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 Kain wrote:


LET'S ALSO MAKE THE MOST VARIABLE AND ADAPTABLE ARMY IN FLUFF ONE OF THE MOST RIGID AND UNFLEXIBLE IN THE ACTUAL GAME.

/sarcasm.

I mean they also like to make CSM, a truly chaotic and variable army into monobuild nurgle with helturkeys. Maybe it's by design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:


LET'S ALSO MAKE THE MOST VARIABLE AND ADAPTABLE ARMY IN FLUFF ONE OF THE MOST RIGID AND UNFLEXIBLE IN THE ACTUAL GAME.

/sarcasm.

I mean they also like to make CSM, a truly chaotic and variable army into monobuild nurgle with helturkeys. Maybe it's by design.

Here here.

Or though I am attempting to write a Nid army, having not bough ANY models, and you have kinda put a downer on it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exalted also

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:


LET'S ALSO MAKE THE MOST VARIABLE AND ADAPTABLE ARMY IN FLUFF ONE OF THE MOST RIGID AND UNFLEXIBLE IN THE ACTUAL GAME.

/sarcasm.

I mean they also like to make CSM, a truly chaotic and variable army into monobuild nurgle with helturkeys. Maybe it's by design.

Meanwhile an Imperial player essentially has battle brothers level access to a third of the armies in the game.

Just when I thought GW was getting better about having the Imperium hog the spotlight.

I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

 Spellbound wrote:
I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

That's a hilariously inefficient way to kill a land raider as far as points go.

My Mono-khorne armies have it even worse. Mono-Khorne daemons especially. But GW seems to want to sweep the fact that the Chaos Gods hate each other more than anything else under the rug as they go out of their way to discourage mono-god builds.

You know, because Khornate daemons fighting side by side with the Daemonettes of Slaanesh without the slightest of tensions in any but the most extraordinary of circumstances is so true to the lore.

 Spellbound wrote:
I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

I was comparing two relatively equally priced units, as far as I'm aware Tyranids have the same amount of points in a given game as their opponent, so for those extra 200 points of models your opponent also has another 200 points of models.

Also, those 4 turns don't include the two turns it takes to actually get into combat, so it's actually more like 6 turns, provided the Land Raider just sits there and nothing shoots your Hive Tyrant.

 Kain wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

That's a hilariously inefficient way to kill a land raider as far as points go.

The sad part is it's also the best we can do short of 6" move units getting into close combat with Crushing Claws/native Strength 9.

 Kain wrote:

GW needs a good kick in the pants and a serious rethink of it's business practices and how it handles it's games. Because it's bad for all three aspects of the Franchise, it's bad for the game for reasons that are obvious, it's bad for the hobby because GW keeps on dialing up the prices without end in sight (I remember when they said that when they switched from metal to plastic that the savings would be passed to the consumer, oh GW you comedians you) and let's them think they can get away with grotesquely overcharge for basic modeling tools, and it's bad for the lore as it's constantly twisted and contorted to promote the new must buy items in 40k.

So yes, I will continue to bad mouth GW, I will do it everywhere I can find listeners, I will get my friends to do it, I will spread the word, and there are others who are similarly sick and tired of the downhill turn GW has taken. Sooner or later, GW's practice of wringing every last dollar out of it's increasingly stagnating consumer base will backfire. My hope is that it happens sooner so GW can finally open it's eyes and see the cliff it's driving towards. Or perhaps drive all the way off the cliff and crash into the ravine below so that someone can wrest Warhammer from it's corpse.

This is so much true. In this moment the only thing to look forward is when Hasbro buys GW, tries to revive WH40k and sells GW staff as slaves somewhere on Somalia.

OR you could you know, ignore it.

If you are bad at something than just dont do it.

Land raiders do feth all for damage, if the guys inside are charging then it means they are out in the open.

Either way it doesnt involve doing anything to the land raider. Hell us it as a slingshot if it gets too close.

Monoliths you are still fighting necrons, once again not a big deal.

Play to the mission, design your lists for what they are good at and mitigate your weaknesses where you can.

Smash needed to be nerfed because it basically made it so the only characters you could take needed to have eternal warrior.

But on topic I am excited for mauler fiends and walkers in general. It will be nice to try and see if I can get them on the table and make them work. My clan raukaan spam list might actually survive for a turn.

Anyone see if the restriction on repairing allied vehicles is still in?

I don't think you understand that Land Raiders are scoring now, and cannot be contested by non-Troops units if taken as a dedicated transport for Troops. So in order to play the mission against someone with multiple Land Raiders you're going to have to be able to take them out, not ignore them.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

I was comparing two relatively equally priced units, as far as I'm aware Tyranids have the same amount of points in a given game as their opponent, so for those extra 200 points of models your opponent also has another 200 points of models.

Also, those 4 turns don't include the two turns it takes to actually get into combat, so it's actually more like 6 turns, provided the Land Raider just sits there and nothing shoots your Hive Tyrant.

 Kain wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
I love comparisons in a vacuum.

"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"

You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?

That's a hilariously inefficient way to kill a land raider as far as points go.

The sad part is it's also the best we can do short of 6" move units getting into close combat with Crushing Claws/native Strength 9.

Also Zoanthropes "getting a shot off" when all psychic abilities are going to suffer the tremendous unreliability problems witchfires have and have only 18 inches of range, no way of crossing the board quickly, and only toughness 4, two wounds and a 3++ save isn't particularly likely.

Warp lance was iffy when it was AP1, it's going to be iffy as hell at AP2 with dispell dice and deny the witch flying out the ass in 7e now that brotherhood of psykers turned out to be a secret nerf to cut down a Tyranid army's potential power dice to a third (but Daemons, Grey Knights, Guard, and Eldar are all apparently A-okay.)

I also like the double standard of Imperial players being able to endlessly whine and complain about how much their army sucks or how land raiders are bad or how terrible it must be to be them and how there's no strong builds for them with nary a rebuke, but the moment a Chaos or Xenos player opens their mouth to do the same the community jumps down their throat.

Often from people playing the other Chaos or Xenos armies.

You know, if GW is going to continuously switch whether Chaos and the Xenos dominate one edition or if the Imperium dominates another edition they may as well just cut out Chaos and the Aliens from 40k and spare us all the constant yo-yo ride.

 Kain wrote:

You know, if GW is going to continuously switch whether Chaos and the Xenos dominate one edition or if the Imperium dominates another edition they may as well just cut out Chaos and the Aliens from 40k and spare us all the constant yo-yo ride.

What do you think 30k is for?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't think you understand that Land Raiders are scoring now, and cannot be contested by non-Troops units if taken as a dedicated transport for Troops. So in order to play the mission against someone with multiple Land Raiders you're going to have to be able to take them out, not ignore them.

Everything is scoring right now. Literally a spawned unit of termagaunts can stop that super scoring land raider from scoring. If it is not a troop land raider than those termagaunts will actually claim if that land raider is there.

I would not worry about it too much. I am not good at dealing with large numbers of fliers with the armies I have. Do I sit around trying to ineffectively deal with them or do I just play to my strengths and focus on other things?

Playing to one's strengths would be an excellent strategy if 6E Tyranids actually had any strengths other than Flyrant spam and the, as Kain said, Pay-to-Win DLC.

I have been watching battle reports that disagree among competative players.

However if that is the stance you wish to stick with far be it from me to stop you.

Then again I used to win with a warrior themed list back in fifth against missile spam and blood angels so.

 Leth wrote:
I have been watching battle reports that disagree among competative players.

However if that is the stance you wish to stick with far be it from me to stop you.

Then again I used to win with a warrior themed list back in fifth against missile spam and blood angels so.

An anectdote from a person of note is still an anectdote.

I'm only interested in empirical evidence and empirical evidence shows that the Tyranids are low tier.

FMC spam is their only really strong feature.

Everything else is overly situational, like take the Haruspex for example; it's poor weight of attacks and WS rating means that it is incapable of chewing it's way through a horde unit, but it's strength value means it's no good against vehicles either, while it's WS and lack of an invulnerable save also precludes it from being a monster hunter either, but the WS value again prevents it from going after elites. So what's left for it to do? Chase after poor WS MSUs without invulnerable saves? Even Eldar aspect warriors aren't that overly narrow in their target band.

Furthermore, the lack of substantial options makes most Tyranid units lorebreakingly inflexible despite being the most mutable and adaptable faction in-universe. .

But of course GDubs will induce heavy handed and hamfisted retcons whenever it feels like it to sell more models. Because they don't care one iota for the setting and background beyond it being a profitable liscense, source of supplementary income and advertising vehicle.

No artistic passion exists in GW anymore outside of it's model sculpting department (and the existence of the heinously ugly Taurox seems to suggest even that's fading). All that's left is callous greed and rampant sloth.

To reward them with your money is to reward them for becoming everything a gaming company shouldn't be.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.

Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.

Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.

Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...

Yeah, I thought the whole "oh no, Krak Grenades destroy Dreadnoughts" thing was a little overblown, but the Internet seemed to think it was a huge deal at the time.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.

Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.

Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.

Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...

Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.

Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.

 Kain wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.

Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.

Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.

Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...

Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.

Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.

Fire warriors almost never BUY the upgrade that gives them haywire grenades (its 2 points per model, not THAT cheap), and your chance to hit anything is usually 5+, meaning only third of the attacks even hit. for a strict anti-vehicle upgrade.
On an army with zero assault transports, a unit with no real mobility enchanting abilities (pathfinders can scout, but trying to assault with that would be silly as they are even MORE fragile) having your T3 Sv4+ guys charging a walker that hits you first, and is likely to overwatch with a heavy flamer or the sort...SO OP, an anti-tank upgrade MIGHT give you a fighting chance against a walker! (just to factor it in, 12 fire warriors assualting a dread, lets go easy and say only 3 die to combined overwatch and punching, it means 9 throw grenades, 3 hit. just barely killing a dread. with a more expensive unit equipped to take down tanks in CC.)

Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?


Everyone, quick, lets never take a walker, there are units who can kill them, if specifically equipped for it.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?

Wyches are dedicated melee that are supposed to beat infantry, but because of the 6th edition changes cannot be used in that capacity. They get the same haywire grenades for 2 ppm, making them 12ppm and are used to go after tanks.

If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.

Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.

Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.

Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...

Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.

Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.

Fire warriors almost never BUY the upgrade that gives them haywire grenades (its 2 points per model, not THAT cheap), and your chance to hit anything is usually 5+, meaning only third of the attacks even hit. for a strict anti-vehicle upgrade.
On an army with zero assault transports, a unit with no real mobility enchanting abilities (pathfinders can scout, but trying to assault with that would be silly as they are even MORE fragile) having your T3 Sv4+ guys charging a walker that hits you first, and is likely to overwatch with a heavy flamer or the sort...SO OP, an anti-tank upgrade MIGHT give you a fighting chance against a walker! (just to factor it in, 12 fire warriors assualting a dread, lets go easy and say only 3 die to combined overwatch and punching, it means 9 throw grenades, 3 hit. just barely killing a dread. with a more expensive unit equipped to take down tanks in CC.)

Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?


Everyone, quick, lets never take a walker, there are units who can kill them, if specifically equipped for it.

Wyches are meant to be dedicated anti-MEQ and horde killing assault infantry. They're essentially everything Banshees should be.

They're only used as anti-vehicle units as well as Horde and Marine choppers because they have haywire grenades and are dirt cheap.

Their anti-vehicle ability is simply a little something extra.

They're used to go after tanks, despite being in an army that has access to massive quantities of S8 AP2 Lance fire on Fast platforms.

In addition to being bad at their job, they're extremely redundant.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
They're used to go after tanks, despite being in an army that has access to massive quantities of S8 AP2 Lance fire on Fast platforms.

In addition to being bad at their job, they're extremely redundant.

5-10 haywire hits at dark eldar level WS kills any vehicle dead.

They would be used for assaulting infantry more, but 6e hates Assault's guts (overwatch is nasty when they're that squishy) and 7e looks like it hates assault even more.

 minigun762 wrote:
If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.

 Kain wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.

AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.

Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.

Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.

The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.

I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.

KoS do not have access to Biomancy, but to Telepathy.
Now, Slaanesh DPs with Iron Arm and a Lash of Despair... 12" S9 Assault 2d6. Or with a Witstealer sword and Iron Arm + Warp Speed (8 attacks at S9 AP2 Rending)

Nurgle (GUO or DPs) with Warp Speed (Iron Arm is good as well) and a Plague Sword are interesting AT as well (Touch of Rust)

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.

Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.

minigun762 wrote:If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

You know what's not forging a narrative?

An aspect of war and rage or a ferocious genetically engineered Bio-titan feebly slapping away at a stumpy legged metal box.

Since GW is so obsessed about FORGING DER NARRATIVE HURRR.

Vector Strike wrote:

 Kain wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.

AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.

Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.

Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.

The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.

I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.

KoS do not have access to Biomancy, but to Telepathy.
Now, Slaanesh DPs with Iron Arm and a Lash of Despair... 12" S9 Assault 2d6. Or with a Witstealer sword and Iron Arm + Warp Speed (8 attacks at S9 AP2 Rending)

Nurgle (GUO or DPs) with Warp Speed (Iron Arm is good as well) and a Plague Sword are interesting AT as well (Touch of Rust)

I did say native S8-10.

And right, thanks for that.

 minigun762 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.

Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.

Genestealers aren't cheap (and don't have much use), and while a Warrior Prime is a cheap HQ, it's not cheap enough to be a tarpit-enabler for a Dreadnought.

 minigun762 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops

Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.

Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.

14 points or more per (oh so very squishy) for something much cheaper Daemonettes do just as well if not better.

This is what tar-pits are made of.

/Sarcasm.

You're giving GW far too much credit and assuming they have any idea what balance is.