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The Leman Russ Eradicator works wonders against the Warrior blob. So did the double Executioner Pask squadron, as well as hurting wraiths. Although TBH, I think screening conscripts blobs are more necessary now, than they ever.

PS. The Manticore was also a good performer against Wraiths.

 RunicFIN wrote:
It's a good Codex and the only slightly overpowered unit I see are the Wraiths. I disagree about the new Codex being more powerful than the old one, by a far margin. On a general level units got buffs across the board, but they nerfed the overpowered builds ( albeit allowing a new one, but I'm fairly certain Wraith spam will start to get countered quite quickly as the meta develops.)

I don't think there is a counter against Wraith-spam.
But I also think that Wraith-spam isn't enough to make an overpowered list, they would need overpowered backup to really dominate tournaments and I just don't see that back-up in the Codex.
There is a lot of strong back-up, but no longer the 100-point NS's and 90-point AB's that the old Wraith-spam could get.
And for their RP4+ they need quite a big amount of tax. These tax-units are good, but not something that would control the meta.

PS. 4 Flyers and 3 AB's alone is increased by 290 points compared to the old Codex.

 BoomWolf wrote:
120 shots in two rounds is TECHINCALLY possible, but not PRACTICALLY possible.

To shoot this much you'll need 30 guys in RF range, and the wraiths to somehow fail to charge at them. given how absurdly faster wraiths are, even a single turn of RF is doubtful.

It is entirely possible and probable. Round 1 you fire 50. Round two you are firing at rapid fire range if they are anywhere near you enough to worry about. So you move and shoot move and shoot. If the enemy is still there...do it again. and with powers like Forewarning over my blob, Im not going anywhere.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
4+ RP is wrong, utterly wrong.
The Decurion detachment is practically a no-brainer: why shouldn't I use it, when I was already going to pick the units listed it? Free 4+ RP not just to the Reclamation Legion models, but ALL FORMATIONS is a terrible design choice since it provides no real counter to it, and being unable to counter it at all in a tactical game provides no real enjoyment but pure tears of frustation

Why should I use it in objective based games?
There are objective secured units.

 wuestenfux wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
4+ RP is wrong, utterly wrong.
The Decurion detachment is practically a no-brainer: why shouldn't I use it, when I was already going to pick the units listed it? Free 4+ RP not just to the Reclamation Legion models, but ALL FORMATIONS is a terrible design choice since it provides no real counter to it, and being unable to counter it at all in a tactical game provides no real enjoyment but pure tears of frustation

Why should I use it in objective based games?
There are objective secured units.

This is a huge downside to Necrons, which can be exploited.

 Jancoran wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
120 shots in two rounds is TECHINCALLY possible, but not PRACTICALLY possible.

To shoot this much you'll need 30 guys in RF range, and the wraiths to somehow fail to charge at them. given how absurdly faster wraiths are, even a single turn of RF is doubtful.

It is entirely possible and probable. Round 1 you fire 50. Round two you are firing at rapid fire range if they are anywhere near you enough to worry about. So you move and shoot move and shoot. If the enemy is still there...do it again. and with powers like Forewarning over my blob, Im not going anywhere.

50 shots, 25 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 wound goes through. You can give them a 4+ RP if you stack some buffs, so that is less then 1 wound on average.
You need heavier weapons then lasguns to bring down wraiths sadly. That's a horrible strategy.

Obviously plasma guns do a lot better, but crap guns got thrown out the window with T5. Not to mention the disgusting Flayed Ones wiping blobs out in a turn or 2.

I wasnt responding to the wraith issue. i was responding tothe sniping issue of characters,.

 Jancoran wrote:
I wasnt responding to the wraith issue. i was responding tothe sniping issue of characters,.

Ah.
Then that doesn't work for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. Apologize, I thought you had dropped it after mentioning the sniper.

On topic;

Can any unit in the game out melee wraiths and flayed ones? I'm looking at my TWC and it looks very depressing. I thought Str 10 might swing the lead in my favor, but as mentioned in the Da+Ba vs Wraiths thread, the I1 striking is just awful.

What about
5x2 plague marines with plasma
So,
4 plasma guns, 8 shots, ~6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 go through?
8 bolters, 16 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 go through.
With RP it becomes sad...
In melee, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 go through.
Without RP it's not terrible, though hardly point effective. I assume I charge for lol reasons.

Maybe I could deep strike and combi flamer with termies?
I might just launch a vindicator shell on them and try to wrap the vindicator with a unit that they can wipe out in combat. Two rounds of firing and I might achieve something.

Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.

T5 W2 3++ on a 12" move unit that can Fleet and potentially benefit from RP and even 4+ RP?

That's pretty insanely hard to kill for a 40pt model, especially to do so before they get where they want to go.

The new Whip Coils are also much better against most units, the difference between the enemy being I1 and you being I5 is often irrelevant, the result is usually the same, especially when that Init 1 only applied to models in direct base contact, and they're cheaper than they were before either way.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.

They are harder to kill than in the previous incarnation of the codex.
I'd use them to clear objectives and units occupying objectives are usually I4 or less.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.

...Yea I mean why would I want to strike at my normal Init 4 anyway against Init 5?

There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.

The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.

 RunicFIN wrote:
There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.

The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.

And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.

The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.

The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.

And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.

The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.

Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.

Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.

In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.

I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.

16 hounds and a juggernaut herald with locus and axe are 460 points. That’s how I run them.

But hounds aren’t that killy, they are 2 wounds and tend to stick around in combat. Boys and horrogant would do a better job.

oftenwrong wrote:
16 hounds and a juggernaut herald with locus and axe are 460 points. That’s how I run them.

But hounds aren’t that killy, they are 2 wounds and tend to stick around in combat. Boys and horrogant would do a better job.

Also, Necrons have bigger blasts now, that insta gib the Khorne Dogs. So, that's always fun.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.

The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.

And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.

The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.

Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.

Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.

In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.

I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.

I don't "want" the Wraiths to beat pretty much everything, just pointing out the large mismatch with the example you gave and the contingencies involved.

Now, two full units of Wraiths with whip coils is going to be worth 26 hounds with herald with grimoire and hatred locus.

Now, if we're assuming the Herald is accompanying the Flesh Hounds, that means the Flesh Hounds mobility is significantly impaired, moving and charging as Infantry instead of Beasts.

This presents an issue as it would indicate that the Wraiths would have the choice of when, how, and where to engage. The smaller unit will not be similarly impaired, but will almost certainly be wiped out if it attempts to charge first on its own. So we'll assume the Wraiths get the charge, and as such engage just the large Grimoire unit. Now, we'll average the chance of Grimoire working vs failing in our comparison here, and equate that 3++ 2/3rds of the time and 6++ 1/3rd of the time to a 4++ on average here. we get 7.5 wounds, round off to 8 ,from the Wraiths against the Hounds. and ~3.75 (round to 4) from the Hounds+Herald against the Wraiths. In this instance, the Hounds lose combat by 4, lets say on average they lose 3 wounds from Daemonic Instability.

From there, even if the other unit of 6 is able to get in a charge in the next turn, the Wraiths should eventually end up victorious once all is said and done. If we want to just assume Grimoir works, and simply assume a 3++, then that evens things up a lot more, but by the same token, even one round of it failing will result in a massacre of the Hounds.

*IF* the Flesh Hounds get off the charge, then the odds shift in their favor, but that Herald impairing their mobility makes it far more likely the Wraiths will initiate combat as opposed to either side having a roughly equal chance, shifting the favor over to the Wraiths.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.

The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.

And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.

The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.

Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.

Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.

In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.

I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.

I don't "want" the Wraiths to beat pretty much everything, just pointing out the large mismatch with the example you gave and the contingencies involved.

Now, two full units of Wraiths with whip coils is going to be worth 26 hounds with herald with grimoire and hatred locus.

Now, if we're assuming the Herald is accompanying the Flesh Hounds, that means the Flesh Hounds mobility is significantly impaired, moving and charging as Infantry instead of Beasts.

This presents an issue as it would indicate that the Wraiths would have the choice of when, how, and where to engage. The smaller unit will not be similarly impaired, but will almost certainly be wiped out if it attempts to charge first on its own. So we'll assume the Wraiths get the charge, and as such engage just the large Grimoire unit. Now, we'll average the chance of Grimoire working vs failing in our comparison here, and equate that 3++ 2/3rds of the time and 6++ 1/3rd of the time to a 4++ on average here. we get 7.5 wounds, round off to 8 ,from the Wraiths against the Hounds. and ~3.75 (round to 4) from the Hounds+Herald against the Wraiths. In this instance, the Hounds lose combat by 4, lets say on average they lose 3 wounds from Daemonic Instability.

From there, even if the other unit of 6 is able to get in a charge in the next turn, the Wraiths should eventually end up victorious once all is said and done. If we want to just assume Grimoir works, and simply assume a 3++, then that evens things up a lot more, but by the same token, even one round of it failing will result in a massacre of the Hounds.

*IF* the Flesh Hounds get off the charge, then the odds shift in their favor, but that Herald impairing their mobility makes it far more likely the Wraiths will initiate combat as opposed to either side having a roughly equal chance, shifting the favor over to the Wraiths.

IDK, the mobility of a large unit of Beasts with a single IC attached isn't so bad; the front beasts can still move 12", then the next rank 11", etc until you string a couple out to let the character stay attached.

I've never seen a whole unit move 6" just to allow one character to stay attached - usually, they are roughly the same speed but just more spread out.

oftenwrong wrote:
16 hounds and a juggernaut herald with locus and axe are 460 points. That’s how I run them.

But hounds aren’t that killy, they are 2 wounds and tend to stick around in combat. Boys and horrogant would do a better job.

Finally, a use for the 100+ Hormagaunts I have lying around.

So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?

AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.

So odd.

 Jancoran wrote:
So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?

AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.

So odd.

It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.

The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.

Yeah. Ordnance is silly. It's basically a "Snap-fire everything else keyword" for little benefit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Ordnance is silly. It's basically a "Snap-fire everything else keyword" for little benefit.

Which they cleverly worked around for the Doomsday ark by giving it the formerly "superheavy-only" rule "Primary Weapon", which gives the armor pen bonus but none of the downsides...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Ordnance is silly. It's basically a "Snap-fire everything else keyword" for little benefit.

Which they cleverly worked around for the Doomsday ark by giving it the formerly "superheavy-only" rule "Primary Weapon", which gives the armor pen bonus but none of the downsides...

Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.

So I raised a point in a list that I made that I hope gets some attention:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635241.page

The general assumption has been that every ch formation is spyder, 3 scarabs, 6 wraith with coils.

But what about just getting in the minimum to fit in more formations? Even a single wraith with RP is still a pain and a half to kill, and can still tie up units or smack rear armor on tanks for some damage. So I went for a more msu approach to the harvest to maximize the amount of disruption caused on the board by unanswered wraiths roaming about and doing as they please.

(Halfway shameless plug to get a conversation started on the list since it seems like 40k lists is an almost dead forum anytime I go there.)

The Decurion also though allows some really weird things though like 10 units of 5 man Flayed ones which is bizarre.

Hollismason wrote:
The Decurion also though allows some really weird things though like 10 units of 5 man Flayed ones which is bizarre.

How is that bizzare?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
So I raised a point in a list that I made that I hope gets some attention:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635241.page

The general assumption has been that every ch formation is spyder, 3 scarabs, 6 wraith with coils.

But what about just getting in the minimum to fit in more formations? Even a single wraith with RP is still a pain and a half to kill, and can still tie up units or smack rear armor on tanks for some damage. So I went for a more msu approach to the harvest to maximize the amount of disruption caused on the board by unanswered wraiths roaming about and doing as they please.

(Halfway shameless plug to get a conversation started on the list since it seems like 40k lists is an almost dead forum anytime I go there.)

Also, just to get this out there, I will never play that formation as only one spyder allowed. I've cleared it up with my friends, and while the wording is weird, there is no restriction on the formation itself. Plus, saying you can't add more to the unit would also mean you can't add options to the spyder either.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.

So it can use its Gauss Flayers.
And because Relentless affects Ordnance, but not Primary Weapon.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?

AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.

So odd.

It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.

The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.

I got all that already. What I want to know is, why? Lost the Door attack also. Same points. I mean maybe Im missing an important reason or balance they were trying to strike but it just seems like the Monolith which is iconic, kinda just isn't.