Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I feel like people who say there are no tactics in 7th are intentionally ignoring the tactical elements.

So, I know most wargear options don't affect a unit's power level, but I wonder if that will be the case with heavy armor.

Since it affects the whole unit, I imagine it will make them a point or two above their normal listing.

Unless they simply make 'ard Boyz a separate troops option (giving them three one horde tough unit, one medium infantry unit and the grots who are simply cannon fodder)

 JNAProductions wrote:
I feel like people who say there are no tactics in 7th are intentionally ignoring the tactical elements.

On the same page here.

Going back to the 4th edition Mob Rule, now with no cap and being able to also LD buff nearby ork units is probably my favorite change so far. Boyz being the anchor for other units is a very unique take on it, and it's nice to see a reason to take normal troops that isn't "special weapon vehicles".

Choppas being just +1 attack is slightly dull by not unsurprising, and could have been a worse. What I want to know is that, currently, shoota boyz don't trade in their choppas when they get the shoot so they might actually have the same amount of attacks as they do currently on the charge. Perhaps slugga boyz will get something special other than being able to shoot their sluggas in combat (assuming sluggas themselves don't get an upgrade. Pistol 2, anyone?).

I'm not too upset about the painboy's fnp dropping from 5+ to 6+. While the painboy being moved to HQ made sense, I felt like it basically made him mandatory to take, and in multiples. Now you can take one to slightly buff several units. the more annoyng changes is you're going to be making a LOT of rolls for 6s, so I personally am going to stick my pain boy next to my elite units only and focus on keeping my boyz alive in other ways.

The Waagh! is an all the time buff! I'll miss the set up to the Waagh!, but stratagem will probably replace that. Heck, there'll probably be a way to increase his range.

Also, is says " the ‘Ere We Go special rule that allows Orks to re-roll failed charge rolls". So does that mean it rolls both dice instead of just one?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
He's saying they're boring, simple enough.

More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.

I understand that he was saying they were boring, it was more the reasoning why that was confusing me. I followed that he thought that Ork armies don't make many decisions, but I'm not sure how they make less than other assault armies or gunline armies. I could definitely be missing something though.

The Mek Guns/Grabbin Klaw and KFF comments are what I found the most confusing.

If something, i've been making way more decisions with footslogging orks rather than with...basically any other army. Just too many weaknesses to address. That's actually one of the reasons i moved from footslogging to trukks. I felt exhausted after fielding hordes. All the micro-management with movement took 80% of the game turn. Bauble wraps bauble wrapping bauble wraps that are trying to persuade the enemy they're not bauble wraps and in fact dangerous. But all they really do is move around, score and die. And if you decide to just go "WAAAGH! I'm a mean green ork and i'll rush forward and smash 'eads" - you just loose without any chances.

7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.

Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.

Another thing to put well...

Am I the only one wondering whether we will see rules for looted vehicles? The are no models currently in production for them (not officially, anyways, such as a Rhino kit with an Ork vehicle sprue or gubbinz bitz stuck in the box as well, for example), and though there is a PDF freely available for them, the official Codex didn't have the looted vehicle in there as well.

Or did I miss mention of this in the faction focus somewhere?

remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.

Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!

 Lance845 wrote:
7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.

Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.

Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.

 Nithaniel wrote:
remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.

Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!

It will actually say "over nine inches" so you would need to roll a nine. But with rerolls I am pretty confident it will work out.

 Nithaniel wrote:
remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.

Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!

Flamer's range is 8'. And you ds within 9. Don't think it's a coincidence.

 Blackie wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.

Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.

Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.

I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.

Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.

Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.

I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.

I know a lot of people who CHOSE to play without using the most broken aspects of 7th edition while still playing as competitive as they could with said lists.

7th was incredibly deep and had a ton of tactical choices. Arguing to the contrary just seems in my eyes.

That's not even tactics at best its target priority, 6&7th were dull shooting editions which is why I stopped playing 40k and moved to other games.

I truly hope its not more of the same but I'm currently sceptical.

Well, I'm a Trukk Boy spammer, but LD 12 is still alot better than Ld7 (which is definitely getting lowered, since Marines are now 7). I also tend to take min sized lootaz, but that can change now. I don't exactly like playing Foot mobz , but I'll take any advantage I can!

My friend is salivating at the possibilities of teleporting Meganobz armed with kombi weapons.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.

Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.

Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.

I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.

I don't know a single win-at-any-cost player. 40k is a game and if you are among friends having fun is the only thing that matters. That's why we only play with pre-arranged lists in order to creat a balanced match. Broken stuff and formations are not banned but overall both lists must have concrete chances to win the game. Even a 70-30 or 40-60 is a balanced game imho.

What about:

Dakkajet?
Battlewagon?
Looted wagon?
Flash Gitz?
Kaptain Badrukk?
Ghazghkull Thraka?
Stompa?
Mek Gunz?
Shokk Attack Gun?
Zakgstruk?
Kanz and Deff dread?
Deffkopta?
Stormboyz?
Warbuggies?

 Capt. Camping wrote:
What about:

Dakkajet?
Battlewagon?
Looted wagon?
Flash Gitz?
Kaptain Badrukk?
Ghazghkull Thraka?
Stompa?
Mek Gunz?
Shokk Attack Gun?
Zakgstruk?
Kanz and Deff dread?
Deffkopta?
Stormboyz?
Warbuggies?

hopefully all will be good and we will know in under a month!

I am looking forward to putting my orks on the table again after cleaning off the literal dust of course

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
Another thing to put well...

Am I the only one wondering whether we will see rules for looted vehicles? The are no models currently in production for them (not officially, anyways, such as a Rhino kit with an Ork vehicle sprue or gubbinz bitz stuck in the box as well, for example), and though there is a PDF freely available for them, the official Codex didn't have the looted vehicle in there as well.

Or did I miss mention of this in the faction focus somewhere?

Looted vehicles fly in the face of the "no rules for something without a model" rule, because they've historically been made via conversion or kitbashing a different faction's vehicle. One one hand giving them a model would restrict creativity, on the other giving them none would be confusing for newer players and make it a model without anything to compare conversions against in terms of size and model footprint. Maybe we could get "looted" sprues designed for rhinos, chimeras, wave serpents, and each other "chassis vehicle" from each faction (a universal one would have problems as half of the vehicles in this game are metal boxes and the other half are irregular shaped), complete with a killkannon and the other ork vehicle upgrades along with armor plating and ork gubbins.

with looted vehicles I would prefer they just be able to use any factions vehicles but at a % discount in points for the lower ballistic skill to 5+ btu that would be complicated as suddenly you have say a lascannon predator giving orks access to lascannons though only hitting on 5's also giving them access to gausss etc.

worse case though give em a looted wagon like the white dwarf one and just make it chinos and chimeras as the most common transports for them to get ahold of likely and let people kitbash their own using those same rules but with devil fish or wave serpants.

Didn't they do away with the Looted Wagon in 7th and then faced a pretty strong backlash so they brought it back?

Something that would be cool, but probably too hard to balance, would be to basically to give the orks a "build a wagon" system kind of like the old Vehicle Design Rules. They could have a system for putting together anything from a light buggy to a giant Kill Tank, with sizing guidelines and rules for whether it counts as Fast Attack, Heavy Support or Lord of War. That said, it seems like it would be too hard to balance and open the door to a lot of exploitation by WAAC players.

One potential benefit to eliminating vehicle armor facings might be that we can convert looted vehicles without worrying so much about if people think we're modeling for advantage. Doing fun conversions and looting things is one of the best things about playing orks.

Best way to do it would be to give "small" and "large" chassis, give a general description of how big it should be, and weapon eqvuiallent options.

Like if I remember a Killkannon is basically a battle cannon Orkified, while a ZappGun is a lascannon.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Didn't they do away with the Looted Wagon in 7th and then faced a pretty strong backlash so they brought it back?

Yup, they brought it back as a free PDF and in White Dwarf. It still was lackluster for being an Ork vehicle, but they tried to make things better after leaving it out of the Ork Codex.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Something that would be cool, but probably too hard to balance, would be to basically to give the orks a "build a wagon" system kind of like the old Vehicle Design Rules. They could have a system for putting together anything from a light buggy to a giant Kill Tank, with sizing guidelines and rules for whether it counts as Fast Attack, Heavy Support or Lord of War. That said, it seems like it would be too hard to balance and open the door to a lot of exploitation by WAAC players.

This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
One potential benefit to eliminating vehicle armor facings might be that we can convert looted vehicles without worrying so much about if people think we're modeling for advantage. Doing fun conversions and looting things is one of the best things about playing orks.

Waaagh! My brother converted an Empire Steam Tank into a Looted Wagon, and it is awesome!

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.

Putting it the Narrative Play section is a really good idea. It gives us a lot of room for creativity while still giving us some guidelines and some legitimacy. It also solves the problem of the rules being abused in tournaments. I like it!

I never thought about looting a Steam Tank, but that is good idea. It seems like it would work well. I'm thinking about maybe looting a Kharadron Overlords airship and making a zepplin version of an ork superheavy bomber.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.

Putting it the Narrative Play section is a really good idea. It gives us a lot of room for creativity while still giving us some guidelines and some legitimacy. It also solves the problem of the rules being abused in tournaments. I like it!

I never thought about looting a Steam Tank, but that is good idea. It seems like it would work well. I'm thinking about maybe looting a Kharadron Overlords airship and making a zepplin version of an ork superheavy bomber.

Ooh! Looted Kharadron Overlords? Yes, please! We want pictures!

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Ooh! Looted Kharadron Overlords? Yes, please! We want pictures!

If I do it I'll make sure to post pictures. I'm waiting to see what's in the Forge World book for the orks. I'd like to model it so that it makes sense with the superheavy bommer rules. I also need to see if I can dimensions on the bommers so that it is in the same ballpark in terms of size.

I'm also excited to see the FW book as I picked up a Deffrolla Battle Fortress not that long ago, and I'm really hoping we get Kustom Stompa rules.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
He's saying they're boring, simple enough.

More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.

I understand that he was saying they were boring, it was more the reasoning why that was confusing me. I followed that he thought that Ork armies don't make many decisions, but I'm not sure how they make less than other assault armies or gunline armies. I could definitely be missing something though.

The Mek Guns/Grabbin Klaw and KFF comments are what I found the most confusing.

Hey, so I realized I posted but forgot to put the rest of the comments in! One of the major issues Orks have (and of course, YMMV), other than a bad Foc, bad transports (bad because they trick you into thinking small units of Orks matter), and a laundry list of missing tools that can make them truly all-comers, is that most their units do only one thing.

Not to say a unit should be able to delete any and every threat in the game, but Orks are way more specialized in their units than the Eldar (who lost all privilege of being called the "specialist army" ever since 6e Wave Serpents) and many of their units are effectively "an entire unit of Ork Boyz, with a weapon." This isn't 30k, where you get Tactical Squads with no specials, and Legion Supports with all the flamers! (Ha!). Personally, I like how several Chaos Space Marines units work (at least the functional stuff, rather than the "hurr, I only fight things in melee" units like Berzerkers/Possessed), as several of their units can be considered "exotic generalists."

While some armies have reliable generalists or ones with a viable general-purpose gimmick, other armies have options that allow for certain "tech-play" as well, from something as simple as Guard Orders or the craziness of Canticles, or "pick a buff" effects, or even special tricks that let you move enemy units around (sadly far less common from 6th onward; RIP Magna-Grapples and Mawloc shoving, but hello Death is Not Enough, or assorted formations).

By contrast, I've found that the most notable decision Orks get to make is not even "when to pop a Waaagh" because unlike 4th Ed where you got a Waaagh no matter what, you need a Warboss for this. Thus, the answer tends to either be "never" (because you took Zhadsnark) or "always" (because you took a Green Tide). You aren't fiddling with reserves (unless you do solo Deffkoptas/MSU bikes), planning an Alphastrike, or otherwise doing a whole lot that actually requires much involvement for your own army (other than considerations like "if I charge these White Scars, which way will they H&R to?").

Orks could stand to use more choice in-game, and less specialization as a whole. Remember when Burnas granted armorbane in melee (hell, remember when a Big Mek could *take* a Burna), Turbo Boostas were equipment for both vehicles and Mega Armor, or even the crazier bits of 2nd edition when their artillery did lots of wacky yet abuseable stuff? Not to mention they also had the goofiest Psychic Power, Kop Dis, which let them push "remain in play " templates around. Orks should be dangerous because they have the tools to use in unorthodox ways that take their opponents off guard, with a good dash of humor (at both the Ork and opponent's expense). One example would be allowing a Mek to "fiddle with the worky bits" of his Kustom Forcefield (isn't it ironic that it's called Kustom yet they always work the same) for varied effects (I mentioned the Krielstone Bearer from Hordes because Trollbloods are in many ways the "Orks" of that setting, and the Krielstone is functionally very similar to the KFF, serving as a protective aura for what usually is a tide of warriors. However, you also had the option to buy an Elder to man it, giving a "chaser" effect: Nearby enemy units losing Stealth, dispelling debuffs on nearby units, or a temp boost to strength). Another would be letting an Ork vehicle with a Grabbin Klaw reposition a smaller Vehicle within 2" of it anywhere else within 2" ("Kharchev Powerslide"), giving actual weapon options to Flash Gits, making Kill-Dakka "choose a profile at the start of each turn" akin to an Ork Obliterator, or (at least I would have recommended this one if 8th didn't eliminate aoes) allowing Tankbustas to forfeit their movement and shooting to make a barrage attack with an AOE dependent on how many Orks are in the unit (4-7=small, 8-11=large, 12+=massive). Be it Consolidating the profiles for Ork Bommas (there's no need for a Burna Bomma vs a Blitz Bomma) and Gorkanauts/Morkanauts so they're actually customizable with a mix of wargear both practical and impractical, making an official "medium tank" for Orks so there's no need for Forgeworld for this (plus the banality of the Gunwagon vs Big Trakk choice), and replacing the Rhino-profile "Looted Wagon" with a general list of "Looted Bitz" that you can retrofit vehicles with, giving power at the cost of reliability. Hell, let Orks loot wrecked vehicles in-game if you want to go further.

There's a lot of things that could be done. Emphasizing the Mob Rule and tides of Boyz really doesn't acknowledge the fact that Orks are still fundamentally an army stuck in the design limbo that was the Gav/Jervis era of 4th ed.

Ah, okay. I understand what you're saying now.