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Seriously, dude. Culexus assassin makes GKs cry. S5AP1 attack with 3 shots, plus up to 3 more from your own WC pool, plus 1 for each ML of psykers within 12". Then, no armor saves allowed in cc. I have watched that mother shred whole squads of previously invisible grey knight terminators.

Hide him midfield and those GKs can't get to within their 24" threat range without all their precious buffs going bye-bye.

I feel that the following armies released during this edition are better suited as an allied detachment or formation:

Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Grey Knights

Funnily enough they were all released prior to the top tier codices that followed. So if you're willing to run two different factions I think AM can still be quite competitive and obviously battle brothers is a great thing for all Imperial armies.

 Runic wrote:
IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.

I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Runic wrote:
IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.

I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.

This is easy. Space Marines pay for an overvalued 3+ save. Storm Troopers pay for an overvalued ability to negate that 3+ save.

It's a way to make a competitive army with your guard if you want to win some games - it's not the end of the world. Allies can be a lot of fun. Admech or IK could be very interesting bringing into the mix and still be a fluffy army theme.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Runic wrote:
IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.

I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.

So if the Inquisition, Assassins, Knights and Fortifications were in the IG codex instead of just random dataslates and gak, you'd use them?

Part of the overarching theme of the IG is the massive variation in the regiments. I play Vostroyans. Vostroya is a Forgeworld-including some skiitari is totally fluffy. Or a Knight-I even know the household they're associated with and have been since 2nd edition.

I just don't get it. Including a 50-point inquisitor or 200 points of skiitari in a 2000 point guard list does SO much to multiply the power of the guard. Not cover their weaknesses with the strengths of another faction. Increase THEIR strengths, and make them perform like you want.

No offense MoO, but your list is terrible. If this is an average list from your meta, I can see why we disagree so much on what is considered valuable.

A few models (can you do conversions?) would really improve your army.

Psykers. Div in an army as strong at ranged fighting as IG is, and including their low BS, is very useful. Try to take some. As detailed, take inquisition psykers for various buffs.

Culexus and some of the other specialized killers might help you. This is more meta dependent. In other threads you've mentioned marines charging your tanks, an Eversor could defend them quite well.

Drop the HBs. HBs are terrible, in any and every army. They lack range, strength, and number of shots.

Melta are bad unless taken in a relatively large number and on a speedy unit that can be dropped. Plasma/flamers get a lot more mileage with the guard (meta dependent). If you take psykers I'd lean more towards plasma.

Don't you have to pay for Krak grenades? Don't pay for krak grenades.


I know that mono codex is weaker, but I don't try to mix codexes outside of the ones that were clearly meant to be mixed (like the 2 mentioned above), so I know where you are coming from. My main army is alpha legion, which I am forced to run as CSM (and I already have an Ultra Marine army for that) since the Chaos dex is a joke.

The IG codex can't keep up with the ultra strong eldar and necron armies, true. But your meta, from other threads, is nowhere near that bad. You should be fine with some list adjustments.
Anyway you can provide a battle report? I think the Inq Psyker will help a bit, and the eversor, but you seem to have problems will deepstrikers that can be fixed with deployment.

Hawky one of your problems can be seen immediately, and that is that you are not taking advatage of one of your best traits... and that is numbers.

Try dropping the Scions and picking up another battle tank or a demolisher battle tank...

You are giving up so much army by taking high points cost items. when you stood be trying to overwhelm your opponent. Kind of like an orc player that uses specialists instead of shoota boys...

Next time try going with just normal guardsmen and a couple tanks, and throw a couple plasma into the normal guard squads...

Also, you are playing against douchebags when it comes to the GK player, as in such a small points cost game and they are running pallys??!! Furthermore, if your SM opponent is bringing that much in a 750 point game then you need to make sure he is calculating points properly.

Look I want to point out that in the last two years the only time I have beaten orcs it when they have a stompa... if they spam boys then I am toast (however, I did just smoke a green tide thanks to objectives)

So remember, if you have an army that packs a ton of guys into 100 points then run with that, because sure, your guys die fast... but at 750 you should be outnumbering 3 to 1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I am sorry but I never saw the list that MoO posted, so I can not comment, however, I would literally bet any one on here a company of marines that if we played 1500 pts and you used vanilla marines without bikes I would smoke you with my guard once, and most likely tie once, and ... well my dice rolls would only hold out for so long.

Furthermore, if you are playing guard then you have really got to capitalize on your strengths which is armor and bodies... and the fact that in 1500 points you can put down 3-4 russes and 50-60 guys...

Rihgu wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Runic wrote:
IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.

I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.

This is easy. Space Marines pay for an overvalued 3+ save. Storm Troopers pay for an overvalued ability to negate that 3+ save.

S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9". Stormtroopers have never been particularly good. The AP3 schtick is really not something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

I play my guard as a mechanized, tank heavy force personally. Two Veteran Squads mounted in chimeras, with a third Veteran squad riding in a Valkyrie, Tank Commander Squadron (Vanquisher Commander & Exterminator backup tank), a stand alone Executioner with 3x Heavy Bolters & a Stubber up top, a pair of Griffon Mortars (Each it's own choice), and a Primaris Psyker. With this I also add an allied Cullexus Assassin. That's my 1500 point list & I have a good luck with it versus Marines and a variety of other opponents.

Try changing your list up, Run Grenadiers instead of forward Sentries, try to mount your squads into vehicles down the road, and put your list up in the Army List section for me. I'll look it over and see if I can help come up with some suggestions on tweaks to help.

That's all I've got to add for now. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Most of the time for large point games 1800+ I play the Steel Host. It has worked out for me more often than not.

Thyhadras wrote:
DaPino have you actually looked at how bad space marines are outside of the bikes and pods? Seriously, all of our armies have problems... for example... my nids are TERRIBLE because I do not want to buy the models to make them competitive. However, you will never hear me complain about them... (unless you make a comment about lictors not attacking when they appear from the foliage).

This is exactly what OP and me are talking about. You are saying how "bad space marines are outside of bikes and pods".

First of all, CSM and guard both don't een have the option to go this competitive route of "bikes and pods".
Second of all and now I'm speaking for CSM specifically. Just about everything in the CSM codex that has got a parallel in the SM codex is a crappy version of it's SM equivalent. When you say "This unit in my SM codex is bad" that means its CSM equivalent is probably even worse. My infantry costs the same and doesn't have ATSKNF and the units that have fearless are overcosted (except plague marines). My vehicles don't have power of the machine spirit and the SM equivelants never get taken because they're bad, so why should mine suddenly be good?

And you're talking about not having much unit variety? Well gak son, welcome to CSM. We've got a Nurgle DP, Plague marines, Heldrakes and Nurgle obliterators and that just about sums up the entirety of units that's worth taking in our codex because anything else you'll find somewhere else doing it better and cheaper. And even then you'll find more worth for your points in other codices (apart from maybe the plague marines).

Yoy are very correct some chaos player had to have pissed off gw at some point. .. however I imagine a nurgle bike army would fare very well. .. I hope they get some love soon. ...

Also guard still has leaf blower which is an expensive build but extremely violent

Commissar Benny wrote:
but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem?

It depends on ones perception. If you perceive that all Codices should be able to stand on their own ( inside a system that allows allies... even this notion should clarify how futile this is ) then you could perceive it is a problem. If you however see the game the way it factually is, a game that allows and encourages you to use allies, then there is no problem whatsoever.

It all comes down to one wishing to turn a game about armies+allies into a game about "just" armies, even when the rules allow the former and even encourage it. The age of the monocodice armies is mostly over, asfar as I'm concerned.

The problem manifests for certain people because they want the game to be something it simply isn't, or their army to do something it can't. No amount of tantrums will change neither.

How about instead just trying some allies? Like someone said above, it's not the end of the world. You can make it fluffy too ( I play Red Hunters and Grey Knights, and the Inquisition. )

It is this now ancient notion of monocodex armies, dating back to the days before the Great Cr... allies matrix was introduced, that makes some people think a Codex should be able to take on other Codices and their possible allies on their own. They shouldn't in my personal opinion, as the game in it's current state allows such a vast amount of diverse builds that every army has a huge weakness against something else and no singular faction is immune to a certain nasty build of another. In modern day 40K, allies are more the constant than the variable ( yes yes, your group can have 0 people who plays allies, I also have a group inwhich no Eldar player spams scatterbikes, doesn't change anything. )

Allies are a double edged blade, they help fix the issues of the books but they also allow some ridiculous combinations. If they were removed from the game, Codex balance would have to be near perfect for the game not to collapse back to how it was before allies ( a few books dominating all the rest. Currently, with allies, you can actually squash any book with almost any book using allies. )

"Every Codex should be balanced to stand against eachother 1vs1" - is a subjective notion of some. It's based on the sole notion of "I want it to be so." Perhaps it's homage is partial to the fact there used to be no allies. Perhaps these people rationalize that "in other games that's how it works." In any case, it is in no way better or more right than the concept of "Every Codex should be able to take allies in order to combat another army better."

If you decided one is better than the other, then that's your subjective opionion, and nothing more. A studio could, actually, design a game based deliberately on a system of allies rather than going 1v1. They are simply different approaches, none better than the other except in our subjective views.

I disagree Runic for two reasons. One, not all Codices have such excellent access to allies as IoM armies do. Two, GW itself doesn't hold to this paradigm of CAD+Ally. Eldar and Necrons can run fine by themselves as can C:SM.

Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."

Regarding IoM, while they have the biggest selection of Battle Brothers level armies, most armies can ally in quite well in order to buff up their power. Whether it's always fluffy or not is a different thing. Both Eldar codices can ally with eachother and there's some powerful combos there. CSM can ally with Daemons or Daemonkin if they so wish, and now have a big selection of Forgeworld stuff to go by. All IoM armies can ally with eachother. I've seen Necrons and Tyranids allied to great effect. I'd say only Tyranids really suffer in the ally department, and even they can do well without allies these days ( but the builds are few, I'll give you that. )

In the end it comes down to how many personal restrictions a player sets upon himself.

Weeelll considering that those are recent releases I would say that the age may be returning and the CAD+ally paradigm is a relic of pre-Decurion 40k.

In a way it would be cool, and I'd like it personally. But should that happen we better pray to the Emperor that the books would be balanced with eachother, or it would be a disaster.

Personally I suspect they wouldn't be balanced at all, just like they never have been, and while I dislike Hive Tyrants supporting a Tau Fire Cadre, I'll take the allies system over the old way inwhich a single book dominated all the rest for a full edition.

I guess so. We'll just have to wait and see how things will play out.

I know that this is such a non-statement but GW is nothing if not unpredictable. They may make all their codices from now in the 2015 Necron style. C:SM may be the last. They may release Age of the Emperor next year and end the whole formation thing all together.

When it comes to allies, xenos are screwed, no way around it.

We just don't interact with each other, so the best you can do is get a few power units of both sides, but you never have a true combo like IoM armies do.

IoM armies saying "no allies" is honestly silly, considering that in the fluff NONE of them work on its own.

 master of ordinance wrote:

tau tse tung wrote:I hope it doesn't seem like I'm rubbing it in you're face or anything, but I would lose all the time with guard in 5 and 6th but now I'm winning against broken lists like smashfether and even 30k ordo reducer. Yeah it's not a win every time army but that's the fun. Bring some flyers and deathstrike and I'm sure you're luck can turn around before the new codex drops!

Good luck from a fellow guardsman!

Thanks man, want to swap opponents?

Funny - i've never heard of the 'ordo reducer' before. Those guys must suck really badly.

If you end up near stroud with an army i'll be happy to oblige you with a game - fyi: i prefer 6th edition and i play Ordo Reductor.

Chill, dude, autocorrect turns Reductor into reducer for me too.

Really?

Damn you microsoft - I call techno-heresy on that one!

Thyhadras wrote:
Yoy are very correct some chaos player had to have pissed off gw at some point. .. however I imagine a nurgle bike army would fare very well. .. I hope they get some love soon. ...

It was called Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5 edition...

And no, I fully expect with how GW has left our model line to rot, that we'll likely be 'accidently' missed in the codex line-up, only for Hastings' rumor to be proven true and GW drops the codices altogether.
Guard may have gotten a book that's aged very quickly, but at least you guys have a solid model line to pick from, plus the godly IoM ally games to play off of... What do we have? A model line that's 'better' than only the long forgotten Sisters, and looks like utter gak outside of the TWO new unit kits we've received! I mean for feth's sake, Marines have now had two freaking plastic Devastator kits released, and we're still stuck with our ancient and unplayable Finecrap Havoc garbage.
And then there's the fact that outside of the Raptors kit, none of our infantry kits come with better than 50% of their actual options... (despite those options having seen pretty much 0 change across the past 17+ years! )

The only good things right now about Chaos is the fact that we have Daemons, and if you can get it, the FW rules. So much for being the Imperium's greatest threat...

 Runic wrote:
Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."

Yeah, it's mostly over! Except, y'know, the three or four newest books...

The biggest problem in my mind is that GW do a 180 every 4-6 months. So 3 or 4 books will be way toned down (Guard, Orks, Space Wolves, Blood Angels in the most recent case though Wolves at least can still perform pretty well) and then they go for 3 or 4 balls to the wall crazy books that make the armies that came just before play with a handicap. Sadly, it appears that some of the "handicap" armies repeat themselves over editions (Tyranids barring one or two powerful units/ builds, for one) while others that were complained about in previous editions (Eldar) don't even get nerfed or points increases. They actually get CHEAPER and/ or BETTER. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

As far as the op and Guard is concerned, I bought into Guard in a pretty big way because I loved the WW1 WW2 aesthetic and theme of bodies as far as the eye can see broken up only by lumbering tanks and APCs and the occasional foxhole with a few heavy gunners in it. I acquired well over 120 infantry, a dozen or so tanks and around 15 heavy weapon teams and I've never played a game with them. Ever. I have two different Codexes and still a hell of a long way to go before I feel like I'd have any of the necessary tools to play to a minor defeat.

It's disheartening, and it affects my desire to paint so many bodies. I have a similar problem with my Orks. For either army, my best friend right now is a $60 artillery kit. The Guard one at least costs 85 points in-game. The Ork one as little as 18 but caps out at 30 iirc.

I have played both Tau and Guard. Tau are good, but everything being just a liiiitle too pricey makes them kinda weak. They get some great stuff, definitely, but they can't fit enough in. A lot of the stuff is also a bit crap.

On the guard point of view - I've actually turned to guard, from playing Tau. I share your love for them and what they stand for in the universe. That alone allows me to enjoy each game, even when I lose, cos I know all my dudes died being valiant heroes in a world of OP. I also disagree with everyone saying that you need allies. Every army IS better than guard, BUT they are better at SPECIFIC things. Tau are good at gun line, marines are tougher, Eldar are faster. BUT guard aren't bad at anything. They are the jack-of-all-trades. I've won roughly 70% of games with guard. They are one of the most versatile armies IMO. I could just be lucky, but in my experience they are actually more fun to play than other races like Tau. Just because Guard aren't OP in a particular field, doesn't mean they are useless.

Just throwin out a thought here... does anyone play or might be interested in playing Star Trek Attack Wing, D&D Attack Wing, Star Wars X-Wing, or HeroClix at all? I know none are as in depth as 40K or have as much detail as Warhammer models, but they aren't overly expensive to get into either. I mean, if you want a ton of ships/Clix or to be super competitive, it may cost about as much as Warhammer does. That said, the cost of playing HeroClix, Attack Wing, or Clix isn't prohibitive if you'd like to play a different game for the time being until a new IG codex is printed.

If the above isn't your thing, I understand and hate that things aren't fun for you anymore. Hopefully something will change for you soon.

Just my $0.02

SG

 Runic wrote:
Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."

Regarding IoM, while they have the biggest selection of Battle Brothers level armies, most armies can ally in quite well in order to buff up their power. Whether it's always fluffy or not is a different thing. Both Eldar codices can ally with eachother and there's some powerful combos there. CSM can ally with Daemons or Daemonkin if they so wish, and now have a big selection of Forgeworld stuff to go by. All IoM armies can ally with eachother. I've seen Necrons and Tyranids allied to great effect. I'd say only Tyranids really suffer in the ally department, and even they can do well without allies these days ( but the builds are few, I'll give you that. )

In the end it comes down to how many personal restrictions a player sets upon himself.

Almost over and somehow all the post decurion books can be played fine solo. Worse this means that if I take ally to a bad army, and my oppont will tak ally for his good army, the gap between us will only get wider.

Eldar or marines can have powerful combos, but they don't have to be playable. Only thing worse would be if IG was only playable with FW.

BUT guard aren't bad at anything.

No fast moving objectiv takers. No resilient units, no good anti tank units, no ways to counter LoW. No ability to counter FMC. They sure are not bad, just fine as long as opponents don't use drop pods, grav, D weapons, meq , dakka tyrants or other FMC, no WK , no NDKs, no cent stars and somehow the mission played is not maelstorms.

I think guard can overcome drop pods, but they do have a lot of problems.

Martel732 wrote:
I think guard can overcome drop pods, but they do have a lot of problems.

A lot in the sense that you can list many, but not a lot that comes up in a battle.
I'd rank them mid tier with allies.