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 doctortom wrote:
I have tried to understand what you are saying. I have rejected it. If you KNOW you get a single turret, you KNOW that it can not become multiple turrets because you do not HAVE multiple turrets. And, as I point out above, they all have ACCESS to that upgrade - when it's an upgrade singular that means only one of those models can be using it in a turn, which makes sense when there is only the ONE turret to start with. You have mistaken for possessing the turret with possessing access to the turret. The unit has one turret that any one model in the unit in range of the turret can use during a turn. When they're split off, any one of the models in range of the turret can use the turret during a turn. THAT follows the rules without breaking the rules by having A turret not be A turret but multiple turretS.
...
Some people want to house rule only one member of the unit getting the turret - there may be an argument for that, but the old unit did have permission for everyone to use the turret. They just never had permission for every model to HAVE a turret.

Is there a newer version than the one in the Kau'yon book? The Kau'yon does not give the turret to any model nor is it used by any model, it is something the player deploys in coherency with the unit it was purchased with.

That's part of why his point #2 falls flat, even though he pointed out this exact thing that it is not used or assigned to a model when attempting to counter the banner and Heavy Weapon Platform similarities, he still uses it to justify his position.

 doctortom wrote:
EDIT: To beat the horse a little more, but to summarize what I think your interpretation problem is, you haven't actually properly defined WHAT the unit upgrade is. The unit upgrade is 1 turret that everybody in the unit has permission to access (but only one per turn). If you split up the unit for a kill team everybody gets the permission to access the 1 turret still, but it's still only one turret, and - like it would work in 40k - only one model would get to use the turret each turn. I think what you're missing is that when they're discussing unit upgrades, multiple pieces of equipment being bought means everybody gets the equipment. if the rules say you get "a" piece of equipment, you only get the one that the whole unit gets access to. You can split the access permission so every model can still access the one turret, but you don't turn the one piece of equipment into multiple pieces because you never had permission for multiple pieces of that equipment for the people in that original unit.

Be careful. This is where I was accused of not knowing RAW and purportedly ignored.

I believe the Kill Team version is the Kau'yon version. Someone else should verify that, though.

Certainly, there's no mention of this being an updated version of the unit.

 doctortom wrote:
I believe the Kill Team version is the Kau'yon version. Someone else should verify that, though.

Certainly, there's no mention of this being an updated version of the unit.

Do the new Kill Team rules provide datasheets for all allowed units and/or their Wargear, or are we still using the datasheets and Wargear from other documents?

Remember, Kau'yon and the new Kill Team rules are almost a year apart, and I don't think there were extra Kill Team rules in the Damocles books (I could be wrong, I just realized I had access to it, and have not reviewed it in depth).

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I believe the Kill Team version is the Kau'yon version. Someone else should verify that, though.

Certainly, there's no mention of this being an updated version of the unit.

Do the new Kill Team rules provide datasheets for all allowed units and/or their Wargear, or are we still using the datasheets and Wargear from other documents?

Remember, Kau'yon and the new Kill Team rules are almost a year apart, and I don't think there were extra Kill Team rules in the Damocles books (I could be wrong, I just realized I had access to it, and have not reviewed it in depth).

You use the regular Datasheets, the Kill Team box only includes datasheets for the models included in the box - and they're just a reprint of the latest datasheets for those units.

KT simply adds a few rules to the gameplay , like Every Man for Himself or what it's called, and bans others - like Brotherhood of Psykers.

nekooni wrote:
You use the regular Datasheets, the Kill Team box only includes datasheets for the models included in the box - and they're just a reprint of the latest datasheets for those units.

KT simply adds a few rules to the gameplay , like Every Man for Himself or what it's called, and bans others - like Brotherhood of Psykers.

I do not currently have access to the new Kill Team rules or box, which is why I was asking if any were updated beyond my old data. Just trying to be aware of the possibilities outside of my access.

It seems as though the description of the turret fits to the blatantly broken interpretation that everyone gets their own. They are not carried, but dropped by ships. They self destruct when at risk of tampering (if left unattended or when the enemy is within 2") and new models can be set up whenever the unit doesn't move. It is not the same turret. If it self destructed then it can't be the same and must therefore show that the unit has multiple turrets available to them, but can only have 1 at a time per unit. If the Kill Team becomes units of 1 then the logical (but stupid) RAW interpretation is that every model can get a turret, as long as they don't move.

Personally I think that obsession over broken RAW rather than looking at RAI is the sign of the sort of power gamer that nobody will want to play with, but as the rules are written the DS8 is an overly powerful, broken game wrecker.

Chairman Tau wrote:
It seems as though the description of the turret fits to the blatantly broken interpretation that everyone gets their own. They are not carried, but dropped by ships. They self destruct when at risk of tampering (if left unattended or when the enemy is within 2") and new models can be set up whenever the unit doesn't move. It is not the same turret. If it self destructed then it can't be the same and must therefore show that the unit has multiple turrets available to them, but can only have 1 at a time per unit. If the Kill Team becomes units of 1 then the logical (but stupid) RAW interpretation is that every model can get a turret, as long as they don't move.

Personally I think that obsession over broken RAW rather than looking at RAI is the sign of the sort of power gamer that nobody will want to play with, but as the rules are written the DS8 is an overly powerful, broken game wrecker.

First I want to point out that your argument is using fluff by utilizing the description of the turret self destructing at the possibility of tampering or capture. That's in the description blurb, but not the rules. The actual rules have as the last sentence:

Should a unit's tactical support turret ever be removed as a casualty, it can be returned to play in a future Movement phase as described above.

That specifically references the same turret that died as coming back. The rules have no mention of multiple turrets. RAW does not support anything about the turret becoming another turret, because the same turret returns to play.

Second, every other argument within the thread that provides evidence that you are wrong.

I just realized that I doubt there's an actual RAI for this too, on top of there being no RAW. I seriously don't believe when they were making Kill Team that they had any "Rules As Intended" for this situation in mind, and they definitely didn't when they made the turret.

Chairman Tau wrote:
It seems as though the description of the turret fits to the blatantly broken interpretation that everyone gets their own. They are not carried, but dropped by ships. They self destruct when at risk of tampering (if left unattended or when the enemy is within 2") and new models can be set up whenever the unit doesn't move. It is not the same turret. If it self destructed then it can't be the same and must therefore show that the unit has multiple turrets available to them, but can only have 1 at a time per unit. If the Kill Team becomes units of 1 then the logical (but stupid) RAW interpretation is that every model can get a turret, as long as they don't move.

Personally I think that obsession over broken RAW rather than looking at RAI is the sign of the sort of power gamer that nobody will want to play with, but as the rules are written the DS8 is an overly powerful, broken game wrecker.

BossJakadakk dealt with the actual rules aspect showing why what you are saying won't work. But it's also worth commenting that it's highly interesting that you're complaining about the people using "broken" RAW are powergamers when they're they ones pointing out that one turret doesn't turn into 12 turrets. You would think saying that turning one turret into 12 turrets (which is HIPWA with a couple of people, not RAW) would be the overly powerful, broken game wrecker, not the RAW that there's only the one turret that is purchased at the start of the game.

I think the "RAW" that makes 1 turret become 12 turrets is the "broken RAW" he's talking about, and that anyone who tries to play it that way would be the powergamer who nobody will want to play with

I think you're probably right, but it's not RAW - broken or not - just a misreading.

 doctortom wrote:
I think you're probably right, but it's not RAW - broken or not - just a misreading.

True that

So I didn't want to start a new topic just for this question, it's slightly off topic but fits in slightly. In the FO bit on page 6 of the kill team book it say "A kill team must consist of at least 4 non vehicle models." does this mean a full jetbike only list isn't possible. I know that it's adaptable and so on but if GW did an official KT event this full jet bike list wouldn't be allowed.

Except how you believe this works isn't how list building works. After you build your list, just because you're playing Kill Team doesn't mean your list gets adjusted magically due to Kill Team Voodoo.

You buy 12 Fire Warriors when you build your list, then buy ONE turret for that unit.

For this example, we'll say that was your entire list, just to keep it simple.

You go to deploy. Kill Team requires you break the 12 models up into single man units. This does not mean you can break the rules of building your initial list. Meaning you do not get free turrets for every single Fire Warrior.

If Kill Team made you list build on a model to model basis, you'd be correct that every Fire Warrior could have a turret...IF each model payed for it. But they didn't.

In essence, RAW, the turret upgrade DOESN'T WORK. It simply breaks due to how Kill Team breaks the core rules of 40k to make it work.

You really have no choice but to make your own personal interpretations on how this upgrade SHOULD work.

By your definition, no one in the unit has turrets even if you paid for it to begin with, because KT Voodoo magic changes your list apparently, meaning that the unit you bought for upgrades no longer exists (And it isn't assigned to a particular model at the time of purchase) technically, because they are all their own unit now, blah blah. It makes no sense.

Saying that they all get a turret is merely your understanding, but it isn't, in fact, RAW. if you follow list building by the book, and you're saying you get free turrets...you're wrong. It's really that simple. When you built your list, you did not buy 12 turrets. You bought 1. A unit of Space Marine bikers buying mines is apples to oranges as the upgrade specifies you are buying multiple mines, and every model gets them. If the mine upgrade said 'the unit may by A cluster mine", your comparison would be more valid. The wording is very particular.

 daemonish wrote:
So I didn't want to start a new topic just for this question, it's slightly off topic but fits in slightly. In the FO bit on page 6 of the kill team book it say "A kill team must consist of at least 4 non vehicle models." does this mean a full jetbike only list isn't possible. I know that it's adaptable and so on but if GW did an official KT event this full jet bike list wouldn't be allowed.

Jetbikes are not vehicles, they have a toughness value, not an AV. A jetbike army would be legal as far as I can tell.

 daemonish wrote:
So I didn't want to start a new topic just for this question, it's slightly off topic but fits in slightly. In the FO bit on page 6 of the kill team book it say "A kill team must consist of at least 4 non vehicle models." does this mean a full jetbike only list isn't possible. I know that it's adaptable and so on but if GW did an official KT event this full jet bike list wouldn't be allowed.

Look at how Vehicles are defined as a unit type. Look at where Jet Bikes are listed in Unite Types. Do you see similarities here?

Just because a Jet Bike is a vehicle in our lives, doesn't mean they are Vehicles in the game.

BossJakadakk wrote:
I think the "RAW" that makes 1 turret become 12 turrets is the "broken RAW" he's talking about, and that anyone who tries to play it that way would be the powergamer who nobody will want to play with

Exactly what he said.

Clearly there is only meant to be 1 turret, and it does not instantly get taken out of play for being a unit of 1. The question should simply be whether any model in the squad can respawn the turret, or if it should be tied to 1 model.

Chairman Tau wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
I think the "RAW" that makes 1 turret become 12 turrets is the "broken RAW" he's talking about, and that anyone who tries to play it that way would be the powergamer who nobody will want to play with

Exactly what he said.

Clearly there is only meant to be 1 turret, and it does not instantly get taken out of play for being a unit of 1. The question should simply be whether any model in the squad can respawn the turret, or if it should be tied to 1 model.

Four pages and this is literally the only thing I need to know. Can anyone answer just THIS question?

 AesSedai wrote:

Chairman Tau wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
I think the "RAW" that makes 1 turret become 12 turrets is the "broken RAW" he's talking about, and that anyone who tries to play it that way would be the powergamer who nobody will want to play with

Exactly what he said.

Clearly there is only meant to be 1 turret, and it does not instantly get taken out of play for being a unit of 1. The question should simply be whether any model in the squad can respawn the turret, or if it should be tied to 1 model.

Four pages and this is literally the only thing I need to know. Can anyone answer just THIS question?

I saw a decent write up in the tactics section for why someone believes it is able to jump around, and that is how my LGS has decided to try it to see if it's too powerful (the models still came from the unit that bought the turret), but I know a lot of people have been just fine ruling that it sticks to one model. Essentially, it's house ruling at this point, with being able to jump around probably closer to RAW by virtue of the turret still belonging to each of the fire warriors. It just becomes something that begs the question "Do we need to nerf this?" to a lot of people, and the answer will change from group to group.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:

Chairman Tau wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
I think the "RAW" that makes 1 turret become 12 turrets is the "broken RAW" he's talking about, and that anyone who tries to play it that way would be the powergamer who nobody will want to play with

Exactly what he said.

Clearly there is only meant to be 1 turret, and it does not instantly get taken out of play for being a unit of 1. The question should simply be whether any model in the squad can respawn the turret, or if it should be tied to 1 model.

Four pages and this is literally the only thing I need to know. Can anyone answer just THIS question?

I saw a decent write up in the tactics section for why someone believes it is able to jump around, and that is how my LGS has decided to try it to see if it's too powerful (the models still came from the unit that bought the turret), but I know a lot of people have been just fine ruling that it sticks to one model. Essentially, it's house ruling at this point, with being able to jump around probably closer to RAW by virtue of the turret still belonging to each of the fire warriors. It just becomes something that begs the question "Do we need to nerf this?" to a lot of people, and the answer will change from group to group.

Pretty much this. There are literally no rules to govern how we are supposed to handle this, so anything decided will be a House Rule. Just make sure everyone is on the same page before lists are written.

Strictest is "the unit no longer exists, so the turret cannot be deployed near any model". Not exactly fair to the Tau player, but a lot of Wargear is useless for Kill Team as it is written in the codex.

Least strict is "all the models can from the unit which purchased it, so the turret can be deployed near any of them". This is best for the Tau player, but it can be a little too powerful against other players, as it bounces around the map.

Middle ground is "turret can only be deployed near one model of the original unit, and it can only deploy/stay deployed near that model for the entire game". This allows the Tau player to use it, but prevents it from being "musical chairs" with its location. The Tau player will have to think which model he wants to use it near.

I think the individual unit rules for kill team are wrongly used.
I think the unit acts as its exact entry from the codex. but units do not need to adhere to unit coherency.
and any skills that require unit coherency cant be used unless they are within 2' of each other ie "look out sir"
buffs that effect a unit effect every model from the origial unit list entry. such as icons
skill gained from a certain model being in a unit only work within 2" of each other. ie hit and run or stealth/infiltrate

FuzzayD I realize you are new, so I will tell you this, it is frowned upon to resurrect threads that have left the first page. Especially threads that are from almost 6 months ago. Mod has been alerted to lock.

Generally, it's preferable to start a new thread on the same subject rather than "resurrect" a "dead" one by posting in it. Sometimes this is not possible because what you want to add to a conversation is a very specific response to that particular conversation. But that is probably not the case here, so locking it up. Thanks!