take FNP on wounds from a force weapon BEFORE the psyker gets a chance to activate it. It's right there in the wording for FNP, and force weapons do not have the ID rule until after they pass their test.

 yakface wrote:

There is, of course, a third possibility as well:

Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.


With that, carry on...

I am with Yakface on this one, and I don't see it how it breaks ES.

Snappenthetwig wrote:
FNP can not be taken the force rule adds the ID ruling to the wound negating FNP. The wound its self becomes an ID hit therefore FNP saves can not be made.

the discussion here is because I want to fnp before you make the wound, therefore stopping you from ever using the force that adds ID.

We always do it like this:
hit.
Wound.
Do everything to stop it, including armour, cover, invulnerable and fnp throws.
Use the abilities that trigger on wounds (like force)

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non-ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.

here is why:

Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.

The model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.

Now 2 things happen:

1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.

2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.

Lets assume both rolls for ES and FNP are a 6.

If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.

If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.

One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.

Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).

Or use page 9 of the rules, which tell you exactly how to resolve the issue.

I advised our local gaming group to use page 9 to handle this situation until is FAQ'd. Apparently that was not a common sense solution though, and someone called GW to ask them their stance on the issue.

The individual reported back to the group that the gentleman from GW said it was their stance that you check for force weapons BEFORE you make FNP rolls. The group now uses this ruling.


I realize this means squat to most people (myself included) because until published via FAQ/errata game stores probably going to say "see page 9"... so it's quite irrelevant that some yahoo at GW answering their phones told a specific caller their "stance".

In any case, I'll go by the ruling they acquired via phone while playing with them, but if it's a tournament (not at their club) and money is on the line you'd bet I'm going to argue that I get FNP on my turn at least, until GW faq's it. (per pg #9)



Not that this means anything to anyone, but there ya go

Just food for thought:

What about a squad of Grey Knights attacking something with FNP and something without?

Halberds hit targets that do not have feel no pain, causing unsaved wounds that trigger the force rule and cause instant death.

Swords then proceed to hit the targets with feel no pain. Those swords are already inflicting instant death so would the FNP models get their roll?

 rabid1903 wrote:
Just food for thought:

What about a squad of Grey Knights attacking something with FNP and something without?

Halberds hit targets that do not have feel no pain, causing unsaved wounds that trigger the force rule and cause instant death.

Swords then proceed to hit the targets with feel no pain. Those swords are already inflicting instant death so would the FNP models get their roll?

That seems correct in this current debacle.

FUN

Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.

It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.

Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.

Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.

Lungpickle wrote:
FUN

Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.

It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.

Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.

Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.

exactly, while I dont think this is RAI, it is at least a correct view of RAW,

even in a the case where, despite the fact that the force rule says immediately (using the actually word immediately, not going by present tense assumptions) the rolls for FNP need to be made one at a time, because the first one that fails, no mater what side of this you are on, results in an unsaved wound, and gives the psyker a chance (one they may fail, or kill themselves with, so stop being so worried about it) to activate his weapon and ignore the rest of the FNP rolls.

no rules are broken with this interpretation, rules are most certainly broken if you take all FNP rolls and discount the psykers ID rule despite unsaved wounds being taken from failed FNP rolls

easysauce wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
FUN

Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.

It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.

Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.

Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.

exactly, while I dont think this is RAI, it is at least a correct view of RAW,

even in a the case where, despite the fact that the force rule says immediately (using the actually word immediately, not going by present tense assumptions) the rolls for FNP need to be made one at a time, because the first one that fails, no mater what side of this you are on, results in an unsaved wound, and gives the psyker a chance (one they may fail, or kill themselves with, so stop being so worried about it) to activate his weapon and ignore the rest of the FNP rolls.

no rules are broken with this interpretation, rules are most certainly broken if you take all FNP rolls and discount the psykers ID rule despite unsaved wounds being taken from failed FNP rolls

easysauce wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1) ES and Force weapons have the same timing.
Do we agree on premise 1?

Premise 2) FNP must go off before ES otherwise you break a rule.
Do we agree on Premise 2?

no, I agree on neither premise, ES and force do not have the same wording,
force says immediately, ES does not, totally different,

FNP going off after ES breaks no rules, because ES does not negate FNP

FNP going off before foces ID rule DOES break rules since ID negates FNP

This hurts my head. So you've changed your mind and agree that FNP comes before any "unsaved wound" effect?

rigeld2 wrote:


This hurts my head. So you've changed your mind and agree that FNP comes before any "unsaved wound" effect?

no, I am just saying that it is an acceptable interpretation when you ignore the fact that raw says immediately for force, and not for FNP, some people seem to think the actual presence of the word immediately in force is over ruled by the imaginary use of it in FNP, since both rules say "as soon as an unsaved wound is inflicted(for force) / suffered (for FNP)" but only the force rule actually says in the BRB that it is done immediately

i dont know why some people keep insisting a rule that does say immediately is less immediate then a rule that does not,

the same way a roll that is explicitly not a save, and does not treat successful rolls as saved or discarded until after the fact does not change the fact a model suffered an unsaved wound, or you wouldnt be making a FNP roll in the first place, people keep saying "i suffered an unsaved wound, so i get to make a FNP roll, but i actually have not suffered an unsaved wound and you dont get to activate force weapons" like the model is in some Schrodinger's cat state of both suffering an unsaved wound for FNP purposes, but not suffering an unsaved wound for force purposes

when two things happen on an unsaved wound, and one says it happens immediately, where as the other does not, literally speaking the specifically named immediate effect (force) takes place first, and that is the true RAW

When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.

Which one happens first?

No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.

We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.

rigeld2 wrote:
When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.

Which one happens first?

No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.

We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.

dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,

i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP

do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?



"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)"pg 35

both abilities trigger off of unsaved wounds, but as the rule book says, force is done immediately,

the only rule being broken, is the rule that FNP cannot be taken against wounds that cause ID, as the BRB and the FAQ explicitly state.

If you suffer an unsaved wound it triggers 2 events. FNP and Force activation.

Since the wound did not have the ID properties when it was unsaved FNP can be used.

Now apply both.

You activate the Force weapon and any unsaved wounds caused by that weapon this turn cause ID.

You also roll for FNP and if you succeed you treat the wound as being saved.

Now apply the results. FNP cause the wound to be treated as saved, thereby cancelling the valid wound required to cause ID.

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.

Which one happens first?

No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.

We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.

dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,

i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP

Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.

"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37

Right, so after the wound is inflicted.

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)"pg 35

Right, so when a wound is inflicted.

So you do one of them when something happens, and one immediately after something happens.

Saying something is a lie isn't the same as calling someone a liar. Look up common law on liable and defamation.

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.

Which one happens first?

No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.

We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.

dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,

i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP

Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.

"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37

Right, so after the wound is inflicted. <---- it does not say after, the tense on wounds is still present tense, just like the word when, the actual inlcusion of the word immediate here trumps the tie in tense in both rules

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)"pg 35

Right, so when a wound is inflicted.

So you do one of them when something happens, and one immediately after something happens.

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,

i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP

Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.

So no response - I'll take that as a retraction.

"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37

Right, so after the wound is inflicted. <---- it does not say after, the tense on wounds is still present tense, just like the word when, the actual inlcusion of the word immediate here trumps the tie in tense in both rules

It must be after - it cannot be before, and there's no "during" causing an unsaved wound. The present tense has no bearing on before, during, or after.

If you read the rules for force it sais "if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule." So say a unit sufferes two wounds from a force weapon, and fails both, they take a feel no pain and pass, they then take another feel no pain save and fail, the psyker takes a test and passes, ALL his attacks that turn now inflict instant death, even those that have already been saved (by feel no pain) thus meaning that a FNP save has been taken against a wound that inflicts instant death.

The wound did not have the ID property at the time FNP was used.

the whole argument for FNP getting around the BRB and FAQ stating you may not take FNP rolls against wounds that cause ID is dependent on the presumption that FNP determines whether a wound is unsaved or not, even though you can not use FNP with out first suffering an unsaved wound... twice in its description FNP refers to the wounds as discarded in literal fact, and simply says they are treated as saved, but only after they were initially unsaved.... it only discards an unsaved wound, it does not prevent the wound from being unsaved in the first place, or it would prevent its own power from going off.

so again, you cannot use FNP to circumvent ID,

to look at if from the other side, it would appear that I think it is ok for ID to circumvent FNP, which both the rule book, and the FAQ both say is 100% correct

the FAQ is very clear on this, using FNP to circumvent ID is breaking the rule as written,

GW knows there are only two sources of ID in the game, 2x toughness and force weapons, and it said in the rule book FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the ID rule, AND in the FAQ that FNP cannot be taken against weapons that inflict ID

so two sources in the game for ID, and both say no FNP rolls against them, yet people want to make FNP rolls against them anyways...

Does it matter that the ID effect wasn't known? I have read many peoples arguements about breaking rules. Heres a scenario. A wound is inflicted by a force weapon / bonesword / any weapon that requires a test to determine if ID is a factor. Just for kicks lets say you take your FNP roll first. and of course you fail it "never works when you really need it after all" we now take our appropriate test to see if we inflict ID. It passes! At this point a rule has been broken. Because a FNP roll has been taken against a wound that inflicts ID. Doesnt matter that it didnt do anything or that you died. The rule was stlll broken. Tests to determine if ID is a factor need to be taken before FNP is to determine if FNP even applies to prevent this


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easy sauce there are plenty of sources of ID in the game. Force and double out dont even scratch the surface,

It does have the instant death rule. It just happens to have a trigger. As the FAQ clearly states that you can not use FNP against a weapon with the Instant death special rule, you can never use FNP against it, even if it is not triggered.


The Special rules section allows for multiple special rules to affect a single model, as in they stack, meaning both rules can be true. You lose your armor, and are not removed as a casualty. You are removed from play, but the wound was not fatal. FNP seems to be an issue because everyone wants to ignore the effects of multiple special rules on a single model/unit. Stated on pg32, under the "A compendium of Special Rules" section third paragraph.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It does have the instant death rule. It just happens to have a trigger. As the FAQ clearly states that you can not use FNP against a weapon with the Instant death special rule, you can never use FNP against it, even if it is not triggered.

This is wrong. Force =/= ID. Force can inflict ID but not all the time. If force=ID then you can just boost your combat stats with psychic powers and use force weapons to butcher FnP units. As it doesn't require the check just that it can, sometimes, maybe, get access to the rule.

You can use FNP against weapons that inflict ID as long as they are not activated / your tests are failed. The BR states "unsaved wounds that inflict instant death" if your ability tests are not passed those wounds dont cause ID so FNP can be taken as normal, but that can only be determined after the outcome of the ID ability has been determined.

I have yet to see any evidence for a RAW argument that this is not a case of using the rules on page 9. So I don't follow how FNP must always happen after the force check.

Backlash wrote:
You can use FNP against weapons that inflict ID as long as they are not activated / your tests are failed. The BR states "unsaved wounds that inflict instant death" if your ability tests are not passed those wounds dont cause ID so FNP can be taken as normal, but that can only be determined after the outcome of the ID ability has been determined.

The GW FAQ:

"Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No."

It has the instant death special rule, yes through another rule, but it does have it. As the rule is on the weapon, FNP can not be used. Note that the FAQ does not say activated, after a test, or after a failed save, just that it has the rule.

The method i described above breaks no rules. It does not deny you a FNP roll if one, It simply make see if it can be made. "say the pyschic test is failed in the case of force you can still take your FNP" If FNP is taken first and failed as i said above and ID occurs again you HAVE broken a rule. Because you took a FNP ROLL "not pass, just the attempt breaks the rule" No part of FNP is denied. As an unsaved wound is inflicted before FNP can be activated. By trying to take FNP before checking to determine if ID is caused you try to ignore an undisputeable fact stated in the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death rule"

They do not have ID at all times. The wording is different. If you want wording that inflicts ID at all times look at the Swarmlord.

"The bone sabre's attacks inflict instant death regardless of the opponents toughness."

There is a difference. Force weapons only have it when the psychic test is passed. Bone swords only after your opponent fails his Ld test. Bone sabres just happen no test required same as double out. The argument here isnt if it can be taken against the weapon. but what ability takes precedence on order of operations the force aspect or FNP


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes you can take FNP against force weapons that havnt been activated.

So it seems I'm not the first one to have this debate. So I'll throw in here and see what happens. I'll start with some citations.

"Feel No pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it may make a special Feel no Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw).- Note that feel No Pain cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instance Death." (Pg 35, Little Rule Book, Top Right)

"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic Test (see Page 67). If the test is failed , or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (See page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force Weapons." (Pg 37, Little Rule Book, Top Left)

The rules state that "Feel No Pain" is not a saving throw, and is taken after saving throws have been failed however, "Feel no Pain" cannot be taken against an Instant Death attack. A Force Weapon can be activated immediately after a Unsaved Wound is inflicted, thus becoming an Instant Death attack and negating "Feel No Pain", this effect will only happen if the Psyker passes a Psychic test to activate the Force Weapon, Or if a has an item that automatically activates his Psychic power. If the Psyker does not have a Warp Charge then they cannot activate the Force Weapon and "Feel No Pain" is taken as normal.

Any thoughts on this?

easysauce wrote:

dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,

i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP

do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?

But the BRB has no section about the timing of skills and abilities.
The rulebook doesn't say anything about what immediately means.
If you are claiming that immediately means it should be rolled before anything, than I could argue that I will only remove my model from the game in about two turns since ID nowhere says I have to do it immediately.
See the issue with that?
Because of the flow of the game we have to assume that everything is done immediately, therefore the word has no meaning in here.

Besides: Why would you allow Armoursaves before using Force, but you won't allow FNP before the Force?

Or how about Life Leech?
That immediately gives you one wound for each unsaved wound it does.
So you are saying that FNP is able to stop the wound from Life Leech but will still give the caster of LL the wounds back?
That'd be a paradox and to avoid that paradox we first have to throw FNP and than use the Life Leech effect.