Sweden implements new rating system for video games

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**Sining**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sining wrote:
So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?

Not “magically different”, but yeah, they live pretty different experiences.

Culturally yes, I understand there's a lot of difference. But I'm curious what differences would be present that would make them think that rating games in this way would be more likely to get non-whitemales to play games. Do non-whitemales in Sweden feel that there's too many white male heroes in gaming and that's why they don't game as much?

**StarTrotter**

Melissia wrote:
Not everyone enjoys planning out every single purchase. Impulse buys are perfectly acceptable ways to spend extra cash, and giving more information to people whom do impulse buys isn't a bad thing.

No, don't remind me. They won't do it! The winter sales won't take me! My wallet will not lose cash... it just won't!

Is there some notification we can add in about how if it is a movie game it's likely bad or something

(so many bad games my parents bought me. So many!)

**Melissia**

I suffered through LJN, too, I know your pain.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Sining wrote:
Do non-whitemales in Sweden feel that there's too many white male heroes in gaming and that's why they don't game as much?

I have no idea, I do not know anyone in Sweden. What I can tell though, is that when we went to see Prince of Persia with best friend who is Iranian (she is French too now, but only since a few weeks!), she made a remark on how it would be great to see people that look like her on screen, or something similar. Even though despite the name, no-one in the cast was actually Iranian. And she is really, really not the kind of person that usually pay attention to this kind of stuff.
So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.

**Sining**

Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley? So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?

**Seaward**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.

If only Asia had a massive game industry...

**daedalus**

Sining wrote:
Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley? So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?

I remember him being a highly pixellated fellow wearing a turban. I think Jake Gyllenhaal would have been a little young at the time, so I doubt it was based upon him.

**Melissia**

Seaward wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.

If only Asia had a massive game industry...

Yes, because all people of Asian descent but whom have never actually set foot in Asia know Japanese and Chinese and Korean, and understand and enjoy the cultural quirks of the major game producing countries in the far east.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?

If you need a rating on a game to buy it you probably dont know enough about the game to have a valid reason for buying it in the first place.

And you base this reasoning on...?

**Sigvatr**

StarTrotter wrote:

Is there some notification we can add in about how if it is a movie game it's likely bad or something (so many bad games my parents bought me. So many!)

The NES rainbow of doom. Never forget.

**ZebioLizard2**

Melissia wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.

If only Asia had a massive game industry...
Yes, because all people of Asian descent but whom have never actually set foot in Asia know Japanese and Chinese and Korean, and understand and enjoy the cultural quirks of the major game producing countries in the far east.

Except Hybrid never stated that at all. It was simply "Might enjoy seeing characters that look like them in video games"

**Melissia**

So?

**ZebioLizard2**

Melissia wrote:
So?

I'm sure you know what "Moving the Goalposts are" by now.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Sining wrote:
Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley?

No idea. Check Wikipedia.

Sining wrote:
So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?

Cannot remember. She knew they were not actually Persians, though.

Seaward wrote:
If only Asia had a massive game industry...

Well, to be honest, characters in Asian video games often do not look Asian.

**Melissia**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Melissia wrote:
So?

I'm sure you know what "Moving the Goalposts are" by now.

That's not moving the goalposts, given that asking all people of Asian descent to play Chinese video games is patently absurd and ridiculous.

**LordofHats**

Did someone seriously just suggest Asia doesn't have a massive video game industry? Is that just an awful joke or serious?

**Sigvatr**

Pretty sure it was meant to be ironic.

**Aesop the God Awful**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Seaward wrote:
If only Asia had a massive game industry...

Well, to be honest, characters in Asian video games often do not look Asian.

They're usually blonde and blue eyed, which I think is great. I feel better represented in Asian games than Western games

**Melissia**

As an aside, there's been studies amongst professionals and scholars/researchers themselves, that has shown that even amongst them, there is a great deal of bias against women and other minorities, and bias towards young/middle aged white males.

For example, Google conducted a study that showed that, when given the choice between two resumes, the only difference between the two being one has a masculine sounding name and the other a feminine, even senior-level psychologist/sociologist researchers were found to favor the male over the female and feel that it was the superior resume-- in spite of the fact that, by objective standards, they were exactly the same. These societal biases were ingrained deeply enough that it didn't matter if the researcher themselves were male or female, they had the exact same bias rating.

It's not really hard to see this translating in to how game developers, writers, and producers act towards representation of minority characters. Given this, I can see merit in a law that adds additional information for impulse buyers to look at.

(link is of a one hour conference that Google Ventures did on the prevalence of inherent bias and how to combat it, to prospective new technology entrepreneurs)

**Bishop F Gantry**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Bishop F Gantry wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?

If you need a rating on a game to buy it you probably dont know enough about the game to have a valid reason for buying it in the first place.

And you base this reasoning on...?

Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.

**Lynata**

Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.

To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.

**Sigvatr**

Lynata wrote:
Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.

It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.

**Lynata**

Sigvatr wrote:It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.

I as a gamer would be interested in such things, and I have no idea what reviews you are alluding to. So I guess I am an example for who such a rating could be useful.

But as the article pointed out, its main purpose would seem to be to put "pressure on the industry" by openly calling out aspects of a game that may otherwise only be discussed by fringe media, which I guess you were referring to with that comment.

**Melissia**

Some people seem to get offended that this kind of thing gets called out more often.

**StarTrotter**

Lynata wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.
I as a gamer would be interested in such things, and I have no idea what reviews you are alluding to. So I guess I am an example for who such a rating could be useful.

But as the article pointed out, its main purpose would seem to be to put "pressure on the industry" by openly calling out aspects of a game that may otherwise only be discussed by fringe media, which I guess you were referring to with that comment.

Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything? I'll be rather honest, I'm not really sure how this would put pressure on an industry. So this would be a requirement of ratings when it comes to Swedish games? Would it be on facebook games, tablet games, indie games, or just AAAs and the others that go through them? Honestly I'm a bit out of the loop and a bit confused on the functioning of this. Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical (well as logical as japanese games not just having everyone have black hair but instead rainbow colors for everyone!

). But yeah, I'm honestly overall just kind of lost, partly maybe due to relying on google translator. It talks about pressuring, of some ratings to be critical of games with main characters that are white males? Some sort of way to support gamers to do other things or something, something about sales? I mean overall it just loses me after a certain part and I flop right on down. Then there's rating on computer games (but maybe not video games?) which largely are stuck to Steam and providers like GoG, etc. Overall I'm just honestly unsure what any of it means in the end and part of me is somewhat cynical that it will truly make a significant difference from what little I can understand from the claiming.

**Lynata**

StarTrotter wrote:Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything?

Maybe it won't, but the general idea is probably along the lines of game studios and publishers wanting to see good ratings, so a system that calls out biased character design might engender developers to "think outside the box". Some designers just forget about alternate character types and could be reminded of these options, whereas publishers are used to pressure studios into sticking to established industry norms, yet could be persuaded to change their stance in the face of mounting public pressure.

It's a way to raise awareness, nothing more, nothing less.

StarTrotter wrote:Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical.

You can totally have a fictional sexist and racist world without catering to and reaffirming such stances in the players with stuff like, I dunno, the player character walking into a lesbian BDSM scene, or female fighters written into the game just so they can be berated by the male PC. *cough cough*

Not saying that these things shouldn't exist at all, but it hardly makes games like The Witcher stand out as a premiere example in serious storytelling.

**Bishop F Gantry**

Lynata wrote:
Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.

Good luck finding two identical games, but this one has an mostly asian cast... for the miniscule effect this rating will have on affecting ones purchase.

**illuknisaa**

Lynata wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything?
Maybe it won't, but the general idea is probably along the lines of game studios and publishers wanting to see good ratings, so a system that calls out biased character design might engender developers to "think outside the box". Some designers just forget about alternate character types and could be reminded of these options, whereas publishers are used to pressure studios into sticking to established industry norms, yet could be persuaded to change their stance in the face of mounting public pressure.

It's a way to raise awareness, nothing more, nothing less.

StarTrotter wrote:Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical.
You can totally have a fictional sexist and racist world without catering to and reaffirming such stances in the players with stuff like, I dunno, the player character walking into a lesbian BDSM scene, or female fighters written into the game just so they can be berated by the male PC. *cough cough*

Not saying that these things shouldn't exist at all, but it hardly makes games like The Witcher stand out as a premiere example in serious storytelling.

Pretty much all rating systems suck especially government ones. There are so many wild inconsistensies with the current ESBR so adding an extra layer of ratings which sounds extremely bad doesn't help at all. Just look at how devs "think outside of the box" with current rating system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95PcRNVX5gM

Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants. Just look what happened to robocop.

And why not add try a rating for something that is objectively usefull information first before trying subjective ratings? Like "does the game have fov options? (Y/N)".

**Goliath**

Sining wrote:
Not so comfortable when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?

Which shoe is on what foot now? That phrase is a response to an accusation. I have made no accusations, unless you're saying that actually I'm the one that's exposed to media with my race in the majority, in which case, yeah. I know.

You're making a lot of very very specific assumptions here, most of which are directly related to my race and country. It would be the equivalent of me saying 'oh, you're from UK? You must eat a lot of fish and chips'.

Other than the assumption that you don't live in Sweden, I have made no assumptions related to your race and country that I wouldn't make about every other country, and every other person on the planet. It would be the equivalent of saying 'oh, you're from the UK? You must see a lot of white people on locally made TV and video games'

And secondly, your assumptions are totally wrong in the first place. You're kind of assuming that over here, we're more comfortable playing characters that are like us, which is basically implying we're racist and we like playing our own race.

No, it's implying that you're like almost every other person on the planet and you identify more strongly with people that you share similarities with. It's the reason that almost every game lead is a middle aged white guy, because of the (outdated) notion that the majority of gamers are middle aged white guys, so they're more likely to enjoy the game. Why the feth do you think there's so many calls for better representation of minorities in games? It's not because there's a quota, it's because people want to be able to play as characters that they have some small level of similarity with, and not everyone is middle aged, or white, or a guy.

I would also add that race isn't the only way in which games could be made with you as a target; gender is another, sexuality, build, intelligence, hobbies... I explicitly stated in my original post that race wasn't the only factor, by mentioning non-males as well as non-white-males.

If that was true, I guess I should only be playing the monk and wizard in Diablo III cause they're asian in appearance -_-.

I get hat you've already decided to add a subtext to my original post that wasn't there, and decide that everything I do is racist because of it, but seriously. it is not a statement on who should be playing as who, but on who will identify with who. Just because you play a load of games with a range of characters doesn't mean that other people are comfortable doing so.

Adding to that, how are we still having a discussion on whether Asian people in Hong Kong will have a different portrayal in the media compared to Asian people in Sweden?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Goliath wrote:
Sining wrote:
Not so comfortable when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?
Which shoe is on what foot now? That phrase is a response to an accusation. I have made no accusations, unless you're saying that actually I'm the one that's exposed to media with my race in the majority, in which case, yeah. I know.

You're making a lot of very very specific assumptions here, most of which are directly related to my race and country. It would be the equivalent of me saying 'oh, you're from UK? You must eat a lot of fish and chips'.
Other than the assumption that you don't live in Sweden, I have made no assumptions related to your race and country that I wouldn't make about every other country, and every other person on the planet. It would be the equivalent of saying 'oh, you're from the UK? You must see a lot of white people on locally made TV and video games'

And secondly, your assumptions are totally wrong in the first place. You're kind of assuming that over here, we're more comfortable playing characters that are like us, which is basically implying we're racist and we like playing our own race.
No, it's implying that you're like almost every other person on the planet and you identify more strongly with people that you share similarities with. It's the reason that almost every game lead is a middle aged white guy, because of the (outdated) notion that the majority of gamers are middle aged white guys, so they're more likely to enjoy the game. Why the feth do you think there's so many calls for better representation of minorities in games? It's not because there's a quota, it's because people want to be able to play as characters that they have some small level of similarity with, and not everyone is middle aged, or white, or a guy.

I would also add that race isn't the only way in which games could be made with you as a target; gender is another, sexuality, build, intelligence, hobbies... I explicitly stated in my original post that race wasn't the only factor, by mentioning non-males as well as non-white-males.

If that was true, I guess I should only be playing the monk and wizard in Diablo III cause they're asian in appearance -_-.
I get hat you've already decided to add a subtext to my original post that wasn't there, and decide that everything I do is racist because of it, but seriously. it is not a statement on who should be playing as who, but on who will identify with who. Just because you play a load of games with a range of characters doesn't mean that other people are comfortable doing so.

Adding to that, how are we still having a discussion on whether Asian people in Vietnam* will have a different portrayal in the media compared to Asian people in Sweden?

*based on my badly remembered flag knowledge.

Hong Kong.
You can tell what the flag is by hovering your mouse over it.