Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I Agree with Mortetvie, in the fact he should be allowed to give his side of the story and explain any misgivings you seem to harbour against him. He is not trying to Hi-Jack the thread, he wanted to ask what/why you think he did so bad to justify such a sour mood against him (Cur: Definition -a contemptible man). It doesn't matter that you didn't mention his name, HE knew you where talking about him and was understandably unset, yet has responded with nothing but polite and eloquent posts that said if it was such a big problem you should of made a bigger deal rather then simply talking about him behind his back.

Your Bias shows against him by use of the words 'Cut-Throat list', your in a tournament, why on earth would you expect nice ones? Then you have bloodfist taking the 'He said, She said' route which doesn't help anyone. Then earlier you say how when he WAS nice to you (Letting you do stuff you forgot) you almost took it condescendingly saying he already had the game, him being nice meant nothing. Which doesn't make sense. Bad press/reputation is a horrible thing to inflict on someone unjustly, as it colours other peoples view on them without knowing them. So I think you should apologies for 'slinging mud' at him and accept his apology that he is sorry for anything he did wrong, it was not intentional. Then you could get back to the real topic.

I think cheating should have no hard fast rules, because its simply to varied a field to have blanket rules. Local tourney and your 2pts over and you already played a game? talk it over, hopefully lose 2pts and be fine, instant expulsion isn't the way. Loaded Dice, expulsion. Moving to far? depends on how often, but the player should be able to handle it by watching closely. Rules query? Check rulebook or relevant FAQ, then ask TO if no compromise can be made.

It's pretty much this. We often see threads about how "X player was terrible" or "Gamestore employee sucked ass" and so many people want to hear the side of X player or Gamestore Employee. What we have here is a thread doing just that, and now he's being accused of hijacking and outing himself? Stay classy guys, you're wonderful.



In case it isn't obvious, "wonderful" does not actually mean you're wonderful. It means the opposite

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion both in terms of other players and how to handle certain matters. Furthermore, no matter how many of my friends get on here and say what a swell guy I am, I hardly think that would make a difference to the OP, his friends or really anyone else and it would be petty and immature.

As I mentioned, different players obviously feel different ways are appropriate for handling certain offences (as expressed in this thread). Ultimately, it is up to the TOs to determine the appropriate cause of action and I see no reason why abiding by a mutually agreed upon solution to a problem between players should warrant any further problems.

For me, if my opponent was found out to have been over points, I'd be perfectly willing to let them fix the problem in their list and play on. The automatic points over=forfeit idea is not automatically the best or only solution. Indeed, the OP and I came to such a mutually agreeable solution and we moved on-so why make a big deal about it later? I think it is only because I won the event as it was only after that took place that he decided to complain.

Furthermore, I happen to be friends with who my 1st round opponent was and he wouldn't have cared about the matter and would have been fine with me just fixing the points and playing on. Indeed, the 5 points I was over had no bearing on any of my games as the upgrade that bumped me up (lessor gift) was never used or even potentially useful in any of my games.

Therefore, once my second round opponent and I reached the aforementioned mutually agreeable solution and since I ended up playing my 2nd and 3rd game under points-I don't see what the big deal was.

once again, if it was THAT big of a deal to anyone-and both my 2nd and 3rd opponents were aware about my list and what took place to resolve the matter- they SHOULD have done/said something about it before it was too late and before I left the store.

 mortetvie wrote:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion both in terms of other players and how to handle certain matters. Furthermore, no matter how many of my friends get on here and say what a swell guy I am, I hardly think that would make a difference to the OP, his friends or really anyone else and it would be petty and immature.

As I mentioned, different players obviously feel different ways are appropriate for handling certain offences (as expressed in this thread). Ultimately, it is up to the TOs to determine the appropriate cause of action and I see no reason why abiding by a mutually agreed upon solution to a problem between players should warrant any further problems.

For me, if my opponent was found out to have been over points, I'd be perfectly willing to let them fix the problem in their list and play on. The automatic points over=forfeit idea is not automatically the best or only solution. Indeed, the OP and I came to such a mutually agreeable solution and we moved on-so why make a big deal about it later? I think it is only because I won the event as it was only after that took place that he decided to complain.

Furthermore, I happen to be friends with who my 1st round opponent was and he wouldn't have cared about the matter and would have been fine with me just fixing the points and playing on. Indeed, the 5 points I was over had no bearing on any of my games as the upgrade that bumped me up (lessor gift) was never used or even potentially useful in any of my games.

Therefore, once my second round opponent and I reached the aforementioned mutually agreeable solution and since I ended up playing my 2nd and 3rd game under points-I don't see what the big deal was.

once again, if it was THAT big of a deal to anyone-and both my 2nd and 3rd opponents were aware about my list and what took place to resolve the matter- they SHOULD have done/said something about it before it was too late and before I left the store.

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

Just a suggestion, but just leave the poor guy be, he made a mistake, and if you don't believe it, then go on and don't believe it. Keep those thoughts to PMs if it really matters that much. We are not here to discuss the past, but how to handle the future if something like this occurs again.

 mortetvie wrote:

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

Niexist, your post perfectly encaptulates the hostility and unjustified ill will regarding the matter.

You get the facts wrong yourself and then come out and conclusively demonstrate that your mind is made up I cheated without any proof.

Btw, dictionary.com has a good definition of cheating you might want to check out. Intentionallity in defrauding/knowingly doing something wrong is a requirement to cheating. But I guess you, who were not present and didn't see or hear anything first hand, can come to your own conclusions.

Besides, I don't need to be over points to win games or events-it makes no sense to purposefully and illegally squeeze in a useless upgrade to win an event (which can hardly be akin to taking steroids as an athlete)...I would not personally want to win an event because of some wargear I ilegally purchased but as it stands the upgrades made no difference in my winning anything-but I digress, I am greatful to all the readers/posters that see I am merely trying to politely give my side of the facts and I now leave it at that.

Niexist wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

Niexist,

Your viewpoints are very extreme. Someone makes an honest mistake and that is proof-positive that they are a cheater? Then almost every one who's ever played this game is a cheater as we all have made honest mistakes before, whether it be from ignorance of the rules, ignorance of someone else's codex or just a simple math error. Even the greats have made mistakes before. Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts. At the second Nova, he made a mistake in how he used Njal's Tempest of Storms. Does that make him a cheat? I don't think so.

Yes, mistakes like this should be penalized in a tournament setting, but how they are penalized is up to the TO of the tournament. If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case. After all, it is the TO and the reputation of his tournament that is at stake, not some person from the Internet who has nothing to do with the tournament itself. It's easy to proclaim absolutes from the net, but unless you actually have firsthand experience with the player in question, you really don't have any right to call someone a cheater without any proof. Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case.

No it isn't, because there are more than just two parties involved. Every single other player in the event has a right to complain because any wins obtained with an illegal list have an impact on their standings. As a TO you have no right to tell the person one spot below the person with an illegal list "sorry, they worked out a solution, better luck next time". You are obligated to remove the illegitimate wins as an absolute minimum, and failure to do so makes a joke of your "tournament".

Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

Just look at it this way: who is going to be stupid enough to admit to the TO or community that they deliberately went over the point limit? How exactly is a deliberate cheater's statement about the incident going to look different from a statement by someone who made an honest mistake? The answer is they're going to look exactly the same to anyone who can't read the offender's mind. And that's why you give automatic game losses, because you have no idea whether it was deliberate or not and you have to protect the integrity of the tournament.

Must be nice to live in such a black and white world...So what happens when one is over on points and loses. Furthermore the "cheat" only effects the players he/she plays against (unless the tournament is decided by battle points), and often times not even then.

Tournaments are about fun...not a bout legitimacy.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

These comments are hugely unfair, in the fact they are calling him out a cheat (a dishonest one too) and saying he shouldn't of taken the prize, even though they had already sorted the matter with the TO. The TO had made a decision to let him continue playing with a changed list, that's the TO choice. Its his tournament and you should abide by his choices and in calling him out as a cheat and a 'TFG' with no evidence other then hearsay shows massive bias and more then a little sour grapes.

When taking into account intent since when did we start with guilty until proven innocent? The TO should try everything his power to keep people in the tournament because that's why he is running, for people to play. Its counter productive to be expelling people for slights when I could easily be resolved in another way.

As to your 'Haters gonna Hate' comment...now your clutching at straws.

10pts.A good player would still win.That's what you've been fighting about.Really?

Bringing an illegal list is still bringing an illegal list. Sure, it may not be someone's intention to cheat (just like how Mike Wazowski won the Scare Games in Monster University... obscure reference!) but it doesn't change the fact that it is illegal. Sportsmanship-wise, if I found myself winning a tournament and discovered that I accidentally "cheated" (cheated here meaning "doing something against the rules of the tourney and the game", regardless of intention), I would've forfeited the prize and winnings.

There is no way of measuring someone's intention accurately. That is a fact. If someone is caught doing something illegal, how are we supposed to know that it's just an honest mistake? It may sound harsh, but I do think that it's part of your responsibility as a sportsman, gentleman/gentlelady and player to make sure that you are playing fair and square, and if you had an illegal advantage over your opponent, it is also your responsibility to correct that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

Just a quickie here; Tony's win was revoked from the 2010 NOVA due to the 3 points over. His prizes were offered to those he played against (aka, including the guy who came in 2nd), all of whom refused them on grounds he would have beaten them anyway. We still revoked his win. Don't get off on a tangent when you do n't have all the info required. Further, you know I run NOVA and am on this forum; if you're looking to just be ragey on the internet, that's cool; you could also just PM the organizer and share your displeasure.

PS - Also, just for good measure, those of us who know him personally have forever after referred to him as T-3PO; Tony-3 Points Over.

 mortetvie wrote:
Niexist, your post perfectly encaptulates the hostility and unjustified ill will regarding the matter.

You get the facts wrong yourself and then come out and conclusively demonstrate that your mind is made up I cheated without any proof.

Btw, dictionary.com has a good definition of cheating you might want to check out. Intentionallity in defrauding/knowingly doing something wrong is a requirement to cheating. But I guess you, who were not present and didn't see or hear anything first hand, can come to your own conclusions.

Besides, I don't need to be over points to win games or events-it makes no sense to purposefully and illegally squeeze in a useless upgrade to win an event (which can hardly be akin to taking steroids as an athlete)...I would not personally want to win an event because of some wargear I ilegally purchased but as it stands the upgrades made no difference in my winning anything-but I digress, I am greatful to all the readers/posters that see I am merely trying to politely give my side of the facts and I now leave it at that.

Again, no one knows what your true intent was besides you, and if you did purposefully cheat you will lie about it to the bitter end making posts just like the above one. Like my grandma used to say, a lie will cheat, and a cheat will steal.

Here is the difference between you, and I. If it was me, and I accidentally made a list that was over points, even if the TO's said it was okay just fix the list, I would've forefeited myself from all prizes, because ***I*** wouldn't feel right about it. The fact that you didn't do the same speaks volumes about your own character to me, and is a pretty good indicator of whether or not it was intentional.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case.

No it isn't, because there are more than just two parties involved. Every single other player in the event has a right to complain because any wins obtained with an illegal list have an impact on their standings. As a TO you have no right to tell the person one spot below the person with an illegal list "sorry, they worked out a solution, better luck next time". You are obligated to remove the illegitimate wins as an absolute minimum, and failure to do so makes a joke of your "tournament".

Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

Just look at it this way: who is going to be stupid enough to admit to the TO or community that they deliberately went over the point limit? How exactly is a deliberate cheater's statement about the incident going to look different from a statement by someone who made an honest mistake? The answer is they're going to look exactly the same to anyone who can't read the offender's mind. And that's why you give automatic game losses, because you have no idea whether it was deliberate or not and you have to protect the integrity of the tournament.

That's really between the TO and the players involved. You can sit here and spew out absolutes all you want, but you are not the TO of the game or involved with it in any way, shape or form.

The TO has the responsibility to resolve all matters of conflict with the players involved. Expulsion is one solution, though somewhat extreme. Forfeiture of games is another. Finally, so is removing the offending wargear. The TO is the person who has to decide any punishment to fit the crime and the other parties involved also have a say in the matter. The fact that the OP didn't bring up any objections at the time of the event and instead played on is acknowledgement that he accepted the TO's decision.

As for intent, that really is for the TO and players involved to divine. From the testimonies of the party involved, it doesn't appear to me that it was intentional but rather, a mistake. Then again, each person will form their own opinion, as a few in this thread has already done. Some may look at it as "he committed a crime, therefore he must be guilty." I look at it as "did he commit a crime or just a mistake?".

I believe that cheaters should be DQ'd, but only legitimate cheats. The whole "ten points over" is bothersome, and shouldn't be allowed in tourniment play, but there can definately be justified mistakes in play. I know I make them. If you are over, change your list as soon as you notice or it is pointed out to you. MARK IT ON YOUR LIST so you don't make that mistake again. As an opponent, make sure they do it so there is not excuse if they do it again.
Legitimate cheating (ie, painting extra pips on some dice so there are no ones or twos) should be instant DQ and ban: most players I know will just refuse to play them any more.

The most important rules are do your best, don't repeat the same mistakes if you can help it, and DONT WHINE IF YOU ARE CALLED OUT ON IT. You made a mistake: pony up and apologize, and don't try to justify it. Be gracious, and people will actually want to play you again.

For all those saying either

1.) Any mistake should lead to DQ

2.) If I made a mistake I would auto DQ myself

I would like to watch their games to make sure no mistakes were ever made.

What if you miss a morale check and it wins you the game...do you go back and forfeit?

Same thing....

Like I said, as a TO pre-check lists (doing it at the event is a little late.), and send them for corrections when they are wrong...it removes this need to DQ people who screw up.

I also find it interesting that we are only interested in punishing people when they win if they make a mistake.

If I am 100 points over and lose ever game....do you still care?

Or is a lot of this hey he screwed up and I didn't win so lets DQ him so I look better.

Well...true cheaters don't do it without reasons. Mostly, it is for the purpose of victory - and in a tournament where you reward the "best player", there will be people who will try to use all means so that they can win.

So, yeah, TO can try to be as harsh as they can if they have proofs that someone truly cheated, but that's something quite difficult to do in something that is, in fact, just a game. Most "bad situations" in an event are actually misunderstandings (the pressure of a competitive game can be such that it is easy to "suspect" the other player from trying to "fool" you to gain an advantage - some like to use the "psychological weapon" as well) or honest mistakes. There are of course cases of "untold truths" or other borderline situations that aren't technically cheating but still not really fairplay. It all depends of the morality of the player himself...and his point of view about the purpose of a game.

Another solution would be to remove the reasons to cheat/"win at all costs", like trying to make different events where victory isn't the sole purpose for players, but just the pleasure to play with others. No ranking of "the best players", rewarding all players instead of just the first on top, trying to reward other aspects of the Hobby, and so on.

Of course, that would mean not all players would be interested. But it's a fact most troublesome players tend to be the ones who are obsessed with winning over others - and generally, those are people who go to competitive tournaments.

Anyway, a cheater will never be able to go unnoticed forever. Sooner or later, they get caught - and retribution will eventually come to them. Trouble is all the fun they will take away from the players who played against them.

This thread has gotten kind of ridiculous.

We have two different sides to a situation. They both agree on certain points.

His list was over on points(One says 5, the other 10). The TO was brought over Game 2, and at that time the TO and players came to a mutually agreed solution, drop a single piece of wargear(Lesser Gift). The TO chose not to revoke wins, not to DQ the player, but merely bring their army withing points.

Their appear to be disagreement if he did or did not play the final game over on points.

Given the caliber of player involved, I am inclined to believe it was an accidental overage. Lets face it, Mortieve doesn't need 5 extra points to beat opponents. The rest of the responses seem like the OP whining about being beat in a tournament and latching onto a single point of contention to assault Mortieve. And yes, I believe the first post reads as an assault on Mortieve as many of the Cal playters are on this forums. I believe it was a passive aggressive attack and intentional.


Regardless, the TO made a ruling, it was final. Any complaints should be directed at said TO, not at the player as by all reports he accepted arguably fair decision of the TO.



Now, when things like this happen it needs to be brought to the TO and their ruling is final. If it is severe enough, loaded dice, etc there should be a DQ. But, for a minor offense and likely honest mistake I find the dropping of an upgrade or model suitable. Again, it is up to the players and TO.

How do you deal with points being over, and as a subset I would also say things like Force Organization mistakes, in national tournaments is normally an automatic forefit of games played with these types of mistakes. In local tournaments your T.O. is the final say, if you want to press to play like a national tournament and have absolutes in list building take it up with him, if you want to have other options other than negating wins/points than you have abide by what was decided.

Very few if any 40k games are played perfectly by both sides with absolutely no rules mistakes, measuring mistakes, or general gameplay mistakes, even tournament batreps often have comments in them such as "we played this wrong."

Intention can't be determined therefore there is a very easy litmus test to tell if somone is actually cheating. First call him out that what he is doing is wrong, if he agrees, or if he doesn't and you call a T.O. and the T.O. agrees than this sets a precident, if the person commits the same act later in the game, and or in another game than he is cheating as he has already been corrected but chooses to purposefully play incorrectly.

Aside from that its a mistake, plain and simple, people want to ascribe intentions to others mistakes but honestly you don't have a clue weather he knew better or not, so deciding he did know and or even worse, thinking he should have know speaks volumes about your charcter not his. A mistake that is reapted over multiple games is still a mistake.

As far as the specific instance presented it seems to me that your group of friends has gotten together and decided that mort deliberately played incorrectly multiple games with multiple opponents, the real question you should be asking yourselves is did anyone tell him that during your games, if so did he agree that what he was doing was wrong, and or was told by a T.O. that what he was doing was wrong, and lastly did he do it wrong again after he had agreed.

From everything posted so far that doesn't seem to be true in the case presented. Therefore mort could very easily had made mistakes, but there is nothing to say he cheated.

As to some people saying they would not take a prize if they had know they had made a mistake, thats a personal thing, which mistakes warrant taking youself out of the prize pool is a personal decision and you cannot ascribe what you would do yourself to another person.

Late to the party, but there is a history with Mortvie and I have personally gotten burned by trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He specializes in passive aggressive envelope pushing and then doubles down on the jesus talk when you call him out on it. He is the sole reason that there are now painting requirements at GE, but I will let others fill in the blanks on that one. Let me state that I went full circle, as I was someone who argued for others to give him a second chance and then watched him methodically and systematically cheat and exploit at numerous events over a long period. You name it, he has done it and more than one person can attest to this. What makes him a unique case is that he tailors his cheating and rules bending to whomever he is playing based on what he feels he can get away with, which pretty much verifies that it is intentional.

How bad is he? Well, he is one of three people I have ever played in two decades that I outright refuse to play again. The other two are an actual autistic guy who made physical threats against the wife of an organizer and a used car salesmen who shares his playbook (but is not as good at it), so he is among some esteemed company. How bad is he? At the tournament where I had finally had enough of his antics, I put a $100 bill down and said anyone who was willing to play him three times in the same weekend (as I had) could claim it. I had no takers. How bad is he? Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

What is debatable is what you do about someone like this. As an organizer, I think you basically need to grow a pair and toss people like this out or at the bare minimum, tell them upfront that they are on a short leash and will be punted after the first sign of shenanigans. Of course, the players have a responsibility to report this sort of thing because the TO cannot be everywhere at once, even when they know who the problem players are. At the last RTT I ran that Mort showed up, for example, he moved a guys minis when he went to the restroom. Three people saw him do it, but no one had the balls to say something until after awards were done and he left. A TO cannot do anything if the players do not help out on this.

But the short answer is, you boot cheaters and tolerate zero army list errors. To do otherwise, it to basically greenlight these sorts of things, and people like Mort are experts at taking that proverbial inch and running a hundred miles with it. Cheating is a rot that must be cut out judiciously like the cancer it is, or it will kill the community.

Hey, I thought I was on the short list of people you refuse to play Phazael....Gonna have to work harder the next time I see you!

I'm a bit surprised this thread hasnt been nuked yet.

To be clear, I dont think being a few points over on a list should result in a ban from an event. That's ridiculous, and that's not what happened here. The TO made a decision he thought was best for his community based on a long history, and I dont need to justify that any further.

The points issue was brought to the TOs attention immediately, but all of the other indiscretions combined are what led to action happening after the conclusion of the event. It wasn't until I had a chance to discuss with another player what all happened in the last two games did an obvious pattern emerge so saying I whined after the fact just doesnt make sense.

Acrimonious wrote:
I'm a bit surprised this thread hasnt been nuked yet.

To be clear, I dont think being a few points over on a list should result in a ban from an event. That's ridiculous, and that's not what happened here. The TO made a decision he thought was best for his community based on a long history, and I dont need to justify that any further.

The points issue was brought to the TOs attention immediately, but all of the other indiscretions combined are what led to action happening after the conclusion of the event. It wasn't until I had a chance to discuss with another player what all happened in the last two games did an obvious pattern emerge so saying I whined after the fact just doesnt make sense.

I am certainly in favor of this thread being locked at this point.

 Phazael wrote:
Late to the party, but there is a history with Mortvie and I have personally gotten burned by trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He specializes in passive aggressive envelope pushing and then doubles down on the jesus talk when you call him out on it. He is the sole reason that there are now painting requirements at GE, but I will let others fill in the blanks on that one. Let me state that I went full circle, as I was someone who argued for others to give him a second chance and then watched him methodically and systematically cheat and exploit at numerous events over a long period. You name it, he has done it and more than one person can attest to this. What makes him a unique case is that he tailors his cheating and rules bending to whomever he is playing based on what he feels he can get away with, which pretty much verifies that it is intentional.

How bad is he? Well, he is one of three people I have ever played in two decades that I outright refuse to play again. The other two are an actual autistic guy who made physical threats against the wife of an organizer and a used car salesmen who shares his playbook (but is not as good at it), so he is among some esteemed company. How bad is he? At the tournament where I had finally had enough of his antics, I put a $100 bill down and said anyone who was willing to play him three times in the same weekend (as I had) could claim it. I had no takers. How bad is he? Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

What is debatable is what you do about someone like this. As an organizer, I think you basically need to grow a pair and toss people like this out or at the bare minimum, tell them upfront that they are on a short leash and will be punted after the first sign of shenanigans. Of course, the players have a responsibility to report this sort of thing because the TO cannot be everywhere at once, even when they know who the problem players are. At the last RTT I ran that Mort showed up, for example, he moved a guys minis when he went to the restroom. Three people saw him do it, but no one had the balls to say something until after awards were done and he left. A TO cannot do anything if the players do not help out on this.

But the short answer is, you boot cheaters and tolerate zero army list errors. To do otherwise, it to basically greenlight these sorts of things, and people like Mort are experts at taking that proverbial inch and running a hundred miles with it. Cheating is a rot that must be cut out judiciously like the cancer it is, or it will kill the community.

That settles it. Mort, four guys now calling you out on being TFG in one thread with numerous parallels in their stories? You can claim "hearsay" or whatever other obfuscation you like, but that does it in my book. You are, for all intents and purposes, TFG.

Flat out, you would be banned from attending any event I put on. I'll be asking the guys offline who you are so I can know who to avoid.

How to handle cheating at 40k events? Ban guys like Mortvie. Simple. It's time the community got hard-nosed about this kind of nonsense. It's toy soldiers FFS. No place for cheating.

I wasn't going to post anything more but I'll just say this and leave it at that:

There are people that dislike me and how I play but never say anything to my face when anything comes up; then there are people that like me and enjoy playing me and have no problems.

With such a disparity and polarity in the community it makes one wonder where the problem really is. There seems to be a lens people want to see things through that colors everything I do.

If some models are shifted from people bumping into the table and I move the figures back to their original position, I'm moving my opponents models to cheat.

If I interpret a rule differently than them, I am gaming the system.

If I play a unit differently than they do I am cheating.

Every legitimate action can be misinterpreted and misconstrued. If there is a problem, it should be brought up immediately and to a TO, otherwise the inaction and subsequent complaining is just gossip.

Someone should not be banned for a reputation but for actual and specific instances as they arise.

No, Mort. Simply more obfuscation. You absolutely should be banned because of your reputation. And I am telling you right now you would not be welcome at any event I was hosting based solely on your reputation.

Why don't Acrimonious, Bloodfist, Overwatch, Thokt, Phazael, myself, or any other local players have four people now coming out of the woodwork to call us out on an odious pattern of in-person behavior?

I think you already know the answer, but I will spell it out - because you are guilty of said behavior on an ongoing and notorious basis. There are numerous witnesses to this fact.

Flat out, people like you need to be banned from local events and the community as a whole needs to stand up to people like you.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Hey, I thought I was on the short list of people you refuse to play Phazael....Gonna have to work harder the next time I see you!

Brad, you play rough lists and you play fluffy lists, but you have never done anything that even has a hint of unfair play and you are a great sportsman. But if you really want to get on my no fly list, then start bashing Favre and the Packers and we will work something out.....

 Phazael wrote:
Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

That is funny. Someone else at the tournament must have told you about that because I had forgotten it because it did not even register to me as an issue.

I want to say that I will play Mortetvie anytime, anywhere. He is one of the best players in So. Cal and I always want the challenge of playing one of the best.

We have had some issues in the past, but I never dwell on it and just move on.

Life it too short for too much aggravation over a game of 40k.