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 axisofentropy wrote:
It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.

I had a game where all the knights died to bolt pistols and a 5 man berzerker charge, so thats anecdotal evidence.

 axisofentropy wrote:
As for the shooty terminators, you're paying for those power fists so if they're not using them they're a big waste. If you really believe threat bubble is critical, then you want assault marines or the new inceptors or ravenwing, not shooty terminators. tactical terminators illustrate why it's better to have specialized units and not try to do two things at once.

Shooty terms can come down and thin out a lot of the enemy now with the amount of shots they put out, then walk forward and charge. I have no qualms about putting shooty terms into CC and with their shooting, they can do damage before the charge, and on over watch as well. I'm actually debating cutting out the knights all together in my list as they did nothing in my win other than die to a zerker charge.





I agree with Russel's teapot. I think shooty terms with their increased survivability, are going to give you the flexibility needed in this edition and with the auras/buffs you can put on them, like re-rolls. they are even better as shooty variants because they get double the bonus from them.

Instead of a backfield full of Dreadnoughts and Azrael, why not use Venerable Dreadnoughts? You'll hit 83% of the time instead of 89%, but you gain 6+ FNP and don't have a 180pt combat model chilling in your backfield. Seems like a worthy trade, assuming you're going to pin your opponent in his DZ, for the most part.

Boba, it's like the old days...

Hi Milkman - if you're running pure DeathWing you'll need Ven Dreads! But I still think that Azzy is needed with them to:
1) reroll stuff, because more special rules is still a thing; and
2) to actually have enough slots to take them (as there's loads of Elite choices there, and the other DeathWing HQ slots are pretty poor in comparison to Azzy)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just remembered the DeathWing mantra.

CONCENTRATE your fire
ASSAULT on your terms
BELIEVE in your armour

bobafett012 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.

I had a game where all the knights died to bolt pistols and a 5 man berzerker charge, so thats anecdotal evidence.

You saw I was responding to a post comparing assault terminators to tactical, specifically their resilience to shooting. They have equally bad odds versus berserkers. Of course terminators shouldn't be in the same neighborhood as berzerkers; they're for the shooting half of your army to handle.

I agree in a balanced mixed force that DWK have some merit. In a DeathWing list I remain unconvinced.

Would you put DWK in a LR? Seems like Vehicles main weakness is CC multi wound weapons, DWK could jump out and intercept an inbound assault force/Deep strike squad.

Still haven't gotten my first game in, but I'm aiming at this for a pure Deathwing list.

Belial (SoS+SB)
Asmodai

Deathwing Ancient (TH/SS)

3x Deathwing Squads (+1 Chainfist, +1 AC)

1x Deathwing Knight Squad

LRC (+MM)

2x Rifleman Dreads

The general idea is Belial, buffing both shooting and assault, wants to come in with the main DW drop to buff their initial shooting and wants to be around when they make contact in assault. So Belial, the Ancient, and the three DW squads come in hot open fire, and try to get at least one unit in close combat (spend a CP if necessary). Their initial shooting is actually pretty devastating against most infantry now (instead of being a series of wet slaps) and Belial ensures they are making those shots count.

Meanwhile, Asmodai and the Knights are packed in tot he LRC and making a beeline for the action. Asmodai has great synergy with the Knights and even better synergy if he can get near the ancient. This ensures that even if the DWK's need to divert, they are still getting their re-rolls (since they only care about hand-to-hand) and their bonus attack (very necessary if facing down larger tarpits).

And the rifleman dreads basically just focus down harder targets since 16 autocannon shots can threaten a great deal of potential targets while still allowing them to buzzsaw infantry if the enemy hasn't taken any beefier units like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

The only main concern here is that most of my anti-vehicle is tied up in close combat on relatively slow units. Though the LRC's single MM is handy, it wont be doing much on its own and while the dreads are flexible, they lack the high-end oomph of twin lascannons.

Deathwing still look to be pretty niche and finicky in play, but I think they're probably in a better place than they've been in eons (yeah, not a high bar). I'll be interested to see how they do on the field. My group's meta usually isn't terribly vehicle heavy outside of our Tau player so this list should do well in that environment, and with vehicles getting a hefty price bump it may even be a larger trend in general (we'll see).

Incidentally, if you aren't super concerned about going pure DW, Razorbacks seem like a good potential anti-tank investment now. Twin lascannon and an H-K is all of 121 points on a beefy frame. Though in this list, the large number of elite slots being used was part of the point since it allowed for two detachments. So beware using DT's as filler units if you are trying to go for maximizing your possible CP's.

Yeah I just took a second look at asmodai too. He lacks mobility, but provides both buffs of Belial and a Deathwing Ancient, and provides them to all Dark Angels. The +1 Attack even stacks with the Ancient! I think He should be in most Land Raiders with Deathwing knights or, I'm thinking, company veterans.

I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.

An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.

I like the T-AC's volume of shots, but the missile launcher is growing on me at +2 to hit (potentially with reroll support). The cannon can push more wounds but will struggle more against t8 tanks. That's a decision for when you're down to you last few points maybe.

It is also concerning to leave them unprotected for melee... However since it was brought to my attention that the model cost in the back doesn't include any of their gear, dropping 40 points on a DCCW sounds rough.

Maybe a trio of Twinlas/missile, rifleman, and soldier(Twinauto/DCCW)?

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.

An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.

Isn't that another reason to have a character like Azrael in the backline? Not only does he make the Dreads harder to bring down with ranged attacks he also provides melee support.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.

An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.

I definitely think Azrael is worth it for the extra protection and rerolls he brings, plus the extra command point. In fact, if I had a lot of units near Azrael to benefit from his abilities, I'd stick a Primaris Lieutenant with them as well so that they could reroll 1's to wound. It's more points, but the more you have taking advantage of it, the better the value. By time you take that much stuff in one place, you are asking to get things dropped in your face, so bubble wrap accordingly, although staying in-faction limits our cheap bubble wrap units (Scouts maybe?).

Speaking of Primaris units, how does everyone feel about our Primaris stuff? Personally I think the Lieutenants are the best thing with their rerolls of 1's to wound. Not sure if the Ancient is worth it compared to a standard Ancient, although if he is hanging out in the backfield it could be worth him having the bolt rifle. The captain seems hard to use with no eligible transports. Rerolling 1's to hit is a decent ability, kind of a discount Azrael, but his CC-oriented loadout might be hard to utilize effectively with no delivery system. Intercessors seem like a solid gunline unit, possibly better than Tacticals if you are staying back. The lack of special weapon options means that they should just stay back and use the long range of their guns to best effect. Hellblasters are crazy expensive for what they do, although if they get within 15" and overcharge their guns somebody is going to have a bad time (their owner if they roll a lot of 1's, meaning this could be a good use of the Primaris captain...). Inceptors seem good, but again a little overcosted. 18 Heavy Bolter shots are nothing to sneeze at, plus they can "deep strike". How do the rest of you feel about the new shinies?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.

An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.

I definitely think Azrael is worth it for the extra protection and rerolls he brings, plus the extra command point. In fact, if I had a lot of units near Azrael to benefit from his abilities, I'd stick a Primaris Lieutenant with them as well so that they could reroll 1's to wound. It's more points, but the more you have taking advantage of it, the better the value. By time you take that much stuff in one place, you are asking to get things dropped in your face, so bubble wrap accordingly, although staying in-faction limits our cheap bubble wrap units (Scouts maybe?).

Speaking of Primaris units, how does everyone feel about our Primaris stuff? Personally I think the Lieutenants are the best thing with their rerolls of 1's to wound. Not sure if the Ancient is worth it compared to a standard Ancient, although if he is hanging out in the backfield it could be worth him having the bolt rifle. The captain seems hard to use with no eligible transports. Rerolling 1's to hit is a decent ability, kind of a discount Azrael, but his CC-oriented loadout might be hard to utilize effectively with no delivery system. Intercessors seem like a solid gunline unit, possibly better than Tacticals if you are staying back. The lack of special weapon options means that they should just stay back and use the long range of their guns to best effect. Hellblasters are crazy expensive for what they do, although if they get within 15" and overcharge their guns somebody is going to have a bad time (their owner if they roll a lot of 1's, meaning this could be a good use of the Primaris captain...). Inceptors seem good, but again a little overcosted. 18 Heavy Bolter shots are nothing to sneeze at, plus they can "deep strike". How do the rest of you feel about the new shinies?

Not really sure how 'Tarantula Sentry Guns' work however they seem cheep and shooty, they might be ok at blocking deep strike units at least for a turn or 2?

I actually just got my forgeworld books in the mail, and tarantulas stood out as potential big winners. That's a lot of really inexpensive firepower. 45pts for the assault cannon variant, in particular, seems like a steal.

Inceptors seem cool I dunno. Kind of expensive. More shots than HB devs but not more shots than two units of them. Pods are expensive but now that you can load two half units into one you may not need as many. So I dunno. Kinda like having SM crisis suits, kinda. Seem a touch fragile for the cost, and 18 HB shots will have trouble "making back their points", but pinpoint tactical deletion can be valuable. Plus drop at 18" away into cover and don't get charged, they may work out.

Intercessors are nice alongside scouts and tacticals as an extra troop choice, solid anti infantry obj campers.

Lieutenants will always have a place buffing a firebase along with captains. Would like to see an inceptor style drop Lt too.

Hellblasters sound fun. Huge bubble of potential death, must needs a captain for reroll 1 support.


Hey I noticed something. Company veterans seem to be able to take both a storm shield and storm bolter (or combi Whatever). That's 7 points of gear on 16 point dudes. 23 points for 4 shots a d a 3++. Good? You tell me, all I'm sure of at this point is they're *interesting*. Send 9 down in a pod with a captain with similar gear and hose things down. I dunno though, I like the concept so I may have blinders on to the actual efficacy.


If I'm looking at 2k and I have
Belial
DW ancient
DWT modeled like DV x 3
DW Knights
Land raider
Ven dread with twinlas and missile

What do I take for the last 220 points or so? Can't decide what the list needs.

Maybe another character and an apothecary to heal up and bring back terminators.

Character wise I'd maybe go with Ezekiel. You don't have much in the backfield for Azreal to protect and Ezekiel could even run up with the knights inn the LR so he can aversion anything dangerous for his unit or the rest of the army. He's decent in CC and since it's 24" range you'll be able to hit his big stuff like devs, or knights etc

Hmm I could probably scrape up one more terminator, and he's pretty cheap with just a SB.

So Zeke will be ok just hoofing it along behind the the land raider? I guess advancing and using psychic powers don't interact so he could be running along trying to nuke dudes and debuffing.

That aura would add a third layer of buffs onto the whole blob of combat too.

Intriguing.

combos I think are efficient:

Belial, Ancient, Deathwing Knights

Azreal, shooty dreadnoughts

Asmodai, Company Veterans in Drop Pod or Land Raider (i really want to try this one, might be a gem)

Belial
DW ancient
DWT modeled like DV x 3
DW Knights
Land raider
Ven dread with twinlas and missile

This is basically what I had in mind but with a Spartan instead of the Dread and LR. I'd probably throw Ezekiel in there with the DWK to add some punch and perhaps make target priority a bit more challenging for your opponent. Does he shoot the termies in his face or the gunboat with a badass unit in it downfield?

Belial teleports in alongside the Terminators for some dakka fun and possibly a first-turn charge courtesy of CP rerolls. Meanwhile, the Knights, Ancient, Apothecary(?) and Zeke chug across the field in their Spartan, lascannons blasting merrily away. I'll have to figure the points, but fitting that into 2000 shouldn't be all that hard.

Hmm cool. Sounds similar then. I have a LR but no Spartan so if have to have Zeke running. Possibly some terminators depending on of its 50% models or 50% points for reserves.

Just did the math, Zeke and The apothecary took me to 2003 but I could switch the ancient to Twin claws to save 9 and spend the spare 6 on a HKM for the raider. Seeing as it only adds 2 models to paint and the DV librarian looks just like Zeke, I may go this route.


Axisofentropy what wargear for the Veterans?

 GrimDork wrote:


Axisofentropy what wargear for the Veterans?

thunder hammer for Sergeant, maybe power weapon or two, Chainswords all around.

Max out on Storm shields or something else? Sounds cool you should tell us how it plays out!

Melee-oriented Veterans? With the reduction in cost for Storm Shields (at least on non-characters) and power weapons, this may be a viable option now. I'll have to give it some thought.

Yeah they might be fun for Dark Angels, although I don't think they can be better than things like Death Company and Wulfen.

Question on Azrael, if he is inside a land raider/storm raven does it get the 4+ Save? If yes do units around it also get the save?

MilkmanAl wrote:
I haven't played with them yet, but I agree that Knights seem awfully tempting. They pack a ton of punch and have those invaluable storm shields to keep rolling through high AP fire and tough melee opponents. On the other hand, dropping in a bunch of storm bolters with Belial rerolls seems pretty devastating. I'm not sure there's enough room for both, though. Decisions, decisions.

At 2k, in addition to Belial and an Int. Chap. in Term. Arm., you can fit two shooty squads with a CML/CF each and a squad of DWK and TH/SS terminators with a LRC for each assaulty squad.

Gibs55 wrote:
Question on Azrael, if he is inside a land raider/storm raven does it get the 4+ Save? If yes do units around it also get the save?

no... as per the transport rules regarding embarked units.

 zedsdead wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Question on Azrael, if he is inside a land raider/storm raven does it get the 4+ Save? If yes do units around it also get the save?

no... as per the transport rules regarding embarked units.

Thanks, new player only got the rule book a week ago sorry for the silly question.

How does everyone feel about kind of a "mechanized infantry" type build for DA? I'm talking about several Tactical, Assault, or Devastator Squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks, with characters to give them buffs and some Ravenwing bikes to add additional mobile punch. It would be kind of like the Battle Company lists of 7th, except without the free transport cheese (the transports are there, but they are paid for now). Mainly I want to get some mileage out of some of the squads and transports I assembled for my 7th edition Battle Company list but then never got to use. A couple of Assault Squads on foot with 2 flamers in each, some plasma/combiplasma and melta/combimelta tactical squads, and perhaps one of my favorites, devs with 4 gravcannons. I have built a list in Battlescribe using this concept together with a nice batch of heavy firepower clustered around Azrael. I can post it here if people think this concept is workable.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How does everyone feel about kind of a "mechanized infantry" type build for DA? I'm talking about several Tactical, Assault, or Devastator Squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks, with characters to give them buffs and some Ravenwing bikes to add additional mobile punch. It would be kind of like the Battle Company lists of 7th, except without the free transport cheese (the transports are there, but they are paid for now). Mainly I want to get some mileage out of some of the squads and transports I assembled for my 7th edition Battle Company list but then never got to use. A couple of Assault Squads on foot with 2 flamers in each, some plasma/combiplasma and melta/combimelta tactical squads, and perhaps one of my favorites, devs with 4 gravcannons. I have built a list in Battlescribe using this concept together with a nice batch of heavy firepower clustered around Azrael. I can post it here if people think this concept is workable.

I am in this exact same boat, with over 50 painted Tac/Assault squads and ten Razorbacks with ACs. I would like to run a pod, grav devs, two razors, 3 tac squads with either flamers or plasma, and then add either Ravenwing or Deathwing elements.

How do people like Sammael? Is he and a few large Black Knight squads viable for helping Green Wing?