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 insaniak wrote:

That was changed in the Rulebook errata about 3 and a half minutes after the Rulebook was released. The skyshield has no access or firepoints. You just move onto it from anywhere you want with a difficult terrain test.

Well that really mucks it up. The rule was fine as written... /break game

 DeathReaper wrote:
No that is not impossible, it is hard to put it in a solid wall, as you would have to modify the terrain to get it to fit in a location where the model is clearly allowed to move. It can be done, it is not impossible, but it sure is hard to do as you would need a cutting instrument to get the model to stay in that location.

This is a joke, right? You aren't allowed to cut a hole in terrain to make room for your model, so it is impossible to have a model placed halfway through one.

Actually WMS requires no such thing.

I guess this is the strategy of "repeat it often enough and people will believe it is true"? I've quoted the WMS rules, and it says you have to successfully place the model (and then ask for permission) before moving it to a safer location.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No that is not impossible, it is hard to put it in a solid wall, as you would have to modify the terrain to get it to fit in a location where the model is clearly allowed to move. It can be done, it is not impossible, but it sure is hard to do as you would need a cutting instrument to get the model to stay in that location.

This is a joke, right? You aren't allowed to cut a hole in terrain to make room for your model, so it is impossible to have a model placed halfway through one.

And yet, for the vast majority of players (at least from my experience) it is played as allowing you to have a model halfway through a wall.

Regardless of your personal opinion on the RAW, it is worth considering how the game is actually played, and how that impacts a rules issue. In this case, the idea that WMS allows you to put the model there despite it not being physically able to be placed is both consistent with one interpretation of the rule, and how the game is generally played. YMMV, depending on your interpretation of WMS and your local game, obviously.

This must be the first time that a majority of players getting a rule wrong is used as a justification for playing it that way...

 Crablezworth wrote:
This must be the first time that a majority of players getting a rule wrong is used as a justification for playing it that way...

Line of sight, blasts wounding out of line of sight, equivalence of wounds and pens/glances...

There's more, but no - this isn't the first. And if you wouldn't mind toning down the patronizing tone that'd be great.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
For once I don't even feel the need to debate this because you guys (nos, reaper) aren't even trying anymore. Well done peregrine, well done.

Don't have to try when the rules are clear that models may float to the Skyshield with a DT test... There is no real room to say otherwise.

Citation needed... Where do the rules say "float"?

In the case of the Skyshield Move/Float is the same thing as they allow you to move onto or off of the skyshield with a DT test. You can be in the center of the Skyshield, roll for DT and move through the floor off of the skyshield.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
For once I don't even feel the need to debate this because you guys (nos, reaper) aren't even trying anymore. Well done peregrine, well done.

Don't have to try when the rules are clear that models may float to the Skyshield with a DT test... There is no real room to say otherwise.

Citation needed... Where do the rules say "float"?

In the case of the Skyshield Move/Float is the same thing as they allow you to move onto or off of the skyshield with a DT test. You can be in the center of the Skyshield, roll for DT and move through the floor off of the skyshield.

Yes you can move onto the skyshield if you have room. You can't float onto it if there's no room for your models. As Peregerine said you can go from point A to point B, but you can't decide to stop in the middle

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Yes you can move onto the skyshield if you have room. You can't float onto it if there's no room for your models. As Peregerine said you can go from point A to point B, but you can't decide to stop in the middle

Why can you not stop in an area that the rules allow you to move through?

Got a Page and Graph that says this, or is it just an assumption?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why can you not stop in an area that the rules allow you to move through?

Because you can't place the model there. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why can you not stop in an area that the rules allow you to move through?

Because you can't place the model there. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

That's perfectly easy to understand. But irrelevant to someone who disagrees with your take on WMS.

 insaniak wrote:
That's perfectly easy to understand. But irrelevant to someone who disagrees with your take on WMS.

And I don't understand how anyone can possibly disagree. WMS says very clearly what you have to do, and it does not include pointing to a spot in midair and saying "that's where my model is".

 Peregrine wrote:
And I don't understand how anyone can possibly disagree. WMS says very clearly what you have to do, and it does not include pointing to a spot in midair and saying "that's where my model is".

Understand it or not, people do disagree.

That's not the end of the world. The thread doesn't have to end with one 'correct' answer and the other 'side' falling on their swords. Sometimes the end result of these sorts of discussions is that it turns out that there is more than one way that people are playing it, and it just becomes something to discuss with your opponent.

Seeing as GW has problems articulating how they wanted things to work as a general rule it seems what they were attempting to say in the original rules for the Skyshield was do so at the ladders. Does this make it hard to assault the Skyshield? Clearly. Far from impossible though. Before anything is said about hard to assault units I point to buildings. There is no way to assault a unit that is in a building unless you are in another part of the building, though obviously in the real world units inside of buildings are assaulted regularly. If they were going to treat a unit on the Skyshield as "embarked" onto it similar to a building/battlement then there would be no way to assault as you have to be in the same building. Buildings or vehicles are the only things with Fire Ports and Access points which would be why they had to be removed from terrain as there are no rules for dealing with them on terrain.

Short term fix: "To move onto or off of the landing pad a model must be moved to within 2" of one of the ladders and counts as moving though difficult terrain."

So you're suggesting that a land raider gets on and off via the ladders?

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why can you not stop in an area that the rules allow you to move through?

Because you can't place the model there. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

That's perfectly easy to understand. But irrelevant to someone who disagrees with your take on WMS.

WMS seems to indicate that you need to actually be able to place the model and that you need opponents permission.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
WMS seems to indicate that you need to actually be able to place the model and that you need opponents permission.

Yes, we've been over that. There is some disagreement that this is actually what WMS says, and common usage also goes against that interpretation.

 insaniak wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
WMS seems to indicate that you need to actually be able to place the model and that you need opponents permission.

Yes, we've been over that. There is some disagreement that this is actually what WMS says, and common usage also goes against that interpretation.

If theres still disagreement I'd say we haven't really been over it enough lol. Also just because the common usage of WMS is flat out wrong doesn't give that wrong usage a free pass. A comparison would be to say the world commonly used slavery for thousands of years; it must be right.

The common usage of WMS is not flat out wrong.

The rule states "Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want" P. 11

clearly it is hard to put a model "exactly where you want" when moving onto a Skyshield as there is nothing below the Skyshield to rest the model on.

In cases like this "we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location" P. 11

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can be in the center of the Skyshield, roll for DT and move through the floor off of the skyshield.

What rule allows you to do this? I know that Ruins work in this manner, but usually with terrain you have to move to the edge of a cliff and then move down. Why assume that moving onto/off of the Skyshield includes moving through the piece of terrain?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
If theres still disagreement I'd say we haven't really been over it enough lol. Also just because the common usage of WMS is flat out wrong doesn't give that wrong usage a free pass. A comparison would be to say the world commonly used slavery for thousands of years; it must be right.

Yeah, because slavery is totally a reasonable comparison to a game of toy soldiers...


We're talking about a game here. And in a game, common usage does give a 'wrong' interpretation a 'free pass'. If enough people play a rule a given way, then what the rule actually says becomes irrelevant... games will be played with the commonly used version regardless.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can be in the center of the Skyshield, roll for DT and move through the floor off of the skyshield.

What rule allows you to do this? I know that Ruins work in this manner, but usually with terrain you have to move to the edge of a cliff and then move down. Why assume that moving onto/off of the Skyshield includes moving through the piece of terrain?

The rule for the Skyshield, on page 115, that says "To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."

 DeathReaper wrote:
clearly it is hard to put a model "exactly where you want" when moving onto a Skyshield as there is nothing below the Skyshield to rest the model on.

Sigh. Once again, hard is not impossible.

Balancing a model on a rough bit of debris in a ruin is hard. It might take a while to get it balanced and you might have to keep putting it back every time someone bumps the table, but with enough effort it can be done.

Placing a model in midair below a Skyshield is impossible. No amount of effort will make it happen.

Conclusion: WMS does not cover models floating in midair.

 insaniak wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
If theres still disagreement I'd say we haven't really been over it enough lol. Also just because the common usage of WMS is flat out wrong doesn't give that wrong usage a free pass. A comparison would be to say the world commonly used slavery for thousands of years; it must be right.

Yeah, because slavery is totally a reasonable comparison to a game of toy soldiers...


We're talking about a game here. And in a game, common usage does give a 'wrong' interpretation a 'free pass'. If enough people play a rule a given way, then what the rule actually says becomes irrelevant... games will be played with the commonly used version regardless.

Hahahahahah........Sorry, I was just laughing at you. It's going to sound like I'm not taking you seriously but that's only because I'm not.

@DeathReaper It is difficult to rest a model on thin air. Its just like ascending levels in a ruin; if you roll a 2 to go up a level you don't get to be 1" from the destination. You can go from point A to point B, but you can't stop in the middle

It's also worth pointing out that ruins have a rule that models may only be placed where they can fit. A trygon not being able to fit between a second and third floor of a ruin means shockingly enough that it cannot be placed there, in the eyes of the wms = magic crowd that justs means you "wms" it, in the eyes of individuals with a stable hold on common sense it means you actually just cannot put your model there. Shocking stuff.

 Crablezworth wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that ruins have a rule that models may only be placed where they can fit. A trygon not being able to fit between a second and third floor of a ruin means shockingly enough that it cannot be placed there, in the eyes of the wms = magic crowd that justs means you "wms" it,

You keep saying this, and it's still not true.

WMS doesn't allow a model to go somewhere it is not allowed to go. If a rule says you can't place the model there, then you can't place the model there. WMS doesn't change that.

And this sort of nonsense:

in the eyes of individuals with a stable hold on common sense ...

Is not constructive. If you can not remain civil, I would recommend taking a break from the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Its just like ascending levels in a ruin; if you roll a 2 to go up a level you don't get to be 1" from the destination. You can go from point A to point B, but you can't stop in the middle

Except it's not just like ascending levels in a ruin, because it's not a ruin. You can't stop between levels in a ruin because the ruins rules specifically say you can't. That doesn't apply to anything that isn't a ruin.


Of course, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, I'm more than happy to apply the ruins rules to the skyshield, since that neatly fixes the assault issue by allowing you to assault models on the pad from the ground anyway.

 insaniak wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that ruins have a rule that models may only be placed where they can fit. A trygon not being able to fit between a second and third floor of a ruin means shockingly enough that it cannot be placed there, in the eyes of the wms = magic crowd that justs means you "wms" it,

You keep saying this, and it's still not true.

WMS doesn't allow a model to go somewhere it is not allowed to go. If a rule says you can't place the model there, then you can't place the model there. WMS doesn't change that.

What part of his statement is untrue? the part about models not being able to be placed where they can't fit? Or that you guys use wms as an excuse for not following the rules?

The 40k rules are not permissive. If the rules don't give you permission to do an action you can't do said action. Here's an example: the rules don't say I can stand up on the table and step on models. The rules also don't say you can float in mid air when trying to ascend a skyshield

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
What part of his statement is untrue? the part about models not being able to be placed where they can't fit? Or that you guys use wms as an excuse for not following the rules?

Since I just explained in the post you quoted which part I was referring to as untrue, this post is fairly blatant trolling. If the extent of your contribution is going to be to mark snarky remarks about interpretations you disagree with not following the rules, we're pretty much done here.


Consider this a last call for the thread. If the discussion can not be continued without the snark, the thread will be closed.

 insaniak wrote:
Except it's not just like ascending levels in a ruin, because it's not a ruin. You can't stop between levels in a ruin because the ruins rules specifically say you can't. That doesn't apply to anything that isn't a ruin.

You're right, the rules for ruins don't apply since the Skyshield is not a ruin. But it does suggest that GW doesn't like the idea of models counting as floating in midair, and that the explicit requirement in the WMS rules isn't a mistake.

(Not that you need the ruins rules, since the Skyshield is already covered by the lack of permission to count a model as being somewhere it can't be placed and the fact that you can't place a model in midair next to a Skyshield.)

Of course, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, I'm more than happy to apply the ruins rules to the skyshield, since that neatly fixes the assault issue by allowing you to assault models on the pad from the ground anyway.

Again, you're assuming that there is an issue at all when there isn't. Not being able to assault onto a Skyshield isn't a problem, just like not being able to shoot through LOS blocking terrain isn't a problem. Sometimes the terrain just blocks you from doing what you want to do.

 Peregrine wrote:
Not being able to assault onto a Skyshield isn't a problem,....

Not being able to assault when enemy models were filling an entire floor in a ruin wasn't really a huge problem either. And yet when people raised it as an issue, GW agreed and changed the ruins rules.

 insaniak wrote:
Not being able to assault when enemy models were filling an entire floor in a ruin wasn't really a huge problem either. And yet when people raised it as an issue, GW agreed and changed the ruins rules.

Sure, but that's a rule change in the context of an entire edition change, not a house rule. They are two very different things.

And, like I said, if you want to propose a house rule that you can assault onto a Skyshield (by whatever method) to fix the perceived problem, that's fine. I have no problem with you playing the game in a way that makes more sense to you, I only have a problem with your incorrect statements about how the rules as published by GW work (including WMS). Just admit that it's a house rule to change something you don't like and that's the end of it.