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 wtwlf123 wrote:
Based on how the index is written, it sounds like Sternguard Veterans lose their special issue ammo when they switch to combi-weapons now, since they're exchanging their special issue bolter with a combi-bolter, and the "ammo" is no longer a rule ...is this correct?

It is! Which is why I feel like the MSU Sternguard should only run their base load out or take Heavy Flamers and save the combis for larger units or units of Company Vets.

Thanks for the quick response. Still :( though; combi-Sternguard were literally my favorite units in the codex.

Their ride also got way more expensive. Sternguard are a bit of a loser this edition.

I know. Pods are expensive, Rhinos lost their fire points, and combi-Sternguard lost their special ammo. Bad times. :(

Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.

Hmm. I was looking at Sicarus and trying to think of way to use that fancy power of his. (Tac squads w/in 6" always strike first in HtH). One of my main issues with the Marines is the lack of cheap bubble wrap and susceptibility to getting your center board charged by HtH dudes.

What I'm thinking is Tac Squads (3-4) deployed in columns with a frontage of 2-3 models and deployed in close formation with each other. Like This...

XXX XXX XXX XXX
XXX XXX XXX XXX
XXX XXX XXX XXX
X X X X

This would mitigate for a lot of multi-charges from horde units like Orks, even a squad of 10 Berserkers can either mutli-charge or lose combat effectiveness by only getting into BtB with a handful of guys. Multi-Overwatch and first strike in HtH with +1 TH seems pretty fancy for one character's worth of buffs. If you add some CCW upgrades on the sergeants it starts to look doable.

One ML/Plasma Tac squad isn't that killy by itself, although if you add a combi-flamer and PW to the Sgt they'll frag about 4 MEQs or 6-7 Orks between OW and first-striking at +1TH. Multiply that by two or three because the enemy multi-charged and it looks pretty savage. If you go to two flamers the OW is a lot better, but at the loss of the rest of the Plasma shooting you can do in other rounds.

I like the idea of anchoring the sides of a formation like this with vehicles (Twin AC Razorbacks maybe). It an idea I'm going to keep playing with anyway. The Chaplain and/or Lieutenant would also up the effectiveness. Can anyone else think of ways to leverage this?

On a different note, has anyone played around with the combo of Cassius' Inspired Retribution Specail rule and the Astartes banner? Every FIght Phase Casualty get to strike again on a 4+ and then cause a mortal wound on a 6+. I don't know if it's efficeint, but it sounds like a real pain in the rear for the other guy.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.

Except they really weren't an Autoinclude?

I'm more confused as to what their role is. They basically have Rubric Ammo without any of the benefits of being Rubric Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.

Except they really weren't an Autoinclude?

I'm more confused as to what their role is. They basically have Rubric Ammo without any of the benefits of being Rubric Marines.

The only thing special they got going for them vs normal tac marines is that they can basically take a FULL squad of combi weapons. thats pretty much it. that and or mass ap2 bolters which is nothing to scoff at

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Based on how the index is written, it sounds like Sternguard Veterans lose their special issue ammo when they switch to combi-weapons now, since they're exchanging their special issue bolter with a combi-bolter, and the "ammo" is no longer a rule ...is this correct?

Correct. In my case, half of my two Squads take SI Boltguns, the other half take Combi. The Combi Plasma guys might be double firing most of the time.

Legion of the damned look alright, a special and heavy weapon in 5 man squads, 3++ save, ignore cover and deep strike rule.

Scouts stand out as well.

Seeing how power weapons appear to be dirt cheap I think I'll give a lot of my sarges a power sword or something even if they already have a combi weapon or are in a Dev squad.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Legion of the damned look alright, a special and heavy weapon in 5 man squads, 3++ save, ignore cover and deep strike rule.

Scouts stand out as well.

Both of these stood out to me as well; could really make use of the scouts to pick off enemy characters when equipped with snipers.

LOTD are definitely cool. Even their Bolters are faux AP-1, and you load them up with a Melta, Multi, and Combi and hit them in the special area.

So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.

In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's such a shame their SM Index price is so drastically more expensive than in the starter set (Literally over 60 points different), because at 159pts for 3 they would have been amazing.

They'd still proooobly be too much by my math. Like, they kill 72 points worth of boyz or 60 to 72 points worth of genestealers when they pop down.

As a note 10 boyz is 60 points. Can you imagine armies of like 200 boyz with a couple warbosses?

It really does look like cheap assaulty units are king in this game because their statlines are all fething bonkers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.

In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?

The Chapter Ancient has absolutely zero choices for weapons. He has a Power Sword and Grenades. That is it. You are thinking of the Company Ancient, which is infinitely better anyway.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.

Since when? The cutting edge competitive SM lists were the assault squad/devastator formation or bikes bikes bikes bikes, both lists abusing grav to the hilt.

stratigo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.

Since when? The cutting edge competitive SM lists were the assault squad/devastator formation or bikes bikes bikes bikes, both lists abusing grav to the hilt.

I meant out of the Elites, especially between them and the Vanguard Vets. Among certain Imperial Fist builds especially.

I guess among the huge tournament scene it was less so though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.

In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?

The Chapter Ancient has absolutely zero choices for weapons. He has a Power Sword and Grenades. That is it. You are thinking of the Company Ancient, which is infinitely better anyway.

Oh, yes, yes I am. Sorry about the mix up.

Question still remains though.

Well, you don't really want the Ancient in combat do you? I don't think I do. I want him hanging out buffing leadership and letting guys who get gakked take another swing. Maybe a plasma pistol. He can add a wound here or there at shot range or, in extremis, on the charge, and it doesn't cost much. Power weapons are also good, and cheap. I don't think I'm buying him expensive toys though.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Well, you don't really want the Ancient in combat do you? I don't think I do. I want him hanging out buffing leadership and letting guys who get gakked take another swing. Maybe a plasma pistol. He can add a wound here or there at shot range or, in extremis, on the charge, and it doesn't cost much. Power weapons are also good, and cheap. I don't think I'm buying him expensive toys though.

I don't really want him in combat, but expect him to get sucked in since he'll still need to be near the front to be effective. Especailly for Te,plars who seem geared towards being more aggressive than standard Marines with their Crusader Squad options and Special Character buffs.

That said, a cheap Plasma Pistol is likely a good choice, especially if he's getting Helbrecht's re-roll failed to-hit rolls buff.

Actually with that reroll a combi weapon almost sounds more helpful since it means getting to hit more. But in the mindset of keepingnupgrades cheap, maybe just a Storm Bolter for the maximum basic plinking? I mean they're only 2 points.

Plasma pistol and power sword together is only 11 points (or the axe for 12, whatever), cheaper than almost all the combi weapons alone. Cheap and gets you both shooting and HtH buffs. That works for me.

Barring that, yeah, I'd spend the 2pts on a Stormbolter. Why not?

Ancients can only trade their Bolt Pistol for a single option, so running sword and pistol isn't a choice.

So it looks like Storm Bolters win based on being the cheapest upgrade and a straight buff over a bolt pistol.

 ultimentra wrote:
It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.

Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.

Hmmm if the new Redemptor Dread doesn't look so promising I'll have to pick up an Ironclad, or maybe proxy my Contemptor.

 ultimentra wrote:
Hmmm if the new Redemptor Dread doesn't look so promising I'll have to pick up an Ironclad, or maybe proxy my Contemptor.

The ironclad looks like a monster; I'm imaging dropping that baby off right at the enemy's doorstep with a stormraven and all the accompanying dakka.

I am starting to wonder if a 5-man Tactical Squad is better off taking a Combi Flamer and Flamer than the other Special Weapon combinations. I already do this with my Blood Angels, but perhaps it would be a good idea with my Crimson Fists. I already have Sternguard toting 5 Combi Plasma and 5 Combi Melta (and 2x5 more that have SI Boltguns), so maybe a little horde protection would be better than more Plasma. Thoughts?

Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.


Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.

Debating between Chronus and three las preds or aegis line and three las devastator squads.

I can still take Razorbacks with either the preds or the devastators, but...

Median Trace wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.

Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.

So can Assault Centurions if you keep the assault launchers. Put them and an Ironclad in a Storm Raven for maximum effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.


Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.

Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcher seems to be the best long range load out if you're just looking to pop some stuff at range, but if you want to keep the Dreadnough CCW then I would consider either the Lascannon or Plasma Cannon since they have long range and don't push you to get closer to the enemy.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.

Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.

So can Assault Centurions if you keep the assault launchers. Put them and an Ironclad in a Storm Raven for maximum effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.


Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.

Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcher seems to be the best long range load out if you're just looking to pop some stuff at range, but if you want to keep the Dreadnough CCW then I would consider either the Lascannon or Plasma Cannon since they have long range and don't push you to get closer to the enemy.

until it gets blown out of the sky

a friend of mine tried that and got wasted T1

we all had a laugh.