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Hey Reece:

The mat I'd most be interested in going for would potentially be the urban mat, but I have a question/suggestion. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer, but I wanted to bring it up.

From your video where you briefly mention the roads on the urban mat, I'm guessing you've already finalized the art for it? Because from what you said about the roads basically also doubling as a marker for the deployment zone in a 'popular miniatures game' it sounds like you have the roads basically running parallel to the long board edges about 12" from the edge.

If that's the case, then I'm guessing any 'grid' pattern you have created by the roads on the mat would basically be parallel/perpendicular to the edges of the table...which if you then set up buildings to match the roads you essentially get a grid that is 'in line' with the table.

I would beg/urge you to consider making the roads not run parallel and perpendicular to the edges, but rather make them run 'diagonally' so that if buildings are placed lined up with the printed roads that they are askew compared to the board edges.

I make this plea for two reasons:


1) 'skewed' city terrain (where the 'roads' do not run parallel and perpendicular to the board edges) creates a much better game experience. Because most games have you deploy either along the long or short board edges, when the grid pattern of all the buildings is parallel/perpendicular to the board edges, it means that right from deployment your guys have firing lanes (the roads) that run from one side of the board to the other, so without ever having to move they already have commanding firing positions.

When the city's grid pattern is skewed (so that it isn't parallel/perpendicular to the board edges) the 'firing' lanes created by the roads do not run directly across the table, but instead are diagonal (to the right and left) of where your opponent is deploying. That means players actually need to move to grab the most important firing lanes instead of being able to just deploy right into the best position.


2) Every single piece of modular terrain that contains roads, makes those roads run in a grid that is parallel/perpendicular to the board edges, because they want to give players the maximum amount of flexibility about how they can rearrange their city tiles to come up with different configurations, which means all the roads on those modular tiles basically has to leave running 'straight off' the edge of the tile. That makes every single one of those options a standard grid that as I've explained above is actually an inferior set-up for miniature gaming where players deploy along a board edge.

In your situation, since the road pattern is 'fixed' across the whole board, you have the unique opportunity really to buck the trend and make a table where the grid pattern is askew from the table edges, and thereby create city terrain set-ups that are actually superior to what you get using modular urban terrain tiles.


I know it is already probably to late to make this change (even if you agree with me), but I have to put it out there because it would make me an instant pledger. Because I actually already own plenty of 'table surface' for my gaming, but my modular terrain with roads on it has exactly the issue I've described above (it creates 'boring' cities where the roads run parallel/perpendicular to the board edges) that I hate. I would love, love, love to have a urban mat that was designed with an 'askew' road pattern, and I think other people would quickly grow to love it even if they didn't realize immediately why it is so superior to the 'standard' city table design.

I agree with Yak. That is the sort of board I have been longing for!

I add my voice for à 4x4 space mat!

UltraPrime wrote:
I agree with Yak. That is the sort of board I have been longing for!

Agreed. Make it happen Reece

UltraPrime wrote:
I agree with Yak. That is the sort of board I have been longing for!

+1.
He made excellent points. I would jump for a city map like that.

Especially if I could buy some ruins/buildings to go on it.

Wow, totally agreed with that suggestion as well. Now that would be tempting!

I second the suggestion to contact The Combat Company about aussie distribution.

 Reecius wrote:
Holy smokes, hahahaha, guys, the logo is TINY!

It is so small, no one playing on it has even noticed it. Not one, single person in the shop has noticed the logo unless we point it out to them. But different stroked for different folks, of course.

The designs are done, we are not removing the logo. Very sorry if that is a deal breaker for a few of you.

I'll make a final comment, Reecius, and then I'll back out.

I don't need one of these mats right now. I especially don't need to pay the shipping costs from the States when I live right next door to where you're manufacturing them and I'd rather wait to see if I can get them from a (possibly local) retailer at a discount, but to avoid accusations of being "one of those guys" (you know, the type with a huge opinion who wasn't going to buy anything anyway), I'll put my money where my mouth is.

You see, if you don't make a logo-free version now, you never will, and that means I'll never buy it in your Kickstarter or at retail in the future (which is when I'd actually prefer to get it). However, if you put up a logo-free option like someone above suggested for the grassland or the urban mat (preferably urban mat please - in the way Yakface described!), I'll pledge right away. In addition to getting my single miserable pledge, you'll get to see if there's actual real demand from people out there like me who don't want the logo or you'll find out if we're all full of hot air (and isn't that what Kickstarter is for? To take a chance without taking the financial risk?)

I do like your mats very much, and I hope they'll be very successful. Over the last few years I've come to much prefer mats over boards, and I think your product can bring something great to the market. It'd just be perfect without that logo

Final thoughts, thanks for reading.

Definitely agree with the diagonal road suggestion by Yakface.

 Reecius wrote:

Sigh. Hahaha, thanks for the sunny disposition and positive attitude!...Sorry to be rude in response to your rudeness, but you are way off and I am sure you can imagine that if this were your proejct you invested so heavily in terms of time, energy and money into, you would understand.

Reecius, you read WAY more negativity into my post than I had intended there to be and you clearly came away with the wrong idea, I probably need to work on my narrative voice. I was not saying your product is wrong/bad/crap. It was not a personal attack or a dig at your project. I pointed out that the Sabol Mats were very similar. I misremembered the material as being mousemat material apparently, but even so they still are very similar products aimed at the exact same target consumer: people willing to spend a fair bit of money for a product that functions EXACTLY like a green blanket but looks much better than just a green blanket.

The real point of my post, the one I hoped you'd draw from it and the one you still dismiss is this: There is a not-insignificant amount of people telling you that your logo is the only thing keeping them away from your product. I mentioned the Sabol mats not as a "it's been done already" and more as a cautionary tale from real experiences trying to sell it to actual gamers in a retail store. Yes, your logo is smaller ("TINY" as you keep pointing out). The logo is there, and it is starkly contrasted with the mat itself. Trying to convince us how small and unobtrusive it is will NOT work, we know it's there and it's all we can see, like a piece of food stuck in someone's teeth. The visual difference doesn't bother you at all and it doesn't bother everybody, that is clear (especially clear as the KS is about to fund). It bothers me and it bothers other people. Perhaps we are just a very small but vocal minority, but with Kickstarter we have 24 days to convince you to at least give us an option for a logo-less mat. Call it a "premium" mat and charge an extra $20 or something, but the target audience for a $95 high-res printed mat is slim enough as it is and the logos are flat-out costing you sales.



Also, +1 diagonal roads. Deployment zone roads are a nifty gimmick, but roads at a 30 degree angle are immensely more playable.

Guys, the logo will mean repeat sales. This is probably better than a few people worried about it.

I might have to jump in on this one... but I request a BIGGER logo

Sarcasm over:
Nice to see you on KS Reecius, very glad to jump in on this one as well.

 Makaleth wrote:
Guys, the logo will mean repeat sales. This is probably better than a few people worried about it.

How? Seriously.

Do people forget where they bought things and not know how to use google or speak to others?

Potential sales are better than actual sales? Don't get that logic.

 BarBoBot wrote:

How dare a company put its logo on its product lol

Seriously people....have you seen how small that logo is?

Pretty crazy isn't it?

I mean, I wouldn't want Levi's to stop putting on the red tab or leather 'badge' on my 501s. My Fred Perry t-shirts would be just t-shirts without the wreath logo...

Imagine Blood Angels without the winged blood drop?!

1) You don't like the logo. Cool.
2) They aren't going to remove it. Cool.
3) You won't buy it with a logo. Cool.
4) They are ok with you not buying it. Cool
5) Lets all let it go. Cool.

 Eggs wrote:
Ruglud, I can only speak for myself, but I spend many many hours of my life trying to make models and terrain look as real as possible. I don't then want to see any form of advertising on the playing surface. Kind of destroys the illusion.

If you're that concerned with your table being as realistic as possible, I can't help but think that a printed mat probably isn't really the product for you anyway...

 Azazelx wrote:
Do people forget where they bought things and not know how to use google or speak to others?

I have any number of things floating around my house for which I can't remember the name of the manufacturer, and I'm not about to bust out Google in the middle of a game when someone asks me where I bought something on the table. So yes, having the product branded is potentially a big deal.



I've played (quite a lot) of Star Wars Miniatures, which has maps that include gridlines, terrain boundaries, printed names for the main sections of the map, and a logo and copyright information in the bottom corner. After the first 5 minutes, you don't even notice it all, aside from when you specifically have to look at the grid. I can't recall ever sitting there thinking that having writing on the map spoilt the illusion... The guys running around with giant discs attached to their feet is far more likely to do that...


The product here looks fantastic. If I had cash to splash around on mini stuff at the moment, I would be all over it.

Hey, I'd have let it go at the first page. Since then I've just been responding to all the 'how dare you have an opinion that is different to mine' posts.

As I've said already, I wish the makers the best of luck. It looks like a quality product.

 Eggs wrote:
Hey, I'd have let it go at the first page. Since then I've just been responding to all the 'how dare you have an opinion that is different to mine' posts. .

Reading through the thread, I don't think most of the replies were so much 'How dare you?' as simply 'Seriously... what...?'

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Do people forget where they bought things and not know how to use google or speak to others?

I have any number of things floating around my house for which I can't remember the name of the manufacturer, and I'm not about to bust out Google in the middle of a game when someone asks me where I bought something on the table. So yes, having the product branded is potentially a big deal.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?

While true insaniak, and it'd be great to finally move on here, it should be clear by now that there are a decent number of people in that camp. I can totally see where they're coming from.

So how about those diagonal roads?

 Azazelx wrote:
Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?

If I don't remember who made it now, I'm not any more likely to remember the next time it happens to come up...

Seriously, this is being made into a bigger deal than it really is. Having your merchandise branded increases sales, because it makes it easier for people to find out who made the product. An easier sale is a more likely sale.

Sure, some people might prefer to not have the logo on there. But if having a tiny logo in the corner of your tabletop is really sufficient reason to not buy this, then I can only repeat what I suggested to Eggs... this probably just isn't the product for you. Go for a more 'realistic' textured board instead. If you're going to suspend your disbelief enough to be using a printed mat in the first place, having a logo on it should be a non-issue.




But yes, I'm all for diagonal roads. That's how I have almost always set up urban boards...

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Because if someone genuinely likes something enough to buy one of their own while playing a game at your house, it's not likely to come up ever again or ask you to check it out afterwards. Right?

If I don't remember who made it now, I'm not any more likely to remember the next time it happens to come up...

Like right after the game. Or checking it out on your phone. Or on the packaging.


As I said, I personally don't care either way - but the arguments "for" are pretty far fetched/weak.

Just for the record (since I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about exactly why people are bothered by the logo), we'd all be 100% fine with a great big TABLEWAR logo in 4-foot long lettering on the container/carrying tube. No issue there.

It's not the logo or act of branding that's the issue so much as the placement of it.

Kinda like if you bought a new TV and there was an area of dead pixels in the shape of the sony logo in one of the corners of the screen...

Anyway, looking forward to seeing the desert mat, I do want one of those at some point.

I think the matts look great and unlike the matt with the larger logo, this is small enough to fit almost any terrain piece over the top of it if you really want to hide it.

If you make a matt I like I'll buy it, logo or not.
Congrats on funding guys, looking forward to seeing what designs you come up with.

Awesome. 24 days to go and already funded.

Roughly $3,500 until Urban Combat is unlocked.

Is everyone on board with having diagonal streets?

 Dinamarth wrote:
Roughly $3,500 until Urban Combat is unlocked.

Is everyone on board with having diagonal streets?

Absolutely! Do you think it could be done both marking Vanguard deployment and still being aesthetically pleasing?

I hate marking out the deployment zones in that one.

Damn these kickstarters, tearing my wallet a new one !
Im going to have to be in for a few of these, I dont particularly like the logo but Its not a deal breaker for me, I can see why its there, and its really small anyway,
I can just cover it up if I do get pissed off with it, it doesn't really affect the realism for me, as someone already said, my Marines and whatnot are all already standing on a raised platform that is a different colour than the terrain a lot of the time anyway !

Now to decide which ones to get.

I'm actually in the camp that would like a mat that is only the Frontline Gaming and Table War logo