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I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Phaeton wrote:
I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Just my thought, DW Knights are much better than normal Termies. One round of smite per game will usually suffice for the killing blow.

 Tomb King wrote:
Lol, they are great against people who have balanced armies. Your preparing your TAC for multiple builds not just one. Just won again this time against foot guard with a manticore and vanquisher/hull las in support. List is 8-0.

Yes, but I take choices that maximize my ability to deal with a wide spectrum of builds. That's the point of an all-comers army-- it can face pretty much anyone and compete. For instance, my 1500 point all-comers build has two Vindicators, three TL Railguns, four melta weapons, two lascannons, and Null Zone. I am quite confident that it could deal with this army. While many components of my army will not be very effective against you (for instance my 24 Fire Warriors, Whirlwind, Quad-Gun, and Command Suit will be more or less worthless), the ones that are effective make up for it.

Where do you live? If you're close to the SF Bay Area I will happily go to your location and play against you.

a vulkan drop pod sternguard army can easily beat this list, but who does run that in tac anymore .

Although have you ever matched up against a railgun spam tau army? (much popular here specially with some sort of buffer in the front like 60 orcs) The orks wont be a problem for the crusader but 9 raılguns and droppin melta battlesuits might cause a problem.

Phaeton wrote:I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

wuestenfux wrote:

Phaeton wrote:
I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Just my thought, DW Knights are much better than normal Termies. One round of smite per game will usually suffice for the killing blow.

I might end up doing this. Would improve their survivability a good amount and actually make them a threat to MC's. To find the points I could drop 3 of the dozer blades but those things have saved me countless times. Could also

pizzaguardian wrote:a vulkan drop pod sternguard army can easily beat this list, but who does run that in tac anymore .

Although have you ever matched up against a railgun spam tau army? (much popular here specially with some sort of buffer in the front like 60 orcs) The orks wont be a problem for the crusader but 9 raılguns and droppin melta battlesuits might cause a problem.

Well I think a good portion of armies struggle against vulk drop pod sternguard. However, that list is hard countered by non-mech builds that dont mind a couple of melta guns. I would have to castle in the corner if they brought that list out and try to minimize the effects he could have when he came in or possibly reserve some of the raiders depending the mission.

As for 9 rail-guns.. I am not sure how I would scale up against that as I have never played against tau that ran that many except once with my csm and I won that game by a massacre. I would probably pick one that was isolated and deep strike next to it. Then its just a matter of trying to force a leadership as they are only leadership 8.

I think the list is fun. It makes me want to ally my Imperial Guard army with Dark Angels to get a 4+ save on a few Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Azrael makes an IG blob rather nasty too. Maybe just run a DA army with an IG detachment with a 40-50 man guard blob to run with Azrael, a Vendetta Gunship (no reasoning needed), and a pack of 3 Leman Russ Tanks to utilize the practically un-killable AV14 with 4+ invulnerable cheese!!! I'd love to make a list that way, but I don't have the DA codex. When my DA playing friend comes over next, I'll have to take some time to make a list.

P.S. I don't mean cheesy in a bad way. Cheesy is always good. In my local meta, everyone seems to be a power player. Most people sell old / buy new armies with each edition release, and min-max under-costed units like they're going out of style. I end up seeing tournament winning army copies pretty regularly. I'd love to see how this list would run against a horde SW / IG list like this. Can the land raiders actually dish out enough firepower to stop this many scoring units? The only real question would be whether the land raiders could actually shoot the army off the board in time.

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist

Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

Vindicator
Vindicator

This list is one I ran in a little local tournament a few months back. It's an exact copy of a list from Space Wolves Grey Blogspot, except I swapped out his 2 5-man packs of Long Fangs with missile launchers for the 2 Vindicators. Most people told me that I shouldn't do that, but the S10 AP2 pie plates are SOOOO helpful. They alwasy perform well for their reasonable price tag. They either soak up a bunch of fire, letting the infantry move forward, geting Njall in range to use his sillyness, or they absolutely destroy something. I've had those 2 vindicators drop countless TEQs and tanks that would have been a pain to deal with spamming missiles. I know that tanks took a hit, this edition, and there is very little armor saturation, but they still seem to work well for me.

Good list, dude, very good. As many have said, it's rock/paper/scissors, but unfortunately most certain builds of 40k armies are like that i.e D.E Venom spam vs Tyranids.

Speaking of D.E Venoms, I think a list with 27 dark light weapons stands a good chance. Providing all dark light weapons can fire, you're looking at 27 shots hitting 18 times with 9 glance which you will save 5 out of, that means a dead Land Raider. Of course this wouldn't happen every single turn due to D.E taking damage.

I think maybe a triple Manticore and triple Vendetta list with melta-Vets could tackle this, maybe. Manticores would just bomb from a distance and your hurricane bolters cannot hurt the Guard tanks; only the assault cannons (lucky auto pens) and multi meltas.

Another list which may do this is Daemons; triple Flamers and Screamers backed with double headed chicken-man. The Flamers would need to pick on a single Land Raider a time, which they would get 8 glances on average and you would fail 4, which means a dead Land Raider. Also, considering you tightly pack your Land Raiders it's possible they could do two birds with one stone. Then the Screamers could kill infantry inside or tackle another Land Raider, though they would need to get some good rolls as on average they will hit 12.

Of course the Daemons won't like mass bolters in their face so you will badly hurt them with returning fire.

As a simple to build/paint/play list I think it's great, plus it is damn tough too

Erik the Red wrote:I think the list is fun. It makes me want to ally my Imperial Guard army with Dark Angels to get a 4+ save on a few Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Azrael makes an IG blob rather nasty too. Maybe just run a DA army with an IG detachment with a 40-50 man guard blob to run with Azrael, a Vendetta Gunship (no reasoning needed), and a pack of 3 Leman Russ Tanks to utilize the practically un-killable AV14 with 4+ invulnerable cheese!!! I'd love to make a list that way, but I don't have the DA codex. When my DA playing friend comes over next, I'll have to take some time to make a list.

P.S. I don't mean cheesy in a bad way. Cheesy is always good. In my local meta, everyone seems to be a power player. Most people sell old / buy new armies with each edition release, and min-max under-costed units like they're going out of style. I end up seeing tournament winning army copies pretty regularly. I'd love to see how this list would run against a horde SW / IG list like this. Can the land raiders actually dish out enough firepower to stop this many scoring units? The only real question would be whether the land raiders could actually shoot the army off the board in time.

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist

Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

Vindicator
Vindicator

This list is one I ran in a little local tournament a few months back. It's an exact copy of a list from Space Wolves Grey Blogspot, except I swapped out his 2 5-man packs of Long Fangs with missile launchers for the 2 Vindicators. Most people told me that I shouldn't do that, but the S10 AP2 pie plates are SOOOO helpful. They alwasy perform well for their reasonable price tag. They either soak up a bunch of fire, letting the infantry move forward, geting Njall in range to use his sillyness, or they absolutely destroy something. I've had those 2 vindicators drop countless TEQs and tanks that would have been a pain to deal with spamming missiles. I know that tanks took a hit, this edition, and there is very little armor saturation, but they still seem to work well for me.

In your list the vindicators, and one squad of grey hunters is all that can hurt the land raiders. Beyond that your army is just taking damage every turn and hoping to survive. It might come down to type of mission but if its 5 objectives your army isnt exactly a fast one. I could see the list having serious troubles dealing with my land raider list.

mercer wrote:Good list, dude, very good. As many have said, it's rock/paper/scissors, but unfortunately most certain builds of 40k armies are like that i.e D.E Venom spam vs Tyranids.

Speaking of D.E Venoms, I think a list with 27 dark light weapons stands a good chance. Providing all dark light weapons can fire, you're looking at 27 shots hitting 18 times with 9 glance which you will save 5 out of, that means a dead Land Raider. Of course this wouldn't happen every single turn due to D.E taking damage.

I think maybe a triple Manticore and triple Vendetta list with melta-Vets could tackle this, maybe. Manticores would just bomb from a distance and your hurricane bolters cannot hurt the Guard tanks; only the assault cannons (lucky auto pens) and multi meltas.

Another list which may do this is Daemons; triple Flamers and Screamers backed with double headed chicken-man. The Flamers would need to pick on a single Land Raider a time, which they would get 8 glances on average and you would fail 4, which means a dead Land Raider. Also, considering you tightly pack your Land Raiders it's possible they could do two birds with one stone. Then the Screamers could kill infantry inside or tackle another Land Raider, though they would need to get some good rolls as on average they will hit 12.

Of course the Daemons won't like mass bolters in their face so you will badly hurt them with returning fire.

As a simple to build/paint/play list I think it's great, plus it is damn tough too

Well manticores still need to hit and then roll of a 4 is only a glance and they are not ap 1 or 2. So the damage results would vary significantly. As for vendetta's the math isnt in their favor. With 9 TL shots at one land raider they will average 1.125 HP's taken off and only a 18% chance to blow up the vehicle in the case of a pen.

As for the daemons and flamers. Just remember that they have to hit as much of the target as possible with their template, so hitting multiple raiders might be hard.

Indeed, Manticores do not rock awesome AP, but saying they need to hit is like saying your guns need to hit and kind of stating the obvious but also a weak defence against them. Anyway, the blast templates only need to touch and be full strength and get 2D6 armour pen. With your Land Raiders bunched up the Manticores are bound to hit something.

It is true that the maths isn't in the 'Dettas favour; lascannons aren't brilliant for av14, that's what mass melta and Manticores are for. The Vendettas however have a 32% chance to cause some damage and with three of them firing along with the Manticores they will take something out.

Flamers, depends on your position of the Land Raiders. From your bat rep photos you could get multiple Flamers in position and hit multiple vehicles pretty easily, though this would be after deep strike.

 mercer wrote:
Indeed, Manticores do not rock awesome AP, but saying they need to hit is like saying your guns need to hit and kind of stating the obvious but also a weak defence against them. Anyway, the blast templates only need to touch and be full strength and get 2D6 armour pen. With your Land Raiders bunched up the Manticores are bound to hit something.

It is true that the maths isn't in the 'Dettas favour; lascannons aren't brilliant for av14, that's what mass melta and Manticores are for. The Vendettas however have a 32% chance to cause some damage and with three of them firing along with the Manticores they will take something out.

Flamers, depends on your position of the Land Raiders. From your bat rep photos you could get multiple Flamers in position and hit multiple vehicles pretty easily, though this would be after deep strike.

Ya the flamers would need to score a hit or land somewhat favorably to get those hits because if they wait a turn to get their effects then they are priority number 1 for me. Im not as worried about S5 armorbane as I am 4+ to glance x 9.

The Flamers probably would be best going for alpha strike and going for a single Land Raider at a time. I think that's there best chances.

Yeah, Screamers would need some good rolls; on average they are going to get 12. With their mass attacks (24) from a unit of six I think they may get the job done, maybe. Not as certain as Flamers though.

So you want to use land raiders... Bravo.

4 tanks is around 1000+ points with certain upgrades.

Trust me on this. Even with cover and that nifty wargear DA has won't help you much. Per round, you might lose a tank. Worst case, they get smart, pod in a suicide melta unit or scout in to take out the object tat give you the most benefits.

AV14 is nothing when it comes to battle sisters scouting an immolator with a dominion squad, or vanilla marines podding a stern guard squad of 10 with melta guns or combi melta and combat squad them. The worst is when space wolves shows up with their own scouts or outflank.

Still, you have steel balls to run this, but you will have to be careful at what you are shooting at. The enemy might have too many models on the table to kill or too many squads. In my place, there will never be an army that is less than 65 models and that also includes tanks and infantry support. Guard players i play with would have more than 100 infantry with a special weapon in each squad as an infantry screen for the other heavier options AND cost less than 300 points and fulfill FOC troop requirements.

If they have cheap transports, they will sacrifice tem to block LOS a a desperate measure to advance infantry.

Land raiders have power of the machine spirit. You have 4 land raiders for example. You have 8 shots at full BS at 8 different targets if you advance at combat speed.

If you take terminator squads or death wing knights, you do not have much infantry to support your tanks and they are out gunned and out squaded. And all you have is that piece of wargear to save your tanks, but every thing must be close by,

You are placing all your bets on that power field generator. With 25 infantry models to support 4 land raiders. ONE elite unit of five men.

This army is only good for fun, but competitive... No it is not.

You only have 30+ odd models on the table. Your combat effectiveness is already low, with weapon ranges of 24 and a threat range of 36 inches for your shooting, also relying on the banner to salvo your bolters on the crusaders, with only 4 multi meltas on them tanks.

AND you still want to argue you can win? Statistically, you would win little, but lose lots. After viewing 4 pages on this thread, a TAC list hat is weary of infantry saves of 2+ will chew this them tanks up after your banner of devastation and that force generator is gone. You only have two things that make this list works and if they are obliterated, you are finished.

But I love this list of yours. It screams space marine style. Dispute what I have written, the force of the rule of cool is within this list.

wallacethe5 wrote:
AV14 is nothing when it comes to battle sisters scouting an immolator with a dominion squad, or vanilla marines podding a stern guard squad of 10 with melta guns or combi melta and combat squad them. The worst is when space wolves shows up with their own scouts or outflank.

How often do you really see any of these things in a list? I have personally never seen a Sisters army ( but I would like to, I think they're pretty cool). I've never seen a SW player using scouts - lots of drop pods, which could hurt this list some. I have also never seen someone run a sternguard squad with 10 melta guns, that is silly, and would defeat the point of taking sternguard(the special ammo). The large amount of combi-melta could hurt, as that is more plausible, but still not going to be that many in most TAC lists.

wallacethe5 wrote:
In my place, there will never be an army that is less than 65 models and that also includes tanks and infantry support. Guard players i play with would have more than 100 infantry with a special weapon in each squad as an infantry screen for the other heavier options AND cost less than 300 points and fulfill FOC troop requirements.
Land raiders have power of the machine spirit. You have 4 land raiders for example. You have 8 shots at full BS at 8 different targets if you advance at combat speed.

That is 8 weapon, not 8 shots. 8 Hurricane Bolters would be 12 shots*8=96 twin-linked BS4 shots per turn, ignoring the armor on those guardsmen. I would think this would take them out fairly efficiently. Oh, and add in the 16 twin-linked assault cannon shots at BS1, and the 4 MM shots at BS1. Depending on the target, you can switch up what goes at full BS.

wallacethe5 wrote:
You only have 30+ odd models on the table. Your combat effectiveness is already low, with weapon ranges of 24 and a threat range of 36 inches for your shooting, also relying on the banner to salvo your bolters on the crusaders, with only 4 multi meltas on them tanks.

The biggest problem for this list will be other high-armor lists, yes, there are only 4 major threats here to other AV14 (the assault cannons are a small threat to them as well).

wallacethe5 wrote:
Statistically, you would win little, but lose lots.

I do believe that most of what has been posted in this thread refutes this claim.

wallacethe5 wrote:
After viewing 4 pages on this thread, a TAC list hat is weary of infantry saves of 2+ will chew this them tanks up after your banner of devastation and that force generator is gone.

Not really sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying this list will have a hard time dealing with terminators?

I ran this list (or at least a pretty close list) a couple days ago and got smoked by a triple Obliterator Chaos build. The Land Raider list is cool, but a couple lucky shots and this list goes south quick.

The initial Oblit drop yeilded not a scratch on my Land Raiders. I shot one unit dead, and cleared about 5 Spawn that were accompying a lord w/ melta bomb.

THe next turn the last unit of Oblitz came down and destroyed one Raider, while the other unit I couldnt dispose of, got through my 4++ on the Libby's Land Raider exploding that one as well. Then the Helldrakes cleaned up one of the Tac squads. The oblits also made a 7" charge through terrain and got to my Libby....locking him in place.

I killed a lot of the CHaos army when all was said and done, but all my infantry was gone, and one lone Raider remained. Cultists grabbed some objectives and that was that.

The list is fun...to play, I dont know how fun it is for my opponent.

Well thats just it, I think it scores points for creativity and I don't want to sound negative but the list doesn't have to range or mobility to win against a strong tournament IMO. By strong tournament I mean one that runs top tier balanced armies not that horribad SW list you posted in vassal.

Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks and your posting it with a straight face saying 'still 8-0 lol'. This is why I asked 2 pages ago for your opponents army lists when you were "beating face" because if they were similar to that one I am not surprised, heck any armor saturation would man handle that list.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks.p.

Don't forget the 2 LF lascannons and twin-linked lascannon.

Why would you take a Power Sword on a TWC?
Plasma Cannon Long Fangs?
Whirlwind???
Yikes.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:
I ran this list (or at least a pretty close list) a couple days ago and got smoked by a triple Obliterator Chaos build. The Land Raider list is cool, but a couple lucky shots and this list goes south quick.

The initial Oblit drop yeilded not a scratch on my Land Raiders. I shot one unit dead, and cleared about 5 Spawn that were accompying a lord w/ melta bomb.

THe next turn the last unit of Oblitz came down and destroyed one Raider, while the other unit I couldnt dispose of, got through my 4++ on the Libby's Land Raider exploding that one as well. Then the Helldrakes cleaned up one of the Tac squads. The oblits also made a 7" charge through terrain and got to my Libby....locking him in place.

I killed a lot of the CHaos army when all was said and done, but all my infantry was gone, and one lone Raider remained. Cultists grabbed some objectives and that was that.

The list is fun...to play, I dont know how fun it is for my opponent.

Yea now imagine null zone and drop podding stern guard combat squading 6" out the pods. They would wrap your tank phalanx and melta blast it from every angle and then leave you with MSU threats plus the congestion of the pods. This isn't an uncommon build either.

I think the idea is sound but I would run 2 LR and more scoring units personally, to me 4 seems way to easy to out maneuver. By the way I believe in a decent LOS blocking piece of terrain in the center of the table as do most TO's which is why 4 landraiders seems easily countered to me by mobile armies like DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks.p.

Don't forget the 2 LF lascannons and twin-linked lascannon.

Why would you take a Power Sword on a TWC?
Plasma Cannon Long Fangs?
Whirlwind???
Yikes.

Ha ha good catch Pretre I forgot how amazing a couple LC can be against AV14

Yea I laughed at the PW as well, by the time I got to the heavy support I couldn't take that list seriously

Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

 A GumyBear wrote:
Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

4cm shots is less than 30% chance to kill a DW landraider with Nullzone assumed to be cast. So this surething seems some what hopeful. Yes you could kill a landraider but you are unlikely to. The biggest issue the list has from a tournament perspective is a couple of lucky shots beats the list and over a tournament that is bound to happen once.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

As stated above I dont see that combo almost always dropping a land raider.

As stated above if someone thinks they have a winning list to bring this down without pure tailoring then your welcome to get a game with me on vassal. I am probably too far to play in person.

I've wanted to run a list like this for awhile.

But what happens if I drop one of the LRs and the associated tactical squad and bring a couple Vendettas and accoutrement?

It looks like a VERY solid list but it's not unstoppable. Enough anti tank, scoring units and your done for...

One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I like this list better with just a Command Squad with a Dev Banner in a LR with the equivalent number of twin-linked bolters mounted on Ravenwing bikes as there are on 3 more LR's.

A LR costs about the same as a RW AS with a MM AB. They both have the equivalent firepower except, the bikes are so much more mobile and are shut down with a single lucky shot.

I do like the toughness a LR adds to the Dev Banner though - its almost required because if its mounted on a biker Command squad it becomes alot easier to shut down.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I wish it were a perfect world and everything went as planned. You talk of killing a AV14 4HP vehicle like its a land speeder. The 335 points for a sternguard squad decked out with 10 melta guns and a drop pod. Then you need that drop pod to land close enough to get into melta range. Then if you combat squad they have a 37% chance to destroy land raider and average 1.2 hp's. This is in a vaccum assuming you can deep strike and get all 5 of them in range to get their shots off within melta range. If you shoot all 10 at one land raider then you have a 74% chance of destroying the land raider and average 2.4hp's. Then your just down to two melta's.. so if the one trick pony doesn't work as planned then it will be a rough next turn.

This list seems hilarious to play. 4 Land Raider Crusaders? Sound crazy, in a good way.

Thanks for sharing vassal batrep. Do you have the models for this? Could you consider sharing a full tabletop report of a game with this army, once you can get a game going?

 Tomb King wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I wish it were a perfect world and everything went as planned. You talk of killing a AV14 4HP vehicle like its a land speeder. The 335 points for a sternguard squad decked out with 10 melta guns and a drop pod. Then you need that drop pod to land close enough to get into melta range. Then if you combat squad they have a 37% chance to destroy land raider and average 1.2 hp's. This is in a vaccum assuming you can deep strike and get all 5 of them in range to get their shots off within melta range. If you shoot all 10 at one land raider then you have a 74% chance of destroying the land raider and average 2.4hp's. Then your just down to two melta's.. so if the one trick pony doesn't work as planned then it will be a rough next turn.

Your right, people underestimate how tough these vehicles are. Even with 10 meltagun sterngaurd it's not a auto win and even if the take down 1 landraider, the will still die next round. 3 big landraiders can block the one important landraider so that their droppodmelta's cannot reach 6 inch. When you have to reroll your 4+ inv save (null zone) doesnt mean it wont work.

This also works the other way around and a few lucky shots could take down your landraiders. Thats the price of this "trick".

I love the maths genius that thinks 21/36 is auto pen on all shots. average dice on 1d6 is 3.5 does that mean space marines never miss?

As people (including me) have pointed out the sg melta attack isn't actually that likely to work. particularly if he finds the extra 60 points to make a full venerable frontage.

But yes over a tournament a couple of lucky shots beats this list.

Loving the list Tomb King, but why not drop the tac squads and termies to get 100% more firepower and an AA dread?

Librarian 95
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Field Generator
Command Squad 165
Dev Standard

5 Scouts x2

Ravenwing Darktalon 480pts
Ravenwing Darktalon
Ravenwing Darktalon

Land Raider Crusader (265pts) x3
Melta, Dozer.

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought
TL AC, Cyclone Missile Launcher

I think a lot of the strength of this list depends on terrain placement rolls.


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As I sometimes play a similar GK LR list and placing your own lines of fire and cover are huge to the alpha strike and beta strike capabilities of this list.