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Castellan Crowe because anything that can pile wounds onto him he just tanks with his rerollable 2+ armor and flame s them to death. Any big beatstick he just does his d3 attacks stamce then explodes after his inevitable death. Similar thing with Lukas the Trickster but can't deal with hordes.

Also to beat all those silly psykers I toss in the fiends of slaanesh and laugh as you hopelessly begin to peril more than you pass psy tests. And since they are running on a 3+ from those slaanesh heralds in the unit and are rerolling to hit vs them since theres the exalted loci and possible invis from all the heralds and their lvl2 (albiet only ld8)

Smashfether all the way in terms of damage output. Strangely enough, he also has the best force multiplying ability of all the beatsticks (bikes as troops).

Belakor is definitely a better all around choice, though. Too bad he'll die from shooting really quickly.

Lucarikx

 Kain wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

The Primarchs bend over and violate just about any non-primarch characters without lube.

Notice I said "40K".

 Lucarikx wrote:
Smashfether all the way in terms of damage output

A Black Templars Marshal on bike with Shield Eternal instead of the Gorgon's Chain has rerolls in challenges and will thus have a better damage output. The IH CM is good because he can take insane amounts of punishment and still have decent output, not because he's got the best offense. A Juggerlord or Abaddon will easily put out much more offensive power, as will Skarbrand and the Swarmlord.

Lord of Sculls? Or is he fw. Imperial knight than. S: D and stomp.

 koooaei wrote:
Lord of Sculls? Or is he fw. Imperial knight than. S: D and stomp.

I would guess that a lot of escalation stuff would of course come out on top if you were to count it.

Not imperial knights however. A Daemonprince or a wraithknight can potentially take one down in one turn without taking any damage. There is a risk sure, but with AV13 and no saves in cc, they are not the toughest of opponents when lined up against the heaviest hitters in 40k.

I'd say the transcendent C'tan ws6 t9 w6 i5 a8 all at ap2 3+ with 4++ and FNP, stomps, give him storm of heavenly fire and that is a s6 ap3 hit ignores cover at the end of his move phase. after he dies everything within 4d6 take s10 ap2 hit. plus you get the gargantuan stuff on him too

Eh I'd say that super heavies and gargantuan creatures shouldn't be factored here. That opens up a whole different can of worms...

GoliothOnline wrote:
I also like a simple Daemon Prince with the Black Mace. People tend to think he's a pushover because he's a CSM Daemon Prince and not from Codex Daemons. My god though, those rolls of 6s for Toughness Tests... Scare EVERYTHING.

I've Removed Ghazz' from play multiple times just because of 1 bad roll of 6. Gotta love it. Course, I've also lost plenty of Daemon Princes to zoggy and his squig ability!

the problem with the CSM DP is he is so fragile, much more so than Belakor. Just a 5++ save and no EW. Yes he can remove stuff from the game, but it's a gamble.


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 A GumyBear wrote:
Castellan Crowe because anything that can pile wounds onto him he just tanks with his rerollable 2+ armor and flame s them to death. Any big beatstick he just does his d3 attacks stamce then explodes after his inevitable death.

Any big beatstick is going to ignore his armor save and then when Crowe makes his heroic attack he has to hit(which can be difficult)

Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

 herpguy wrote:
Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

Unlikely, but anything can happen.

 herpguy wrote:
Yeah the black mace prince has the potential to kill anything in the game before it can swing. However it is far from guaranteed and he can easily be killed by any MC. It's sad to say but a Riptide will probably kill a Daemon Prince in close combat...

With a lower initiative, weapon skill, and attacks characteristic I don't see this happening enough to be anything but anecdotal.

A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

For ICs Abaddon is the best with only the Raukaan Chapter Master and a couple others able to touch him.
For straight up infantry units, even though it's very inefficient, 30 DC with Hammers and Claws are the best.
For single units overall Be'lakor is the best because of his powers followed by Skarbrand then Abaddon.

 herpguy wrote:
A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

Well first of all, with three smash attacks on the charge and hitting on 5's, that Riptide is hitting one of three attacks.

Assuming one attack hits, it's then got an 83% chance to wound with a 66.7% chance of the wound going through and ending the Prince. So if the single attack gets through, I'm at a 55.3% chance for the DP to bite it. Assuming it's not Tzeentch, the Riptide charges, and the Riptide lived through the DP's attacks.


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A mace DP, by the by, rocks 5+D6 attacks, 6+D6 on the charge, does not have to smash (fleshbane), and hits on 3's. So that Riptide had better have a nova charged invul and FNP if it wants to live.

12 attacks hitting on 3s = 8 hits, wounding on 2s = 6.67 wounds, 5+ invulnerable = 4.44 unsaved wounds, Feel No Pain = 2.96 wounds

Your standard Riptide is only going down to a Black Mace Daemon Prince around 17% of the time, due to the Black Mace, while the Riptide has a much higher chance of killing the Daemon Prince.

I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

Three 1's, and two 2's to hit later, and a successful riptide kick to the face, I removed the DP from the table.

Unexpected result do happen, and riptides are no slouches in cc when put up against the right targets (Expensive multi wound T5 models/ Tanks).
Daemon princes are good, but they really need iron arm if they are going to go toe to toe with the heavy hitters, if not then they need serious buffing through invisibility, prescience and grimmoire to have a chance.

MCs are a common enemy for me, and princes are not reliable for the task of removing them. This is a large reason as to why I favour bringing a LoC along in my lists.

Now, as previously said, a DP will destroy everything when fully buffed and lucky enough to get all he needs (this applies to CSM DPs rolling for psychic powers too).
For the purpose of this thread I would rate the DP better than the lord of change in terms of potential. In a TAC list, I use LoC more often however, as they are less reliant on luck.

 herpguy wrote:
A Riptide has a ~46% chance to kill a daemon prince outright on the charge and 36% if not. A daemon prince has a much much lower chance of killing a riptide. That's far from anecdotal.

yeah the prince will very rarely do 6 wounds to it in one round, even if the 3++ isn't up, so it is depending on the mace to proc.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

For future reference it is not possible to multi-charge with a single model, as the first model moved does not have permission to move into base contact with any unit except the primary unit chosen for the charge (second and subsequent chargers have permission).

DP doesn't *always* strike first. Avatar, for instance, will strike first (and hits on 3s).

Smash is just rediculous against t5 and under, IMO.

I heard they were removing the double strength Smash rule but retaining MCs AP2 attack modifier.

Would be nice to not totally break non combat rolls of pure luck on a 220 point riptide vs a 350+ Daemon Prince losing out to a smash attack. Or for that matter a Riptide smashing a Landraider. Some gak just doesn't make sense.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I heard they were removing the double strength Smash rule but retaining MCs AP2 attack modifier.

Would be nice to not totally break non combat rolls of pure luck on a 220 point riptide vs a 350+ Daemon Prince losing out to a smash attack. Or for that matter a Riptide smashing a Landraider. Some gak just doesn't make sense.

Just picture the rip tide jumping on the land raider. Its fat enough to cause a S10 hit

Gonna throw some BA love out there, for 125 points i get AV 13 3 A at S10 WS6 and I4, AP2 (meaning most things that can hit back can only wound on a 5+, and only after he gets hit first),

and for 175 i get all that plus the ability to use a S7 PA FW to ID non-EW T6+ fighters at AP 2 (walkers ignore unwieldy), and throw in Might of Heroes (+D3 attacks) and Wings of Sanguinius (makes it jump infantry) and at a decent chunk less points than any of those other IC's, ignores ID, causes ID at initiative, immune to anything under s7, near immune to s7,

Sure, it might be 1-shot luckily on a pen, but most of the things that are a real threat have to wither through its attacks. not saying its the best, but most certainly up there and for considerably less points. Hell i can get two non-libby versions for the price of abbadon or the avatar.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've lost a DP to a riptide before. He was my warlord, and had instant death due to his warlord trait (Choas Daemons), and also had fleshbane due to a greater gift, so I thought it was a guaranteed win for me.
I multi charged a unit of firewarriors too, as I hoped to sweep them all. 5 Attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with a 5++ save to stop me. All I needed was one wound to wipe them all...

For future reference it is not possible to multi-charge with a single model, as the first model moved does not have permission to move into base contact with any unit except the primary unit chosen for the charge (second and subsequent chargers have permission).

Yeah I missed part of the story out as I didn't want it to be too long. I had another daemon prince charge the firewarriors first and was able to engage them all. The warlord DP charged the firewarriors after that, and was able to get into contact with the riptide. The second DP did take down the riptide in the following turns, however I had already lost out points wise, and given away my Warlord point.

I do hope the smash rules are changed. They do seem a little too powerful atm, and this is coming from someone why plays Daemon lists filled with MCs. Str 10 monstrous creatures which reroll armour pe rolls are so powerful vs vehicles. Any MC and his dog can rip and tear through a landraider right now. Dreadnoughts don't stand a chance either, and that's a shame.

When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

A soul grinder is 170, and I wouldn't want my ones going anywhere near MCs. I just wish walkers could pose some semblance of a threat to those opposing team's big guys.

I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

Good for you. MCs still hold the advantage, random chance aside. An unfair one at that. Str 10 for MCs would be ok. A higher strength and re-roll would also be ok, but having both makes going near them with any vehicle a very one sided affair.

Kharn the betrayer.

Because...BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
When you're spending 200+ points on a Dreadnought I'll feel sympathetic.

A soul grinder is 170, and I wouldn't want my ones going anywhere near MCs. I just wish walkers could pose some semblance of a threat to those opposing team's big guys.

forgefiends and defilers are here too.


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 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've had Soul Grinders kill my MCs in close combat.

Good for you. MCs still hold the advantage, random chance aside. An unfair one at that. Str 10 for MCs would be ok. A higher strength and re-roll would also be ok, but having both makes going near them with any vehicle a very one sided affair.

some MCs having str10 isnt a problem, its all MCs having it, even the 'shooty' MCs. All walkers dont have str10 AP2, but all MCs do.