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 jmurph wrote:
even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery

arrogant man makes deal with powerful evil being that comes back to haunt him

let's call it Doctor Strange 2

 jmurph wrote:
I just find that somewhat unbelievable given Dormammu's supposed power level. Likewise, a being like that should probably be able to sense the stone and getting ahold of it would probably be a Bad Thing (see also Loki). Likewise, even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery. Deals with the devil don't usually turn out very well, after all (ask John Constantine!). Maybe even using that as a link to Mordo?

Instead, they do typical all flash/brute force villain thing.

Oh well, there is a gauntlet to fill!

A being with no concept of time and whose goal is to bring universes into its own time-free state is not really going to be able to use a stone which grants it control of time.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spoiler:

Is it even possible to destroy an infinity stone? Because I'm pretty sure that is what would be required to cancel that time loop effect except the specific command.

They deal with this in Thor 2.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
I just find that somewhat unbelievable given Dormammu's supposed power level. Likewise, a being like that should probably be able to sense the stone and getting ahold of it would probably be a Bad Thing (see also Loki). Likewise, even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery. Deals with the devil don't usually turn out very well, after all (ask John Constantine!). Maybe even using that as a link to Mordo?

Instead, they do typical all flash/brute force villain thing.

Oh well, there is a gauntlet to fill!

A being with no concept of time and whose goal is to bring universes into its own time-free state is not really going to be able to use a stone which grants it control of time.

Why? Dormammu wasn't bound by time in his dimension due to it being nonexistant (which then gets into problems of if the stone would even work there....), it does not mean he is unaware of the concept or of rules of the various dimensions he brings into his own. Quite the opposite. He seems adept at manipulating at breaking the laws of dimensions to the point where he can basically consume them. As portrayed, he clearly becomes aware of the loop, indicating he understands what's going on and what the source is. What makes far less sense is why a being of this age and intellect continues to just smash Strange instead of say just restraining him and torturing him for information. He could drag one instance out into an eternity confident in knowing it would not hinder his attempt. Likewise, he would quickly realize that while Strange could be destroyed, the amulet containing the stone would survive despite Stranges annihilation. Every time.

It gets even trickier if D decided not to destroy Strange and continue. Since the loop triggers on his death, just incapacitate him and continue. Heck, he could even manipulate that as a reset point to learn and continue improving his plans!

Both Strange and Dormammu remember what happened in previous instances. The point of Strange's trap is to torture Dormammu. By setting the trap, Strange has already accepted the suffering he will undergo - that is a powerful edge over Dormammu. This is actually the denouement of Strange's character arc, too.

 jmurph wrote:
What makes far less sense is why a being of this age and intellect continues to just smash Strange instead of say just restraining him and torturing him for information.

Being a cosmic entity doesn't mean that one is super rational when angry. I imagine almost never being challenged means even a slight challenge to his authority would cause him to lose his cool.

Plus he was being tortured. He is probably not used to that, either.

I suspect what they meant when they said there was no time there, was that it was like some magic realm where no one ages and it's always Saturday. Clearly we watch time pass there, so it exists in some fashion. The fact that Dormammu recognises he's in a loop show he's aware of what came before and is able to accurately predict what will come after. He clearly has a sense of the progression of time. The issue becomes why Strange was able to endure the brutality of Dormammu's assaults longer than Dormammu could endure being looped.

Exactly Kojiro. I don't know how he was being "tortured"; at most, it was a minor inconvenience. I suppose he could have been angry, but keep in mind that this is a being that supposedly predates our existence and has plans that span into eons. I would think that he would figure out something really nasty, really quick. Like I said, he could literally just seize the amulet from Strange. Or do something far more insidious, like lock Strange into a spell, forcing him to mentally endure *his* worst moments, fears, etc. over and over in a single moment, perhaps making it look like the amulet malfunctioned, until he gives the word to break that loop. He could even go so far as to make it looks like he has yielded to Strange, the plan fails and D is absorbing everything. That would be super fun for a bad guy.

Heck, he could also just reach through space and grab the girl for the classic bad guy routine. Stop the loop, she lives; if not, it will not be you who suffers endlessly.....

Or just immobilize Strange (think permanent coma, or even a mental illusion that let's it look like Strange won, got healed, is back with his woman, etc.) and continue rocking. The loop won't trigger if Strange lives.

I didn't like the movie but the scene in question was definitely the best part. The whole point of the story was Strange's arc from selfish to selfless. In story terms, Dromammu is obviously the symbol of Strange's own character flaws. Hell, Benedict Cumberbatch even played Dormammu. Asking why Dormammu didn't act patiently and with self-awareness is like asking why Strange fails to act with patience and self-awareness at the beginning of the film.

It's not the nature of the sacrifice that I don't buy. I get it, Strange is being selfless and becoming a hero. What doesn't jive is his ability to maintain the sacrifice.

Imagine a soldier who, in a moment of heroism, throws himself on a grenade. Then he dies, painfully, shortly after. Heroic as hell. Now imagine some wizard curses the soldier, putting him in a groundhog loop at the moment of his choice. How many times can he do it? Remembering each time? Because that's what Strange is doing, except he's put himself in the loop!

It's also worth noting the idea is stupid because it rests on the assumption D will break first despite the massively one sided difficulty​ on Strange and utter ignorance of D's psychology. Let's take the idea of him having no concept of time at face value. Imagine Strange sets up the loop and, true to form, D simply doesn't recognise a temporal loop? Strange's plan rests on D's explicit ability to understand time, a phenomena he supposedly has no concept of that doesn't exist in his realm. That's a flawed plan by any stretch.

It isn't just a temporal loop though it is a temporal prison and loop, and one powered by the time gem itself so it isn't a weak cell that one can break out of. As for the pain endured by Strange, well, it wouldn't be a sacrifice if there was no downside.

Oh I'm well aware he's trapped. But again, that's not the complaint. The complaint pertains to the pain- the sacrifice as you describe it- that Strange is enduring, which is that fundamentally pain breaks people. When torturing someone there's a concern that the information obtained may not be accurate or useful, but that's not a concern Dormammu has. It's not 'talk and I'll end the torture'. It's simply 'end the torture when you want'.

In short it seems like a heroic choice, and it is, but by virtue of making it ongoing it's not something any mortal can feasibly maintain.

The other problem with the scene is that after some time Strange appears bored by the interaction, as if it's tedious. That I think hurts it more than anything else because if this is merely tedious, it's not heroic. It comes across like Colossus facing down a street thug- swing away all you like, sooner or later you'll give up. My mere presence will win me this battle. I'd have liked to see Strange suffer each death and to see him struggle to send himself back in, time and time again. That'd be heroic.

Maybe you are expecting realistic trauma from a movie that is pretty ambivalent on that score, at least as far as physical violence goes. And I def think you and jmurph are both underestimating the frustration, confusion, anger, and I daresay fear Strange is able to inspire in Dormammu - an entity plainly not used to anything but having its way. Being able to walk into suffering is a crucial advantage over a being that has never had to even consider it. Keep in mind, this is supposed to be a metaphysical moment, not really a materialist one. It's not about physical pain so much as the strength that flows from personal growth.

I am definitely questioning those as they are distinctly human, mortal emotions. As I pointed out, an extraplanar creature with plans spanning centuries doesn't necessarily react the same way. And even my puny human brain quickly recognized ways to potentially exploit the situation, especially with a seizable galactic artifact in play.

Remember Guardians of the Galaxy? A human just grabbing the stone was enough to start screwing with things.

But, I know, powerful white, hetero guy must save the day by forcing his will on a more primally powerful but fundamentally different outsider that poses an existential threat. And virtue and power become interchangeable. Basic western hero moral story.

 jmurph wrote:
powerful white, hetero guy

 jmurph wrote:
virtue and power become interchangeable

that on the other hand is a good point

but it is also the point - you just summed up how "magic" works in this movie

and yep I think it's boring, which is why I don't really like the picture - however, the scene in question works given how magic works