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 Blackmoor wrote:
I wrote this in the other thread and I will post it here:

I think "us" as players need to do more to be proactive as far as time management goes. That means keeping track of time like timers or cell phones, have an army that can play fast, and if not have a system that speeds play. And then if falling behind encouraging and motivating our opponents to hurry up.

I was going to bring Eldar/Dark Eldar to Adepticon but I am not that proficient with that army, and it takes a while to play with all of the movement and shooting. That is why I am sticking with the Grey Knights because they play fast, I know them well, and I will almost always finish my games.

I'd agree that the onus lies on both parties. If I feel we're going slow, I remind my opponent of the time (respectfully) ask him/let him know we'll both need to hurry up (even if it is only him) in order to finish out the turns/get a good game in - I'll do this from the very start if I feel it's going to be a problem. I've had opponents spend 15 minutes thinking about their deployment, and another 5-10 doing it - you cant wait until 30 minutes to go on turn 3 to start saying something.

I play a horde army - 2x 50 man guard blobs and plenty of other elements. I know that in order to get a good game in, I will rarely get to "optimally" space my models, I've developed tricks for moving them faster, and I try to play fast. As such, my turns usually clock in around 15-20 minutes at the very upper end. In the two GTs I've played in recently (both with ~150 models on my side of the board, plenty of shooting from plenty of separate units), I've finished the game naturally in all but 1/10 - so it is possible to play high model count armies and still get things done. But, don't try it unless you're willing to do what it takes to ensure you aren't slowing down the process.

For what it's worth, I played a one-armed, mentally handicapped Ork player who managed a full 2000 pt game in 5th every round of a local tourney. Horde armies aren't really an excuse in my book.

I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

The issues I've seen are typically form horde players, who want to play with the precision/effectiveness of a low model count army. IE, I brought a horde army, but I still insist on getting 2 inch spacing, every millimeter of movement from each model, etc etc. I accept that, since I play a horde list currently, I'm going to take more casualties from manticores/templates etc., because I don't have the luxury of perfect spacing/etc. due to time - and that's fine.

Target wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

The issues I've seen are typically form horde players, who want to play with the precision/effectiveness of a low model count army. IE, I brought a horde army, but I still insist on getting 2 inch spacing, every millimeter of movement from each model, etc etc. I accept that, since I play a horde list currently, I'm going to take more casualties from manticores/templates etc., because I don't have the luxury of perfect spacing/etc. due to time - and that's fine.

Blast templates etc are a real issue for hordes. Fine my opponent wants me to be slap-dash in movement to get through moving 100 models, but then in their own turn are captain precision on the blast templates and even the merest glance of a base they are demanding a hit - so I then have to start placing models more carefully. Works both ways ...

I've had good luck with removing fingers. A good, sharp Exacto knife to the farthest out digit usually does the trick. By the time two or three fingers are gone, they either pick up the pace or pass out from blood loss. I count those as quitters.

 ruminator wrote:

Target wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

The issues I've seen are typically form horde players, who want to play with the precision/effectiveness of a low model count army. IE, I brought a horde army, but I still insist on getting 2 inch spacing, every millimeter of movement from each model, etc etc. I accept that, since I play a horde list currently, I'm going to take more casualties from manticores/templates etc., because I don't have the luxury of perfect spacing/etc. due to time - and that's fine.

Blast templates etc are a real issue for hordes. Fine my opponent wants me to be slap-dash in movement to get through moving 100 models, but then in their own turn are captain precision on the blast templates and even the merest glance of a base they are demanding a hit - so I then have to start placing models more carefully. Works both ways ...

/Shrug, I just accept it as the cost of doing business. If it's close, I just give the hit to my opponent and suck up the fact that i may put several more models under the blast then I normally would if I were playing half as many models and had more time to be precise with it.

One good way of preventing players from stalling is to hook their testicles up to a 9 volt battery and a chess clock, ensuring that they receive a small dose of voltage should they not complete their turn and press a button inside 60 seconds.

For official GW tournaments where they take things a tad more seriously, the 9 volt battery is replaced with the batteries from a selection of heavy industrial and agricultural vehicles.

Target wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

Target wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

The issues I've seen are typically form horde players, who want to play with the precision/effectiveness of a low model count army. IE, I brought a horde army, but I still insist on getting 2 inch spacing, every millimeter of movement from each model, etc etc. I accept that, since I play a horde list currently, I'm going to take more casualties from manticores/templates etc., because I don't have the luxury of perfect spacing/etc. due to time - and that's fine.

Blast templates etc are a real issue for hordes. Fine my opponent wants me to be slap-dash in movement to get through moving 100 models, but then in their own turn are captain precision on the blast templates and even the merest glance of a base they are demanding a hit - so I then have to start placing models more carefully. Works both ways ...

/Shrug, I just accept it as the cost of doing business. If it's close, I just give the hit to my opponent and suck up the fact that i may put several more models under the blast then I normally would if I were playing half as many models and had more time to be precise with it.

But 40k's balance is not designed around time... and basically horde players are forced by 'social convention' to hurry movement but then people who play MSU armies who have time to tweak every model's position get unfair advantages by the dilution of the horde players 'paid for by points' advantage of having lots of models and to be able to spread out. Equal time even makes this worse as someone with MSU can waste time by claiming he needs 10 minutes to move 3 rhinos and 15 men simply because the guy with 150 models took that long. That is not at all fair, maybe if I don't shoot and my shooting phase is 1 minute, your igard army should have 1 minute shooting as well?

The more people focus on how unfair it is because of time, (something not in the rules or in the balance of armies) why don't we focus on how unfair it is to make horde players play in such a way the effects they have paid for by points are being forced into not taking advantage of because impatient people. I would never ask you not to take your 2+ save on your terminator. Instead of a 2+ save, I have 12 bodies which need to be 2" apart to be equally effective.

Of course if you wanted to make it FAIR and FAST for horde players, give all units 20+ models which are moved in a slapdash manor a 6+invun to shooting. So you get 7 guys instead of the 4 you should have? Oh, one of those guys survived a 6+ save. Then you are balancing out the disadvantage of forcing horde players from being precision with movements without diluting their wargear and unit cost through expecting them to not play the rules precisely in favor of 'speed'.

It has nothing to do with being impatient. What is fair is both players get the same amount of time to play. There is no convention that a horde army should get more time and to say so is just plain silly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has nothing to do with being impatient. What is fair is both players get the same amount of time to play. There is no convention that a horde army should get more time and to say so is just plain silly.

Agreed. Expecting to get more game time than your opponent doesn't really make sense. Besides, any rule that would give hordes more time could likely be exploited. If you want to use a huge horde, learn to play quickly!

nkelsch wrote:

Target wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

Target wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree totally. There is no excuse for a horde army only getting in two to three turns. There is no reason why they can't get to turn 5.

The issues I've seen are typically form horde players, who want to play with the precision/effectiveness of a low model count army. IE, I brought a horde army, but I still insist on getting 2 inch spacing, every millimeter of movement from each model, etc etc. I accept that, since I play a horde list currently, I'm going to take more casualties from manticores/templates etc., because I don't have the luxury of perfect spacing/etc. due to time - and that's fine.

Blast templates etc are a real issue for hordes. Fine my opponent wants me to be slap-dash in movement to get through moving 100 models, but then in their own turn are captain precision on the blast templates and even the merest glance of a base they are demanding a hit - so I then have to start placing models more carefully. Works both ways ...

/Shrug, I just accept it as the cost of doing business. If it's close, I just give the hit to my opponent and suck up the fact that i may put several more models under the blast then I normally would if I were playing half as many models and had more time to be precise with it.

But 40k's balance is not designed around time... and basically horde players are forced by 'social convention' to hurry movement but then people who play MSU armies who have time to tweak every model's position get unfair advantages by the dilution of the horde players 'paid for by points' advantage of having lots of models and to be able to spread out. Equal time even makes this worse as someone with MSU can waste time by claiming he needs 10 minutes to move 3 rhinos and 15 men simply because the guy with 150 models took that long. That is not at all fair, maybe if I don't shoot and my shooting phase is 1 minute, your igard army should have 1 minute shooting as well?

The more people focus on how unfair it is because of time, (something not in the rules or in the balance of armies) why don't we focus on how unfair it is to make horde players play in such a way the effects they have paid for by points are being forced into not taking advantage of because impatient people. I would never ask you not to take your 2+ save on your terminator. Instead of a 2+ save, I have 12 bodies which need to be 2" apart to be equally effective.

Of course if you wanted to make it FAIR and FAST for horde players, give all units 20+ models which are moved in a slapdash manor a 6+invun to shooting. So you get 7 guys instead of the 4 you should have? Oh, one of those guys survived a 6+ save. Then you are balancing out the disadvantage of forcing horde players from being precision with movements without diluting their wargear and unit cost through expecting them to not play the rules precisely in favor of 'speed'.

GW does not write the rules with tournaments in mind. The tournament states how much time you have. Players generally don't use the same ammount of time during the game. That said, it is only fair to assume that if you choose to bring a horde to a tournament with timed rounds (a neccessity) then you need to be able to finish your games in the time provided. If that means you have to space a little less precisely than you would like so be it (sometimes you will probably be 2.1" and sometimes you will be 1.8" it won't be a big deal, you can eyeball it.). It is far less fair for you as a horde player to spend time spreading out, and only get through turn 3 of the game essentailly denying your opponent 50% of his game turns.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has nothing to do with being impatient. What is fair is both players get the same amount of time to play. There is no convention that a horde army should get more time and to say so is just plain silly.

Agreed. Expecting to get more game time than your opponent doesn't really make sense. Besides, any rule that would give hordes more time could likely be exploited. If you want to use a huge horde, learn to play quickly!

Page number for this rule please? Where is this expectation of equal time in the rulebook or the design team?

It doesn't exist. The game has no expectation of 'equal play' Time restrictions are 'army comp' imposed by TOs. It is no different than limiting heavy support slots or disallowing special characters. They are all rules made up to control and influence what kind of armies people bring. All comp is subjective and none is more or less fair than the other.

There are no rules regarding time so any rules which apply 'time' to 40k is a made up house rule or 'social convention'. Don't pretend otherwise.

What you're claiming isn't in the rulebook. Mine comes under the section regarding good sportsmanship.

nkelsch wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has nothing to do with being impatient. What is fair is both players get the same amount of time to play. There is no convention that a horde army should get more time and to say so is just plain silly.

Agreed. Expecting to get more game time than your opponent doesn't really make sense. Besides, any rule that would give hordes more time could likely be exploited. If you want to use a huge horde, learn to play quickly!

Page number for this rule please? Where is this expectation of equal time in the rulebook or the design team?

It doesn't exist. The game has no expectation of 'equal play' Time restrictions are 'army comp' imposed by TOs. It is no different than limiting heavy support slots or disallowing special characters. They are all rules made up to control and influence what kind of armies people bring. All comp is subjective and none is more or less fair than the other.

There are no rules regarding time so any rules which apply 'time' to 40k is a made up house rule or 'social convention'. Don't pretend otherwise.

The issue is how do you not have timed games at a tournament? So your horde game lasts 5 hours, everyone else is done 2 hours before you....Your last game lasts that long and the store is closing. Timed rounds are a neccessity for tournaments. So are you saying that you should not have to finish your games because it is not in the rulebook that you have to play timed. If that is how you feel don't go to a tournament. Finishing the game in a given time is a "tournament rule" You can still spread out and play fast if you choose to, or you can choose not to run horde at a tournament.

nkelsch wrote:
Page number for this rule please? Where is this expectation of equal time in the rulebook or the design team?

There isn't any. But where's the page number for the rule that says you get to spend more turn time if your guys take longer to move or you're indecisive or whatever? There also isn't any. The community has to create their own rules when it comes to playing under time constraints, and in an environment with time constraints I (and others) feel that expecting to get more time than your opponent is a little silly.

That said it is also unreasonable to expect to get equal time, what is reasonable is to expect that people will finish their games, and the only way you can realisitically expect that to work is if you can play your turns at or under half the ammount of alloted time. Otherwise what happens when you go expecting to get 1 hour 45 min of the alloted 2.5 hours and your opponent also brings a horde army, need the same amount of time.

Breng77 wrote:
That said it is also unreasonable to expect to get equal time, what is reasonable is to expect that people will finish their games, and the only way you can realisitically expect that to work is if you can play your turns at or under half the ammount of alloted time. Otherwise what happens when you go expecting to get 1 hour 45 min of the alloted 2.5 hours and your opponent also brings a horde army, need the same amount of time.

Agreed.

nkelsch wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has nothing to do with being impatient. What is fair is both players get the same amount of time to play. There is no convention that a horde army should get more time and to say so is just plain silly.

Agreed. Expecting to get more game time than your opponent doesn't really make sense. Besides, any rule that would give hordes more time could likely be exploited. If you want to use a huge horde, learn to play quickly!

Page number for this rule please? Where is this expectation of equal time in the rulebook or the design team?

It doesn't exist. The game has no expectation of 'equal play' Time restrictions are 'army comp' imposed by TOs. It is no different than limiting heavy support slots or disallowing special characters. They are all rules made up to control and influence what kind of armies people bring. All comp is subjective and none is more or less fair than the other.

There are no rules regarding time so any rules which apply 'time' to 40k is a made up house rule or 'social convention'. Don't pretend otherwise.

This isn't YMDC.

The rulebook also doesn't state that you can use Forgeworld models in a standard game of 40k, yet tournaments allow it. The rulebook doesn't say I have to use the most recent version of my armies codex, yet tournaments say which versions I can use.

This is a discussion about tournaments, the time required for turns, and the ways to prevent a player from purposefully stalling. None of which can be referenced by page number in the rulebook so asserting the need for such a citation is completely unfounded.

As a player of an IG foot horde army, I think that it is my responsibility to know my army,how to move it,shoot it,play it. Regardless of what it is,if you field it at a tourney you should know what to do with it,and really Ive found that,being quick with a horde army kinda unnerves folks,so is another tactic for me to utilize.

The issue is players should be allowed to take as long as it takes to play the units they have paid for with the points.

Games should be allowed to be played to their natural conclusion. Which means the time needs to be set appropriately to accommodate the points level.

Pressuring certain builds which have longer phases to 'not participate is COMP and unsportsmanlike. Just because something takes longer to play than something else doesn't mean it is slow play.

Equal time is not in the rules and the game is not designed for it so any talk of equal time is unsportsmanlike or instituting COMP, an arbitrary rule which tells people what they can or cannot be brought to an event through punishment of armies which don't fit the idea of the COMP.

There is a huge difference between being indecisive and simply taking the appropriate time to play your army. Pressuring someone who is taking the appropriate time to 'hurry up' and expecting him to 'play worse' because you are hurrying him with his model placement, then taking advantage of his hurry by having more effective templates is poor sportsmanship.

The solution is to not have 2000 points in a 2 hour game. and let games play to their natural conclusion and not make up COMP rules to punish players with long phases with unreasonable concepts like 'equal time'.

So how longs is enough time? 2.5 hours? 3 hours? I've seen people take 6 hours to play 2000 points (back in 5th even) should I be allowing for that? I agree 2 hours is not enough, but it is unreasonable to allow more than 3 hours for a tournament round. Now maybe you feel we should never play 2k points, and that is a discussion to have, but saying that every tournament should allow every build to be able to play at what ever pace they please and finish the game naturally is ridiculous. There is no possible way that that can be accounted for. Expecting people to be able to finish their game in 1/2 the alloted time is only fair (so for a 2.5 hour round, each player should be able to finish in 1.25 hours) Saying anything else is unreasonable beacuse again what happens if both players bring armies that need more than half the time?

I don't even play armies with many templates so if I hurry someone is this a problem?

For me it comes down to this, you know ahead of time how much time you will have, if you cannot play an army well within that time frame don't bring that army or don't go. Its not comp, its logistics.You simply cannot have three 5 hour rounds in a tourney.

To me it is unreasonable for someone to need to measure 2" coherencey for each of 180 ork boyz, every time you move. measure it at set up, and make it close enough, 0.1" one way or another does not make or break your game.

This is not just a horde issue, gunlines can often have 20+ minute shooting phases, especially since shooting decisions seem to waste way more time than marching horde models forward 6".

It is a double-standard. Horde players are expected to be rushed and sloppy because people are 'bored' waiting for them even if they are moving models at a reasonable pace.

They then break out the precise measurements when they want to unload their gunline on that horde for 20 minutes and want tons of template coverage.

Some armies *WILL* take longer to play and will use more of the time. Assault armies often have a long assault phase on THEIR turn. Gunlines have long shooting phases. Equal time is not reasonable in any aspect of 40k. And hurrying people to gain an advantage is also unreasonable.

so then what is your solution for tournaments?

Unlimited time? Smaller point games? give players time based on their list? (which does not take things like experience into account)

Point is most events only have a limited time (be it 10 hours or whatever) to fit in say 3 rounds, at which point if you want a break of anykind for food, you end up with rounds of less than 3 hours (or at least not more than), and should be expected to finish games. I'm not suggesting all armies take the same amount of time to play, but you need to play yours as quickly as you can, and should not expect to have more than 1/2 the time available to play your army, nor should you expect your opponent to use less time because you need the time.

rushing players is far superior to allowing players to game the system to shorten the game. It is not unfair or unreasonable to expect people to play by the agreed upon tournament rules (if the rules say finish games of 2k points in 2 hours you knew that going in and should attempt to do so.)

A good general rule I think works is one hour and 15 minutes per thousand points.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not suggesting all armies take the same amount of time to play, but you need to play yours as quickly as you can, and should not expect to have more than 1/2 the time available to play your army, nor should you expect your opponent to use less time because you need the time.

Wrong. If the game can finish to its natural conclusion, and I used 75% of the time on my turns, so be it. Actions are interactive so this false expectation of 'equal time' is nothing but ARMY COMP by people who play MSU armies with small model counts gaming the system and forcing unreasonable time expectations where there should be none.

Assault armies often have one massive assault phase which would happen on one persons turn or the other. That person shouldn't be punished for assaulting. And there will never be an equally large assault phase on the opponent's side. There is no possible way for equal time to ever function in 40k without unbalancing armies and breaking the META to a point where it is arbitrary ARMY COMP.

Horde players are not slow playing, people just dislike long phases where they have nothing to do or are just removing casualties from the board. Any time someone has a long movement or shooting phase, the false accusation of 'slow play' often gets thrown out and the false entitled attitude of 'equal time' is used as a justification.

The core issue is if times are the appropriate length and people have no expectation of 'equal time' and you just play the game at a correct pace, then it works out fine.

Yes if you us 75% of the time and we finish that is fine. Where the problem arises is when you bring an army with the intent of using 75% of the time and so do I. If we play each other and both need 1.5 hours out of 2 hours simply put we won't finish. You still have not answered what you think appropriate time is.

What I am saying is that you should expect to only have 1/2 the available time to complete your turns, you may end up using more if you can, but if you show up intending to use 75% of the available time, and you opponent shows up intending to use 50% you won't finish. I don't care if your turns are longer so long as they are short enough that in conjunction with mine we will finish in the time allotted. My opinion would be if you use 75% of the time and we don't finish you are playing too slowly.

nkelsch I agree that super shooty armies like IG can have very long shooting phases. Basically they need to play faster too. I remember a league game that took almost six hours to play (2k vs IG)... finally I went to the shop owner and complained a lot for a very long time. They then told my opponent to really speed it up.

Dollar Tree stores have 99 cent timers. No need to pay several bucks on Amazon.com. I *do* pack one in my army box, but have only used it once for a notoriously slow player, who quit 40k before 5e ended.

nkelsch wrote:
This is not just a horde issue, gunlines can often have 20+ minute shooting phases, especially since shooting decisions seem to waste way more time than marching horde models forward 6".

It is a double-standard. Horde players are expected to be rushed and sloppy because people are 'bored' waiting for them even if they are moving models at a reasonable pace.

They then break out the precise measurements when they want to unload their gunline on that horde for 20 minutes and want tons of template coverage.

Some armies *WILL* take longer to play and will use more of the time. Assault armies often have a long assault phase on THEIR turn. Gunlines have long shooting phases. Equal time is not reasonable in any aspect of 40k. And hurrying people to gain an advantage is also unreasonable.

This. You rush your movement only for the opponent to try his blast template in about 10 different positions before shooting - and then repeat for each shot - and then saying it's entirely your fault for the game being slow. Also, once I've moved the front line of a unit forward you can measure the range in my turn while I move the rest of my models. There is no need to wait until your turn.