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How do you guys have the energy to argue this when the intent is clear as day?

 DeathReaper wrote:

There is no rule allowing you to apply the effect of something without being the rule's requirements.

Not sure what you mean by this, but:

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase section Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

If you do not apply the effects after a missed roll to hit have you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."?

The "instructions in its entry" do not say that a successful roll to hit is needed to apply the effects of Psychic Shriek.

Edit: my mistake, my phone autocorrected the sentence you quoted. It should have read "There is no rule allowing you to apply the effect on something without meeting the rule's requirements."

The instructions in its entry state that it is a Witchfire power, so we must also cross-reference those rules in order to complete every requirement for the power.

Another quote to add to this: "The many varieties of psychic powers are organised into distinct categories. These determine any targeting requirements and other restrictions that apply along with its type, if it has one." (Psychic Phase, Types of Psychic Powers)

You cannot ignore these requirements and restrictions any more than you can ignore those listed in the power itself.

So, to answer your question: if you fail your roll To Hit, then yes, you absolutely do stop resolving the effects there, as you have applied the effects as far as you can go. You are not given permission to resolve every effect of the power regardless of restrictions, including being required to roll To Hit, only being able to affect a unit within 18", and not being able to affect units that are locked in combat.

Witchfire powers roll to hit exactly like as if with a firing weapon, as per premise 1, which why premise 3 is relevant. While 1 shot it's never explicitly stated anywhere premise 3 points out that multiple shots must be defined by the weapon.

#1 draws similarities between shooting and Witchfires, but I do not see anything that states "Witchfire powers roll to hit exactly like as if with a firing weapon" this statement is made up and does not appear in the rules anywhere.

I used the word "exactly" instead of the word "just". In this context, they are synonymous. We are told that Witchfires roll To Hit (amongst other things) just like you would with a weapon. The rules for Weapons tell us that the individual weapon will tell you if you get to fire multiple shots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
How do you guys have the energy to argue this when the intent is clear as day?

Because (a) we're discussing the rules, not intent and (b) the intent is clear as day to some people that you do roll to hit and if you hit it does nothing, while the intent is clear as day to other people that you do not roll to hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
Nobody said X dice, my statement from the beginning has been rolling ONE dice to see if it hits. If it hits, you resolve said power, if it does not, you can not. This is RAW, good day

(Emphasis mine).

You have yet to prove the underlined assertation.

We have... at least 3 times. And you have yet to provide any rule that supports not rolling to hit, or rolling 0D6 (which is a ludicrous assertion). But in case you're not clear on this... let's go through the whole thing one more time.

The relevent rules again:

Lets start with the rule you keep trotting out as justification for your argument, I believe that would be:

BRB pg 26 "Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve it's effects according to the instructions in its entry."

So, assuming we get to this point what do we do... well:

BRB pg 198 "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18."

Well, in order to resolve it's effects we have to look up how to resolve a witchfire spell:

BRB pg 27 Under Witchfire "Similarly, a witchfire power MUST roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule... or it is a Template weapon."

Look back at Psychic Shriek, it says nothing about it being a blast or template, or describing any other way To Hit, therefore we know we must roll to hit... how do we do that:

BRB pg 32 Under Roll To Hit "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot..."

and later on the page. "Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is ALWAYS at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of 1 always misses."


So yes... as per the rule your side keeps quoting, you are told to resolve the psychic power if you successfully cast. Then you read the power, which tells you it is a witchfire. Witchfire tells you you need to roll to hit, therefore you must. Rolling to hit tells that rolling to hit involves AT LEAST 1D6 (the rule makes allowances for things that involve more shots, but not less). And that nothing hits automatically. Therefore, you roll to hit, if you miss you have successfully manifested the power as per it's rules that it is a witchfire, it just doesn't do anything further because you missed your target. If you hit, then you proceed to do what the rest of the power describes (3d6 against leadership to determine how many wounds are suffered by the target unit).

In what way is any of this not clear? We have answered your question (several times over in this thread). And no one has yet provided a single Rule that justiifies this rule hitting automatically or somehow allowing a 0d6 roll. The burden of proof is now on your side my friend. Stop claiming otherwise.

Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

1. Witchfires roll To Hit like weapons. Weapons that fire multiple times must say so. This power does not say it fires multiple times, therefore you can only either 0 or 1 dice as any other number is "multiple". If you roll 0 dice, you do not satisfy the requirement of rolling To Hit like a weapon.

2. The "Types of Psychic Powers" section states that a psychic power's category determines any targeting requirements and other restrictions. If you do not meet the requirements for a rule, how are you supposed to apply it?

This all said, I wouldn't mind if my opponent tries to claim your position as RAW. That just means that my Be'lakor can use Shriek on units across the board that are locked in combat.

Zodiark wrote:

"Roll to hit with Witchfire (BS of psyker).
Roll to wound with 3d6 - leadership.
Apply wounds." (Rogueeyes, 2012)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, the 3d6 roll is not a to-wound roll. Not even close actually.

Really, so you're not rolling 3d6 against the units LD in order to determine how many wounds the target suffers?

One of the advantages of having taken a break from 40K is not having a tendency to pull rules from previous editions.
So when I want to learn how a psychic power works, I read it all.

Must be able to see the target.
Target cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest.
Must roll to hit (unless blast, template or auto hit)
Saves are taken in the same way as for any other shooting, and hits are allocated to the closest target models to the psyker.
WTF? Where the directions to roll to wound, and why are we distributing hits and not Wounds?

If you follow the RAW for resolving a Psychic shooting attack, you never roll to wound.


If you just jump over to the shooting rules instead, we have the process:
Nominate and shoot - Check, would be nominate and manifest
Choose a Target - Check
Select a Weapon - By default, you'd be using the witchfire
Roll to hit: Roll a D6 for each shot fired... Errr....
Roll to Wound: For each shot that hit, roll to see if it wounds the target, compairing strength and toughness... Errrr....
Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties:

Shooting rules don't allow for 1 roll to hit to cause multiple hits, without a specific exception (Telsa).
Shooting rules don't allow for hits to auto-wound without a specific exceptions.
From a pure RAW standpoint, it's unplayable.

To make it best fit into the shooting rules, I would:
Roll 3D6, subtract targets Leadership. This is how many shots you get. Hits auto wound, and armor and cover saves may not be taken. This power has no effect on vehicles.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

You are also making an assumption, that a requirement of Rolling to Hit can be fullfilled by rolling no dice, or by ignoring the result. And have yet to provide any rule that supports that statement.

I have shown that:

a) Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire.

b) Witchfires must roll to hit.

and c) Nothing that Rolls to Hit hits automatically.

Yes, I am making the assumption that this roll to Hit is 1 dice. Because of the possible options it is the only logical conclusion left.

Let's examine the options:

1) Don't Roll to hit. This is clearly not the case as we are told by points a) and b)
2) Roll 0D6. This is equivalent to not rolling to hit, which is covered above.
3) Roll 1D6. An assumption indeed, but one supported by the "Most models..." rule quote above. Yes it requires a bit of a logical leap, but a plausible one.
4) Roll XD6. Well, we would need to define X... there is no weapon profile to go off of... and the power clearly states it generates a number of wounds not hits, so that's not the case. So we are left with an undefined quantity and no way to resolve this if it were the case.
5) Roll To Hit, but ignore the result. This rule begs the question... why require a roll to Hit? We are told we can't hit automatically, and that in a roll to Hit a roll of 1 always misses. So if a witchfire misses, how do you justify generating wounds.

So yes, I have made assumptions, but those assumptions are that when a rule tells you to do something, that something has a meaningful purpose. And using logical deduction on the RAW to determine what that purpose is.

Your assumptions a) have no RAW support, b) ignore and/or contradict several rules which I have provide. So unless you can provide any rules that say "Roll 0D6, or "Roll to hit but ignore the result". Your method for resolving the power is in violation of RAW and can't be the case.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

1. Witchfires roll To Hit like weapons. Weapons that fire multiple times must say so. This power does not say it fires multiple times, therefore you can only either 0 or 1 dice as any other number is "multiple". If you roll 0 dice, you do not satisfy the requirement of rolling To Hit like a weapon.

2. The "Types of Psychic Powers" section states that a psychic power's category determines any targeting requirements and other restrictions. If you do not meet the requirements for a rule, how are you supposed to apply it?

This all said, I wouldn't mind if my opponent tries to claim your position as RAW. That just means that my Be'lakor can use Shriek on units across the board that are locked in combat.

1. "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range." - Witchfire does not list any shots in its profile, so the amount of D6s you must roll according to the shooting rules for weapons is 0.

2. The requirements for Witchfires:
" Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit..."

And as a shooting attack, it also follows the shooting restrctions:

"Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running"

"Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting"

So we know that in order to resolve Psychic Shriek, we must have gone through the steps of manifesting a psychic power, be within range and line of sight of an enemy, cannot be locked in combat or running (or have another restriction that stops it from shooting, like 0 BS or having Gone to Ground), and we must roll to hit.
Now, I can't find a single rule that says this roll to hit must hit in order to roll 3d6 and subtract the target's leadership, then inflict that many wounds, perhaps you could point it out to me?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

1. Witchfires roll To Hit like weapons. Weapons that fire multiple times must say so. This power does not say it fires multiple times, therefore you can only either 0 or 1 dice as any other number is "multiple". If you roll 0 dice, you do not satisfy the requirement of rolling To Hit like a weapon.

2. The "Types of Psychic Powers" section states that a psychic power's category determines any targeting requirements and other restrictions. If you do not meet the requirements for a rule, how are you supposed to apply it?

This all said, I wouldn't mind if my opponent tries to claim your position as RAW. That just means that my Be'lakor can use Shriek on units across the board that are locked in combat.

1. "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range." - Witchfire does not list any shots in its profile, so the amount of D6s you must roll according to the shooting rules for weapons is 0.

2. The requirements for Witchfires:
" Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit..."

And as a shooting attack, it also follows the shooting restrctions:

"Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running"

"Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting"

So we know that in order to resolve Psychic Shriek, we must have gone through the steps of manifesting a psychic power, be within range and line of sight of an enemy, cannot be locked in combat or running (or have another restriction that stops it from shooting, like 0 BS or having Gone to Ground), and we must roll to hit.
Now, I can't find a single rule that says this roll to hit must hit in order to roll 3d6 and subtract the target's leadership, then inflict that many wounds, perhaps you could point it out to me?

Premise 1 is incorrect. As the rules for Rolling to hit say a number of d6's, and then goes on to say that number is usually one, and can be MORE. There IS no rules support for rolling less than one die to hit, unless you are specifically told to do something instead of rolling to hit. Psychic shriek does not describe any alternative to hit. And you are still ignoring the rules that say nothing automatically hits. And rolling a die to hit, then ignoring it is doing just that... hitting automatically.

Are you suggesting that 0 is not a number?
I have quoted the rules support, a d6 per shot, 0 shots, 0 d6s.
I don't think it automatically hits, I think that it doesn't hit at all.

We agree that Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire, that much is clearly stated. We also agree that Witchfires Roll To Hit. Also clearly stated.

We also know that most witchfire's have a weapon like profile that tells you how many D6 to roll, or provide an alternate method of determining if the target unit is hit.

Finally we agree, that Psychic Shriek itself, does not give us any indication of how many dice to roll. Or any way to determine if the target unit is Hit.


Therefore, anything that comes after that is an assumption.

My assumption is 1D6, and that the rest of the power is contingent on that roll.

Yours is that, you ignore the requirement of a roll to hit, since no specific number is given.

RAW there is no definite support for either interpretation.

We could go round and round asking each other to state rules that prove our claim, and cite what we think other rules mean. But ultimately, neither will ever convince the other because the RAW instructions to pick one or the other just don't exist.

I claim it to be simpler to extrapolate based on less certain wording that 1 die is rolled (models typically fire one shot but are sometimes told to fire more), you claim it is simpler to just ignore that requirement (roll to hit, but the result has no impact).

Until it is FAQ'd all we can do is say what we think is RAI, and HIWPI.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Assumptions you are making:
- Most models only get to fire one shot, therefore Psychic Shriek is a single shot power (this is like saying most Tyranids have Instinctive Behaviour, therefore Genestealers have Instinctive Behaviour). This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
- If you miss the to-hit roll Psychic Shriek resolves without effect

Please provide rules to support both of these premises.

1. Witchfires roll To Hit like weapons. Weapons that fire multiple times must say so. This power does not say it fires multiple times, therefore you can only either 0 or 1 dice as any other number is "multiple". If you roll 0 dice, you do not satisfy the requirement of rolling To Hit like a weapon.

2. The "Types of Psychic Powers" section states that a psychic power's category determines any targeting requirements and other restrictions. If you do not meet the requirements for a rule, how are you supposed to apply it?

This all said, I wouldn't mind if my opponent tries to claim your position as RAW. That just means that my Be'lakor can use Shriek on units across the board that are locked in combat.

1. "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range." - Witchfire does not list any shots in its profile, so the amount of D6s you must roll according to the shooting rules for weapons is 0.

2. The requirements for Witchfires:
" Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit..."

And as a shooting attack, it also follows the shooting restrctions:

"Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running"

"Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting"

So we know that in order to resolve Psychic Shriek, we must have gone through the steps of manifesting a psychic power, be within range and line of sight of an enemy, cannot be locked in combat or running (or have another restriction that stops it from shooting, like 0 BS or having Gone to Ground), and we must roll to hit.
Now, I can't find a single rule that says this roll to hit must hit in order to roll 3d6 and subtract the target's leadership, then inflict that many wounds, perhaps you could point it out to me?

That's probably the best argument I've seen so far against rolling to hit. Until a FAQ comes out, I'll be happy to play this way if my opponent prefers it.

Were I to make a houserule for this, I would choose the option that involves adding less rules to Psychic Shriek, so instead of:

Psychic Shriek is an assault 1 witchfire power with a range of 18". It has no strength or AP value and does not cause wounds. Instead, if Psychic Shriek hits the target unit, roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek. If the power does not hit the target unit it resolves without effect.

I would go with:

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18" that does not roll to hit. Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

Yes... but in either case then you would have to write those words in to Haemorrhage & Purge Soul. As well. Thus making the best choice for adding fewer rules the rule book being to add to Witchfires description ""Similarly, a witchfire power MUST roll To Hit (Treat as Assault 1 unless sepcified otherwise), unless it has the Blast special rule ... or it is a Template weapon."

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
How do you guys have the energy to argue this when the intent is clear as day?

Because (a) we're discussing the rules, not intent

I am sorry, but you lost me here. You are doing what?

and (b) the intent is clear as day to some people that you do roll to hit and if you hit it does nothing, while the intent is clear as day to other people that you do not roll to hit.

But in this edition Witchfires require a successful to hit -roll to actually hit anything. Now some are stuck with the concept that because the power says A then we can ignore B. I partially understand that point of view, but do not accept it. There is no support anywhere to suggest that you could just ignore that requirement.

The ability to manifest does not equal the ability to automatically hit your target.

This should be clarified by GW in a FAQ, but I'm not holding my breath.

This argument will never cease.

Naw wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
How do you guys have the energy to argue this when the intent is clear as day?

Because (a) we're discussing the rules, not intent

I am sorry, but you lost me here. You are doing what?

and (b) the intent is clear as day to some people that you do roll to hit and if you hit it does nothing, while the intent is clear as day to other people that you do not roll to hit.

But in this edition Witchfires require a successful to hit -roll to actually hit anything. Now some are stuck with the concept that because the power says A then we can ignore B. I partially understand that point of view, but do not accept it. There is no support anywhere to suggest that you could just ignore that requirement.

The ability to manifest does not equal the ability to automatically hit your target.

This should be clarified by GW in a FAQ, but I'm not holding my breath.

This argument will never cease.

I'm not suggesting that the power automatically hits or that it can hit even if does not have a successful to hit roll.
I am saying that it does not hit and that hits are completely irrelevant to the functioning of the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chanceafs wrote:
Yes... but in either case then you would have to write those words in to Haemorrhage & Purge Soul. As well. Thus making the best choice for adding fewer rules the rule book being to add to Witchfires description ""Similarly, a witchfire power MUST roll To Hit (Treat as Assault 1 unless sepcified otherwise), unless it has the Blast special rule ... or it is a Template weapon."

You would then also need to add the text into each Witchfire power like Psychic Shriek that it only affects the unit if said to hit roll we are adding to the rules results in a hit, and it does not affect the the unit if it misses.

I personally am with raven on this one., but no one I know will play it like that. The reason I am on his side is partially his own arguments which I will not rehash myself, but the fact that witchfires have a weapon profile like any ranged weapon in the game, where ones that don't roll to hit have wound resolution (focused witchfires for example). I assumed GW put the witchfire classification onto it to allow it to be fired from a fire point (and in 6th ed to be done in the shooting phase).

As a whole psychic shriek is a mess of a power. We have no weapon profile to work with for resolving a shooting attack, the sentence structure of the power itself does not connect the wound resolution to the witchfire (the words, "if the attack hits", or "if the shot successfully hits" is omitted). Even RAI doesn't hold up as its rule structure is closer to that of a focused witchfire or malediction than that of a witchfire.

Once again, this can be added to the Witchfire description. Unless specified otherwise, treat these powers as an Assault 1 weapon, that if a Hit is caused has the described effect.

But in truth, all that is, is a very long way of saying "Witchfire powers MUST roll to hit." But apparently saying you have to do something, and understanding that thing has a bearing on what follows is too much of an logical leap for some people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since there are at least 4 Witchfire powers in the game that do not have a specific profile, nor any alternate method of generating Hits. It seems far more reasonable to me to assume that saying witchfires need to roll to Hit was a way to address these powers specifically since a power with a shooting profile is pretty clear on the whole "needing a roll to hit".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said... as we have pretty much agreed that there is currently no RAW way to resolve this debate. There is no need for this topic to continue. Goodnight.

chanceafs wrote:
That said... as we have pretty much agreed that there is currently no RAW way to resolve this debate. There is no need for this topic to continue. Goodnight.

I would agree with this. It's not clear one way or another, so needs a FAQ. In the meantime, just D6 it with your opponent

What IS clear is that, unlike rolling to-wound, rolling 3d6... Is NOT contingent on rolling a successful roll to-hit

Those who claim it is contingent, please for the first time this thread, prove it. It is proven for rolls to-wound, similar proof is required for 3d6

Zodiark - reported, again, as you seem incapable of obeying the tenets of this forum. You also have not supplied a rules based argument, nor rebutted others, nor marked your posts as hywpi.

Let us all keep Rule no.1 in mind when arguing in YMDC.

Those who claim the ToHit roll has no bearing on the resolving of the effect have failed so far to indicate what rules allow them to bypass the ToHit roll, which can not be resolved.

Instead they seem bent on stressing that the ToHit roll has no effect and gloss over it...

The fact that the rules say:
Witchfires are shooting attacks, ..
, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons (note: many doesn't mean all)
Witchfires must roll To Hit

What could the intent be?

Could it be that if you miss your ToHit roll the witchfire misses and has no effect? Like every other weapon in the game?

The simplest fix to get past the ToHit roll without a profile would be to roll a single die for it and if it misses, it misses!
Would this not fit the intent the best?

Saying it doesn't need to roll To Hit is a far greater 'fix' to the rules and directly contradicts a part of the rules.

So are we arguing rules as written or intent here? I'm getting confused by all these intent arguments being used to try to counter RAW ones.

We're not saying it doesn't need to roll to hit

We are saying the result is irrelevant, as nothing ties a successful to hit to the ability to resolve 3d6... In fact, as per the rules for psychic powers, you are told to resolve it according to your entry. The entry makes no requirement on having "hit", so claiming otherwise is certainly making up rules, and disallowing the resolution is cheating

Yet you can not show me where it not working or being tied to the reslution gives you permission to skip it?

You must roll To Hit.

If you wish to houserule that it isn't needed, that's fine of course.

 Shandara wrote:
Yet you can not show me where it not working or being tied to the reslution gives you permission to skip it?

You must roll To Hit.

If you wish to houserule that it isn't needed, that's fine of course.

I am not saying you can skip it. Just that, no matter what you roll, you still resolve the power according yo it's entry.

You seem to not understand the point. Roll to hit. Use 1, 10 or 10000 dice - it doesn't matter. WHATEVER YOU ROLL you resolve the power. A roll to hit is required. A successful roll is not.

 Shandara wrote:
Yet you can not show me where it not working or being tied to the reslution gives you permission to skip it?

You must roll To Hit.

If you wish to houserule that it isn't needed, that's fine of course.

As I have stated, according to RAW you must roll 0d6 to hit at the beginning of the resolution of the power. I only suggest that we skip the required roll to hit as the result of said roll is irrelevant to the resolution of the power.

Similar to when we have two rules that require you to both reroll all failed results and reroll all successful results. According to RAW you roll all your dice then pick them up and roll them again, but the results of the first roll are completely irrelevant so we skip them and just roll once.

 Shandara wrote:
Those who claim the ToHit roll has no bearing on the resolving of the effect have failed so far to indicate what rules allow them to bypass the ToHit roll, which can not be resolved.

Instead they seem bent on stressing that the ToHit roll has no effect and gloss over it...

The fact that the rules say:
Witchfires are shooting attacks, ..
, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons (note: many doesn't mean all)
Witchfires must roll To Hit

What could the intent be?

Could it be that if you miss your ToHit roll the witchfire misses and has no effect? Like every other weapon in the game?

The simplest fix to get past the ToHit roll without a profile would be to roll a single die for it and if it misses, it misses!
Would this not fit the intent the best?

Saying it doesn't need to roll To Hit is a far greater 'fix' to the rules and directly contradicts a part of the rules.

Passing the psychic test gives me permission to resolve the power according to its entry. Correct?
Cite denial to resolve the power if your arbitrary number of dice miss.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What IS clear is that, unlike rolling to-wound, rolling 3d6... Is NOT contingent on rolling a successful roll to-hit

Those who claim it is contingent, please for the first time this thread, prove it. It is proven for rolls to-wound, similar proof is required for 3d6

Zodiark - reported, again, as you seem incapable of obeying the tenets of this forum. You also have not supplied a rules based argument, nor rebutted others, nor marked your posts as hywpi.

Wow, you reported me, okay, big deal. Grow up.

Moving on.

I have quoted, from the BRB numerous times the exact lines in the text that require you to roll to hit, you simply have been neglecting to consider it because it does not support your side of the argument.

The RAW REQUIRE you to roll to hit BEFORE [u] you are able to roll the 3d6. The profile for a Psychic Shriek REQUIRES you to ROLL TO HIT. Any assumption that the number of dice to roll of zero is null and void as zero either represents not rolling a dice or not needing to roll a dice, which would make the power auto-hit, which the power itself would say, yet it doesn't. Any assumption that simply because it doesn't state that you need to roll on the powers entry itself because there is no weapon profile on the power is a manipulation of the rules itself.

As the RAW state that Witchfire power MUST ROLL TO HIT unless STATED otherwise, this circular logic you keep attempting with your weak debate position is fruitless and useless.

Now for the other debater who reported me for disagreeing with him earlier.

Passing the psychic test gives me permission to resolve the power according to its entry. Correct?
Cite denial to resolve the power if your arbitrary number of dice miss.

You first assertion is correct,, successfully passing the psychic test allows you to move onto the next stage, which in the case of a WITCHFIRE power, REQUIRES A ROLL TO HIT.

Throughout the BRB, any time to-hit is mentioned it is assumed and widely accepted that you roll using your BS and if you hit, you hit and if you miss, you miss. Consider that Witchfire requires a roll to hit unless SPECIFICALLY STATED otherwise, you would roll to-hit as you would a shooting weapon and if you hit, you would then roll 3d6, subtracting the targets LD and apply wounds as normal. If you miss the to-hit roll, well the answer is indeed obvious isn't it. Logic dictates that if you miss, you miss. BRB dictates that if you miss a to-hit rule, you miss.

Neither of you have any new arguments or positions in this debate, you're simply grasping at straws. Either play it with your own house rules or follow logic and play it how it is written in the BRB, either way this discussion has been going on for years, this is just the most recent incarnation of a waste in time.

I have models to paint and Psychic Shrikes to perform on opponents who understand RAW and logic.

Peace

On a final note.

Either of you who disagree with rolling to hit on a Witchfire power, unless it is a Blast or Template or the power DIRECTLY states otherwise, prove that you a) do not need to roll to hit, and I mean a DIRECT quote from the rules, not your opinion, not your assumptions, but cold hard FACT, or b) prove that a roll of zero dice or simply not rolling at all allows you to hit, (especially when things that auto-hit SPECIFICALLY tell you that the attack auto-hits), you prove either of these with actual facts and backing, you will have won the debate and we can stop arguing, until you do, you're both wrong and this entire thing has been a waste of everyones time.

As per rules of YMDC, provide examples, from the text that specifically back up your claim.