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It never ceases to amaze me just how different GW and PP operate. PP models are roughly the same price as GW's (officially, every FLHS in my area knocks off 10-20% of the price) yet PP seems to actually give a damn about balanced rules and customer satisfaction.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me just how different GW and PP operate. PP models are roughly the same price as GW's (officially, every FLHS in my area knocks off 10-20% of the price) yet PP seems to actually give a damn about balanced rules and customer satisfaction.

Indeed, this is a major difference between PP and GW.

PP also provides a core rule set in terms of a four-page flyer for the battle starter boxes.

GW is about 16 desperates.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the shops aren't working the other way of selling is by word of mouth. However GW have spent the past five+ years annoying swathes of veterans, driving them away from the games and convincing them to actively promote rival systems.

It's not just annoying veterans, it's the combination of prices and quality of rules too. I have a couple of friends who are not into 40k, but would probably be interested. But I'm not gonna go and sucker them into dropping £500 on an army for a game that's pretty meh. I'd feel like a grade A donkey-cave. Compared to the Warmachine, where I see the group at my club super excited about it and always offering to put me down for some stuff when they make group orders, or offering to teach me how to play, or bringing other mates to the club with them to try out the game... Yeah...

knas ser wrote: Are stores actually franchises or do GW own them and just have the manager as a straight employee?

The shops are not franchises, and the managers are employed directly by GW.

 Thud wrote:
It's not just annoying veterans, it's the combination of prices and quality of rules too. I have a couple of friends who are not into 40k, but would probably be interested. But I'm not gonna go and sucker them into dropping £500 on an army for a game that's pretty meh. I'd feel like a grade A donkey-cave. Compared to the Warmachine, where I see the group at my club super excited about it and always offering to put me down for some stuff when they make group orders, or offering to teach me how to play, or bringing other mates to the club with them to try out the game... Yeah...

This. While I love 40k lore and own 6000 points of orks, a gaming table with terrain et all, I would not encourage any of my friends to start as well. I'd rather suggest starting Warmahorde with them.

It is amazing what you can do with £500 in a lot of other games.

Ditto, I encourage malifaux over any GW game

WayneTheGame wrote:
Personally I don't think they are "desperate" just narrow minded and arrogant.

That's my interpretation.

 Melissia wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Personally I don't think they are "desperate" just narrow minded and arrogant.

That's my interpretation.

I think this is correct.

Who should be desperate at GW? The Ceo, the game designer, or the red shirts? No one is I guess at the moment.

.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
very desperate. I recently came back, spend several hundred doallars on models and rules to learn that 6 weeks later a new edition will be out and the majority of models i bought for my previously large csm force turned out to be crap or considered outright cheese. The whole experience is leaving me contemplating either quiting again or starting a eldar or high elf (ive been told fantasy is more balanced idk) army from from china instead of GW. I feel ive given this company enough considering what ive gotten in return.

Pump and dump. They've gotten what they wanted from you.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
The whole experience is leaving me contemplating either quiting again or starting a eldar or high elf (ive been told fantasy is more balanced idk) army from from china instead of GW. I feel ive given this company enough considering what ive gotten in return.

It's come up on a couple of occasions that it is frequently dissatisfaction with GW and their behaviour, rather than price, that drives people to ahem, "import" their models.

I do believe it has been shown in other markets that people are reluctant to pirate as long as they feel they're getting a decent product, honestly priced, so with the strong feeling against GW's pricing structure as well as other factors that is often expressed by multiple individuals, one has to wonder how much they're losing to third parties, whether that be recasters or legitimate third party alternate model makers.

people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.

 Sir Arun wrote:
people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.

And losing every game because you picked the wrong faction or units isn't any fun either. It's not about competitive vs fluffy it's about some units being outright garbage in either kind of list.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.

And losing every game because you picked the wrong faction or units isn't any fun either. It's not about competitive vs fluffy it's about some units being outright garbage in either kind of list.

I disagree.

There are, of course, massive disparities in power level between various units and books, but I do subscribe to the opinion that one should collect an army that one feels excited and passionate about doing so. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but the notion of collecting/purchasing a set list/army seems a relatively new idea, and yes, if one buys a list to capitalise on the new hotness, one doesn't have a huge right to gnash and wail when a new edition or codex invalidates it.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for every single unit in my collection to be a viable choice, if not in any list, at least in one designed to capitalise on it's strengths, but, for all the things I disagree with in matters GW, I do believe the 'right' way to collect an army is to choose one that you have some connection to, and build a collection of models (not necessarily GW models) you love. Not only do I feel that is a more rewarding and creative way of building a force, but it also insulates you from the pendulum swings of the ruleset.

Now, I'm sure there are people who can only afford a set amount of models, and are naturally going to try and get the best bang for their buck, but outside of a competitive environment, "bad" units often aren't so bad (broken remains broken, but that's a different issue) and if you're trying to play 40K competitively on a limited budget, then you're already on to a loser.

While I agree that any army/faction/codex is somewhat playayble, I do not agree to this on a unit basis.

As you pointed out, the riptide is an extremely powerful choice and is broken on all levels of competitiveness. I know a fluff player who reserved his single riptide to his display case, because he fealt it unfair and invalidating all his stealth suits.

But, on the same page, there are units that will always misably fail at whatever they try to do.

A prime example of this are banshess. Meant to be quick marine-slaughering combat experts, in reality they either die while crossing the battlefield, die while staning in front of their non-assault transport, or simply bounce off a unit of 10 stern guard because they only wound them on 5's while the space marine's shooting experts accidently shoot some of them dead in overwatch and then proceed to punch their counter-unit to death, since they still hit on 4+ and wound them on 3's. There literally is never a reason to ever pick banshees. Now, if someone was a great eldar fan in DoW2, where banshess jumped half a screen and then proceeded to slaugher anything in close combat without taking damage (you know, like the fluff says) he might have picked up three units of them, and maybe the corresponing phoenix lord. No matter how fluffy his opponent's army is going to be, and how much narrative they are forging, his banshees will always suck and fail to produce any results.

Hmmm. GW is in kind of a difficult position, isn't it?

On the one hand, they can't make massives changes to their rules or IP's, since that endangers their customers. On the other hand, Warhammer is an aging system and rule-relics are bloating it into a mess.


So, what is GW's stance right now?

As far as I understand it, GW still is a fair bit larger than any other tabletop company out there, and their strategy seems to match that.
They can't "buy" better rules, but they can up their production values (finecast experiments), have a faster release schedule, and a system that puts as little restrictions as possible on which modells you can purchase (unbound anybody?).

At least to me it seems, as if GW is just adopting a market strategy that plays to their strengths as a company, in a market which has seen a recent explosion of new tabletop systems.
"We are a modelling company, not a game company."


Of course I'm just talking out of my arse here, so... meh.

GW has a great deal of momentum working for them, and they're riding it in the hopes that a rapid release schedule and high quality models would keep people buying and thus prevent them from moving on to better game systems, in effect this is basically an attempt to reduce momentum loss.

Momentum is steadily drying out however, and they aren't really doing anything to build it back up again- a player lost is gone, probably permanently, and new players are few and far between, which is further compounded by the fact their most loyal costumers are the ones who already have extensive armies, and while this makes them invested and less likely to leave it also means they have comparatively less "need" to buy new models.

Nah, it's pretty good description of their strategy.

However, they are completely oblivious to their strategy angering their players, who will leave them long-term while new players aren't drawn to their product any more than to their competitors, because even seasoned veterans aren't advertising it, if not warning people to start.

It also doesn't take "massive" changes to get Warhammer 40k back to being an actual good game. 7th edition is written pretty well (compared to 5th, for example), if they continue down that road, and keep fixing rules issues with errata rather than obscure FAQs, that's one big point of criticism gone.

The second, and bigger one is harder to fix, balance. The problem is, GW doesn't really know how a typical game is supposed to work. They expect people to pick models somehow, put them on the table and somehow make it a fun game for both sides.
Issue is, the "somehows" need to be done by GW in order for any two people on this planet to be able to pick up a game with no issues.

A player must be able to walk into a GW store, ask an opponent for a point level and then be able to play him without a diplomatic act akin to creating peace in the middle east. "I brought a list for 750, 1500 and 1750" should be enough to start a game. Even the most competitive list should not be able to completely rip a semi-good list in half within two turns. If they want Lords of War in a regular game, they should just say so, or add it in the back as "fun alternative game styles". Telling your customer "I don't know, you decide" is bad design. Same goes for forgeworld.

If GW wants players to build lists represented in the fluff, rather than tzeench daemons summoning bloodletters and Draigo riding into battle alongside Logan Grimnar, they have to reward them for doing so. Why reward? Because no one likes being punished, and rewarding the opponent is basically the same without the bad taste.

The Space Marine codex does this with varying success, but you wont find a White Scars, Imperial Fists or Salamanders player fielding unfluffy lists. Why not do this for everyone? It's as easy as releasing a bunch of three-line bonuses for battle-forged armies. Pick up a Thousand Sons army bonus and be rewarded for fielding Tzeench Terminators, Thousand Sons cult troops and Sorcerers. Pick up a Kult of Speed army bonus and have your bike units all gain skilled rider or something. Pick up a "Invasion, Day One" army bonus and receive a bonus for all non-monstrous tyranid creatures. Suddenly all the tables would be filled with fluffy armies fighting each other.

Also, if they screw up, they need to stop being shy to tell us that they did a mistake and act as if nothing happened until the next codex or rules edition hopefully fixes it. What's so hard about telling people that Grimoire of True names wasn't supposed to create literally unkillable units, and putting out some sort of fix for it? What's so hard about admitting that the serpent shield turned out a little too good and maybe do something about it? Instead they twiddle their thumbs, act as if nothing happened (at least that's the impression they're giving) while pouring oil into the fire with things like "we don't want players to be able to handle everything".

None of this would scare any players away, quite the opposite. That's why it's so hard to understand why they act like they do.

Jidmah - this is off-topic but regarding your sig. I really don't think it sounds orkish. Almost anti-orkish in a way. Orks don't talk like they're slow and struggling over hard words. They just have a different vocabulary. Sorry - it's just bothering me because it really jars with how orks normally talk and seems like a superficial misunderstanding. I know it's not your wording - but I've just seen it in your sig. Also, I can't imagine Gork OR Mork looking kindly on an ork that asks for "protection". I know it's a parody of a prayer, but the whole thing is just really non-Orky.

It's an orkish parody on the imperial declaration of an exterminatus da kirmson barun posted on some thread.

That's probably why it sounds off to you, the original wording is the usual bloated "You are all fethed for reasons. The Emperor protects!" you get from space marines before obliterating a planet because of daemons, tyranids, orks, hersey or simply mixed up comunications

 Jidmah wrote:
It's an orkish parody on the imperial declaration of an exterminatus da kirmson barun posted on some thread.

That's probably why it sounds off to you, the original wording is the usual bloated "You are all fethed for reasons. The Emperor protects!" you get from space marines before obliterating a planet because of daemons, tyranids, orks, hersey or simply mixed up comunications

Yeah, I recognized where it's from. It just doesn't sound like anything an ork would say or how they would say it. You just don't hear them struggling over how to pronounce hard words - when an ork wants to say "KRUMP!" they say "KRUMP", not "deci... deca... decimate?" Anyway, just had to post because it was bothering me. No worries.

What I'm curious about is more how QE/LTRO is affecting GW stocks. The second they started the printing presses GW's stocks started rising until the start of this year, but they have tripled since the Helicopter Ben's plans kicked off...