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Man I love coming to dakka and seeing accurate legal analysis. Thanks guys!

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I wouldn't assume Dakka's legal analysis is accurate. There are a couple of lawyers kicking around on the forum, I don't believe any of the ones who have identified themselves as lawyers have posted on this topic but maybe one of us is a secret lawyer

Yeah... I'm pretty sure we're all in the layman's arena here.


Best I can do is read stuff I find online (in the original post, I linked to a guy who does claim to be a lawyer, and he cites the case for the precedent set in terms of who is responsible for employee compensation.

He seemed to think that Wizards had no case, and that they'd best be settling the whole thing as quick as they can (he comparred it to a recent Uber case).



Actually, where this goes for me is to wonder what the legal status of a gaming support squad is. Press Gangers, Ninja Corps, etc. I would be very sad if none of them could continue to exist.

PP already dropped the Press Gang (possibly due to this case). I think there may have been significant differences between the Press Gang and Magic Judges, but I don't know enough about the law to know for sure.

You might be laymen, but most of what has been said is pretty accurate as far as employment law. Especially the "what makes someone an employee" and "What counts as wages."

 odinsgrandson wrote:
He seemed to think that Wizards had no case, and that they'd best be settling the whole thing as quick as they can (he comparred it to a recent Uber case).

First, I should make it clear that while I am a lawyer, I am not providing specific legal advice, and I am not your lawyer. I am merely providing general comment, and no attorney/client relationship should be construed.

The thing with cases like this is that they live or die in the motion to grant class status. If WOTC can block the plaintiffs from forming a class, that means there isn't a class action, and the damages go from all lost wages from every judge, to those that actually file a suit. At that point, WOTC can pick off the individual claims for pennies on the dollar, because if you're suing over minimum wage violations, you probably don't have a lot of resources, and $500 now is better than $5000 in a year. Very few companies concede the creation of the class, because the burden of proof is strongly on the plaintiff, and it's fairly cheap to litigate it. If they do get class status, then I would imagine WotC will settle quickly.

Actually, where this goes for me is to wonder what the legal status of a gaming support squad is. Press Gangers, Ninja Corps, etc. I would be very sad if none of them could continue to exist.

PP already dropped the Press Gang (possibly due to this case). I think there may have been significant differences between the Press Gang and Magic Judges, but I don't know enough about the law to know for sure.

This area is a bit greyer, but from my view, you can clearer distinguish the magic judges the WotC case really hinges on from Pressgangers and the like. Remember that the problem isn't the guy running Friday Night Magic or even a big prerelease at the shop. the problem is that the qualifiers and other very large events, had judges working long hours for no pay. In those situations, they appear not just to be "technically" employees, but also employees by a common sense standard. Because the organizer set the hours, and established all the procedures, and had a fairly tight control of how the judges acted, they appear to be an employer.

OTOH, when you look at a press ganger, they generally set the times they worked, they ran events as they saw fit, interpreted rules according to their own judgment, and provided all of their own tools. They look much more like a classical independent contractor. yes, they were compensated only in product, but that's okay for independent contractors.

If we look at the level of how totally kosher things here, here's a rough sketch:

At the top are when paid employees of a store or company run an event. Clearly employees, but also all rules are followed. This is pretty common at a lot of FLGS's, especially the bigger ones.

Next are where a TO uses store space to run an event. The TO represents a highly informal non-profit gaming club, and the store is donating space for their event. This is very common for 40k events. Sometimes there's an actual club, sometimes it's just the guys that game locally, but the TO can "volunteer" time to his gaming club.

then are situations where a TO is asked by a store, or a company runs a support program, to run an event, and may or may not be compensated with some product. This can be an independent contractor situation as long as the TO has broad discretion in running the event: setting the times, breaks, and format. This is also very common for 40k.

IMO, the above three are probably fine. You can be a paid employee, you can be a volunteer for a non-profit, and you can be an independent contractor.

Where things get murky are convention road crews, where they dont' really draw wages, but have expectations for hours worked, and the company has a lot of control. While people are comped in badges/lodging and maybe some meals, this is a pretty legit grey area. It's hard to call them independent contractors, because the company controls their work.

Next are judges or other event staff, who are not one of the primary organizers, working set hours, while not paid. At best, these are people helping a 40k TO, while also painting/hanging out for the day. At worst, their the magic judges.

As you can see, there is a really broad range of possibilities, and this lawsuit doesn't imply that support programs have to fold. in fact, it's worth pointing out that WOTC hasn't changed it's judge program, and they're the target of the lawsuit! I'd guess that PP wasn't seeing the benefit of pressgangers, and pulled the plug. I'd guess they're comfortable with people thinking this lawsuit was a factor, because companies making wronged people seeking redress appear the villians is a play as old as time.

Ok- so the class status is the meat of the game here.

Can you help us layfolk to know how that is decided?

I mean, it seems pretty straightforward to me that whatever is legal for a few Judges would be the same as for all of the other Judges (the rules from WOTC are the same for all of the judges).

What would they have to prove in order to obtain class status?

More or less they'd need to show that the wrongdoing of the company was widespread enough that the people in the class all have the same (or close enough) damages. They also need to show that the case(s) would be better litigated in one go, instead of with tens or thousands, or whatever.

I'm just pulling from law school. So what I'm saying isn't to be considered legal advice, and I am not an expert on class action suits. If you want to bring a suit, you need to contact an attorney in your state.

Thanks- I've never been a judge, do I don't need personal legal advise (I'm just a curious member of the community who wants to see how this might change things at my LGS).

Honestly, we know that there are many judges, and we also know that none of them have been compensated for their time. At least from what I've seen, all the arguments center around company policies that are applied to all judges.

What would be the argument against granting them class action status?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Honestly, we know that there are many judges, and we also know that none of them have been compensated for their time. At least from what I've seen, all the arguments center around company policies that are applied to all judges.

Point of order - MTG Judges have been compensated, but the question is if a, the compensation was suitable; and b, whether they qualify for employment status, leading to specific employment benefits.

Ah, yes, you are right about the facts there. They may or may not be employees, and if they are they may or may not have recieved some worker's rights (though definitely not others- like breaks or overtime).


But we're at the meta-legal level now. The big question is whether this case will win class action status (as Polonius pointed out)..


Personally, I can think of how one would argue in favor of granting class action, but I can't figure out what the arguments against class action would look like.


Of course, my legal training is limited to high school debate class.

So- can anyone try and give us a good argument against granting class action to the Judges?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So- can anyone try and give us a good argument against granting class action to the Judges?

The obvious one would be that they don't form a single class. There might be a case for the judges working at WOTC-run events like conventions or the pro tour, but the judge at a random local store tournament has no convincing claim against WOTC*. So if there's a legitimate class it would have to be the small subset of judges working under direct WOTC control, not all judges as the lawsuit seems to be aiming for.

*They might, however, have a claim against the local store that is employing them, but that would be a completely different lawsuit.

Thanks- that's a decent argument. Not all Judges are employees- only some of them (I wonder how large a class that would be, and if it would still pose a significant problem for WotC/Hasbro, or if they could handle that number just fine).


WotC have made the argument that local stores are Judge employers (it is implied in their official response to the lawsuit).

This was discussed by a lawyer whose blog I linked at the start. He dismissed this by citing cases where two or more organizations are responsible as employers. But even that could alter the landscape of the case (in some cases, Judges are LGS employees/owners who are being compensated for their time by the LGS).


But even at the local level, one of the things that Magic has going for it is the Friday night time slot. I mean, everywhere you go, the local stores have Friday Night Magic because that's how WotC have structure it. I honestly think that helps them keep their strong spot as a mainstay of gaming.

But that's also an extra layer of control that WotC exercises over the judges (ie- the hours of employment are not determined by the local store, but by WotC).

 odinsgrandson wrote:
But that's also an extra layer of control that WotC exercises over the judges (ie- the hours of employment are not determined by the local store, but by WotC).

But that's not really true. WOTC allows stores to use the FNM brand for friday night events, but doesn't set the exact hours, location, pay for the judges, prizes, entry fees, etc. Nor does WOTC choose which judge gets to work at which FNM event, as long as a store has a certified judge for the event they get to be sanctioned. And there are lots of sanctioned events outside of FNM that WOTC has no control over outside of the MTG game rules. The local store is 100% responsible for setting the hours (and other terms) of employment and finding a judge to take the job.

And... the initial answer is "Nope"...

A federal judge in California has dismissed a proposed class-action labor lawsuit brought in late 2015 by a man who says that he has now worked for more than 20 years as a "judge" in Magic: the Gathering tournaments and demands to be paid.

In the court ruling, which was issued Wednesday, US District Judge Edward Davila sided with the defendant, Wizards of the Coast. The judge noted that, while Paul Yale’s years of experience to master all of the details of the popular card game and to become certified as a tournament arbiter takes time and extensive knowledge, “the complaint makes clear that Defendant’s program is purely voluntary and could be abandoned at any time.”

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/real-judge-no-you-dont-have-to-be-paid-as-a-magic-the-gathering-judge/

I'm hoping this is one of those things where the quote doesn't accurately sum up the larger legal ruling because any job (with the exception of certain contracts I guess) is "voluntary and can be abandoned at any time".

The difference being that a "job" has a defined pay structure, whereas "volunteering" says upfront that you will NOT be paid salary or wages.

Yeah, I was just wondering how exactly companies can distinguish between volunteer work and paid work.


Ultimately, this ruling is good for the gaming community. It means that small companies that rally their fan base to promote their games aren't necessarily 'employing' them.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Yeah, I was just wondering how exactly companies can distinguish between volunteer work and paid work.


Ultimately, this ruling is good for the gaming community. It means that small companies that rally their fan base to promote their games aren't necessarily 'employing' them.

They can define it in the contract

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Yeah, I was just wondering how exactly companies can distinguish between volunteer work and paid work.

Ultimately, this ruling is good for the gaming community. It means that small companies that rally their fan base to promote their games aren't necessarily 'employing' them.

They can define it in the contract

Dollars to donuts the volunteer registration specifically states that no employer-employee relationship is formed.

As a bitter and jaded ex-MTG player, anything that causes WotC financial harm or potentially kills MTG, however small, is a-ok in my eyes. Lets hope this gets reversed on appeal.

Here are some insider information behind what is going on with the lawsuit. I know the lawsuit is over for now, but this video gives decent insight as to what was really going on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALBtNFep9nc&t=1745s

I finally got around to listening to some of that, and the argument is a little interesting. What's amusing is that the Wizards Judges are apparently all dorks who don't follow sports, or they'd have to be aware of the employment status of most NFL cheerleaders, and the amount of control that is exerted over them.