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The eye of terror increased threefold in size iirc. I'd count that as a win.

 Roknar wrote:
The eye of terror increased threefold in size iirc. I'd count that as a win.

it's yet again a chaos player arguing that because the battle didn't IMMEDIATLY go PERFECTLY the way Chaos might have wanted it in the most ideal result, it was a loss.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
The eye of terror increased threefold in size iirc. I'd count that as a win.

it's yet again a chaos player arguing that because the battle didn't IMMEDIATLY go PERFECTLY the way Chaos might have wanted it in the most ideal result, it was a loss.

When have you ever seen Chaos flat out win a campaign? That's where the butthurt is coming from. Even if Cadia was destroyed/became a daemon world, Guilliman returned and the Ynnari are now an incredibly powerful force (on theTT, but still), so those overshadow any Chaos victory.

When has the Imperium actually lost a campaign? Never. Or, if they do "lose", there's some great silver lining (like Guilliman coming back).

 Flanker wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
The eye of terror increased threefold in size iirc. I'd count that as a win.

it's yet again a chaos player arguing that because the battle didn't IMMEDIATLY go PERFECTLY the way Chaos might have wanted it in the most ideal result, it was a loss.

When have you ever seen Chaos flat out win a campaign? That's where the butthurt is coming from. Even if Cadia was destroyed/became a daemon world, Guilliman returned and the Ynnari are now an incredibly powerful force (on theTT, but still), so those overshadow any Chaos victory.

When has the Imperium actually lost a campaign? Never. Or, if they do "lose", there's some great silver lining (like Guilliman coming back).

yeah because chaos is TOTALLY hard done by in the primarchs department. :eyeroll: Magnus is already back, Mortarian is looking to be VERY soon. and according to the rumors we can expect the other "big 4" to show within the year or so. Chaos is having it pretty good these days, better then they've had in ages. Don't demand total victory, you won't get it. anymore then the IoM will (whom let's face it, fends off a chaos attack, but abbaddon gets what he really wants and retreats into the eye of terror, to rest and recharge quickly due to weird warp time flow gak) keep ion mind EVERY battle chaos fights is an offensive action, for the most part.

I'll invite you to take a look at this new, official map of the galaxy and revise your opinion:



Some joke.

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll invite you to take a look at this new, official map of the galaxy and revise your opinion:

Spoiler:

Some joke.

Who spilled ink over it? Are those splotches Chaos?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll invite you to take a look at this new, official map of the galaxy and revise your opinion:

Spoiler:

Some joke.

Who spilled ink over it? Are those splotches Chaos?

No, that's an oily/bloody sneeze from a freshly converted servitor not quite adapted to their new dusty surroundings. Scribe had the servitor changed into a coffee machine, and a new map without the errors has been started by the scribe again.

Somehow i find the prospect of a galaxy wide rip into chaos the equivilant of someone tearing up a new donkey-cave.

Chaos teared up the galaxy good!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The big difference between Sauron and Chaos in 40k is pretty damn huge.
The second difference is that Sauron was only defeated once (not including his final defeat of course, or before he became the Big Bad), and only through the utmost effort of the good guys. Their victory was in fact a Pyrrhic victory, since they failed to defeat Sauron completely and were so weakened they would never recover, leaving them unable to defeat Sauron the second time. Even in defeat, Sauron's amazing power and extremely high threat level is obvious. This is how the Imperium's victories against Chaos should have worked, too. Instead however Abbadon has been defeated more times than you can count on two hands, always coming back with yet another silly plot and angrily shouting "I'll get you next time!" when said plot inevitably gets foiled. In short, Abbadon behaves like the villain in a kid's cartoon show, having a new plot every episode, getting defeated and being back next episode with yet another plot without the status quo of the cartoon setting ever changing.

Actually Sauron was defeated multiple times from what I recall.

He was overpowerd by Luthien and Huan and fled
He was part of the great defeat of Morgoth and had to flee into the depths of the earth iirc to avoid the wrath of the Valar
The Numenorians invaded with a vast force and he quickly surrendered as he could not fight them - he then later managed to corrupt them but he was militarily defeated. His attempt to get them to invade the West succeeds but results in everyone dying and his "fair" form being destroyed.
He was defeated by the last Alliance and his physical form destroyed again.
He arose as the Necromancer and was defeated by the White Council.

However I would agree that Chaos is often used as whipping boy, but then the Space Wolves have become increasingly silly - with plot shields 10 miles thick.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll invite you to take a look at this new, official map of the galaxy and revise your opinion:

Spoiler:

Some joke.

Who spilled ink over it? Are those splotches Chaos?

yup, warp storms and the like. with cadia gone the eye of terror is now spreading.

But Abbadon is still a bitch yes XD

BrianDavion wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll invite you to take a look at this new, official map of the galaxy and revise your opinion:

Spoiler:

Some joke.

Who spilled ink over it? Are those splotches Chaos?

yup, warp storms and the like. with cadia gone the eye of terror is now spreading.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

Things are looking bad for the Imperium. Maybe not every warp storm is ground claimed for Abaddon's armies, but it's space that the IOM can't utilize.

Chaos doesn't look bad because it achieves nothng, it looks bad because GW isn't good at writing. So meta wise Chaos has gained major ground however Rise of the primarch reads a bit more:Guilliman punches stuff dies, villains stroke their moustache.

^^^This.

Earth127 wrote:
Chaos doesn't look bad because it achieves nothng, it looks bad because GW isn't good at writing. So meta wise Chaos has gained major ground however Rise of the primarch reads a bit more:Guilliman punches stuff dies, villains stroke their moustache.

... did you read the same book I did? Gulliman suffered defeats and it took him months to clear Macragge.

papa nurgle trolled the crap out of guiliman with his sickness

BrianDavion wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Chaos doesn't look bad because it achieves nothng, it looks bad because GW isn't good at writing. So meta wise Chaos has gained major ground however Rise of the primarch reads a bit more:Guilliman punches stuff dies, villains stroke their moustache.

... did you read the same book I did? Gulliman suffered defeats and it took him months to clear Macragge.

Yes, Guilliman does suffer defeats. However the book doesn't dwell on them too much and in the end focuses more on what went well for the Imperium rather than what was lost.

Silly Abaddon! The Crimson Path was meant to go to the heart of the Imperium of Man, not the Tau Empire!

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Chaos doesn't look bad because it achieves nothng, it looks bad because GW isn't good at writing. So meta wise Chaos has gained major ground however Rise of the primarch reads a bit more:Guilliman punches stuff dies, villains stroke their moustache.

... did you read the same book I did? Gulliman suffered defeats and it took him months to clear Macragge.

Yes, Guilliman does suffer defeats. However the book doesn't dwell on them too much and in the end focuses more on what went well for the Imperium rather than what was lost.

sure, just as I'd expect a book focused on abbaddon to focus on his wins rather then dwell endlessly on every little defeat. still Gulliman lost the ultramarines flagship, and likely a considerably amount of the best ships in the ultramarines fleet. and was forced to flee into the webway. sure Magnus lost at Luna but let's be honest here, it was on the doorstep of the most heavily defended world in the IoM, it was to be expected.

So when do we get to hear about Chaos' wins in the main books?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So when do we get to hear about Chaos' wins in the main books?

what the hell is a "main book"?

Something that directly advances the plot and isn't just background stories. Like Gathering Storm.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Something that directly advances the plot and isn't just background stories. Like Gathering Storm.

you mean maybe a book detailing ohhh, I dunno THE FALL OF CADIA?

And how much time is spent on it, and how many resources, and how many centuries has Chaos been trying to accomplish it?

There's two main issues:

1) A lot more time is spent on good guys being heroic than on Chaos being successful.

2) The actual rules are basically all "Space Marines get awesome stuff".

I won't disagree on the rules front chaos has been a bit behind, however we've been seeing some positive trends (renegade knights are actually better then their loyalist counterparts, traitor legions, the 1k sons, the upcoming death guard) and given GW has said they wanna turn the focus on the IoM vs chaos conflict I think we can perpare to see more for chaos. the IOM'll get stuff too but honestly, the IoM is pretty "complete" right now. however it's pretty likely death guard will be followed by a world eaters and emperor's children release.

as for the focus, well 40k has ALWAYS been viewed through an IoM centric lens, that doesn't discount what actually HAPPENED. if you wanna read some fiction that describes chaos wacking a buncha hapless guardsmen without any heroic actions well... I'm sure there is some fan fiction out there. but it'd be kinda dull honestly.

I call heresy on this.

BrianDavion wrote:
given GW has said they wanna turn the focus on the IoM vs chaos conflict I think we can perpare to see more for chaos

Remember when 7th edition came out 3 years ago and GW said they wanted to turn the focus of the setting to IoM vs Chaos? I do. And then I remember 3 years of the IoM getting tuns of stuff and Chaos getting tired, poorly thought out close combat units that didnt work.

BrianDavion wrote:

the IOM'll get stuff too but honestly, the IoM is pretty "complete" right now.

They were complete, then they got the Triumverate of the Imperium and the Triumverate of the Primarch. Chaos got how many new miniatures to play the campaign?
The IoM will continue to get more stuff because that is GW's player base. They can't seem to write Chaos well, or give them good rules, and so they can't sell a diverse line of minitures for them.

I'd agree that Chaos still looks far from competent or powerful compared to the Imperium (particularly with GS3 seemingly implying that even after suffering their greatest defeat in centuries the Imperium instantly became MORE powerful the moment Guilliman took over instead of decreasing in power).

However, on the other hand, without a doubt the new fluff has painted Chaos in a better light than has been seen in ages. Abaddon does at least win in Cadia (even if the book tries to rob as much value from it as it can) and the Diamor Campaign does end up transforming into a Chaos success with the confirmed retreat of the Blood Angels and release of the Daemons from their cage.

It obviously can't be compared in sheer numbers to the amount of Imperium wins, but it is still an improvement over Chaos' showing in primary fluff in preceding years.

Overall I'd say its a mixed bag. Though Chaos had been a sort of joke for some time now, I'd say recent fluff is the first genuinely effective steps at fixing this, even if its far from actually changed the overall status.

On the other hand at least Chaos and Imperium are being hyped as all-important. At this stage Xenos literally feel like some after-thought shoved in with little to no purpose (unless they are in some way advancing a human plot line), which kills my enthusiasm.

 Exergy wrote:


They were complete, then they got the Triumverate of the Imperium and the Triumverate of the Primarch. Chaos got how many new miniatures to play the campaign?
The IoM will continue to get more stuff because that is GW's player base. They can't seem to write Chaos well, or give them good rules, and so they can't sell a diverse line of minitures for them.

chaos got magnus the red, Tzanagor's,revised rubric marines and scarab occult terminators. like a month before.

If Chaos don't feel like a threat at this very time, then unfortunately it is your own twisted perception.

A massive part of the galaxy just got swallowed by the warp.

Plus Chaos play the long game, everyone that dies adds another soul to the chaos gods, every emotion adds to their power.

Things are very dire for the imperium, especially from the hands of Chaos. I suggest that you attempt to re-align your perception of the current state of affairs, and actually look at what Abaddon is.

Is he a threat? Yes
Does he keep the chaos forces a lot more united than they could be? Hell yes
Did he successfully break the warp in to real space? Yes, over 13 black crusades.

The writers somewhat were writing themselves in to a hole, but have a look at the current big picture.