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pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Storm Boyz!

Flyer armies limit the construction of lists. Say I want to try out a mass zerker list, fluffy? yes. But it will just sit there and die against a mass flier list. I can't even charge them...

Every list I construct have to take into account the possibility of an alpha strike with a few storm ravens. Because its either that, or I just immediately concede if I meet that list?

I mean, even if its a 4 knight army, at least my mass zerker army has a chance. Not the best match up, but maybe the sheer number of attacks can carry the day. With fliers, all melee ground troops are invalidated.

And its not like said fliers are that easy to bring down either.

Flyers are easier to deal with than FMC were in 7th.

If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

Or flyers of your own. Or enough volume of fire to overcome the (barely relevant in 8th) BS penalty for shooting them with normal weapons. It's not unreasonable to expect that, in a game with aircraft, you need to bring counters to aircraft if you want to win. You wouldn't expect to beat a tank-heavy list if you stubbornly refused to bring anti-tank weapons, would you?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

As Imperium? No, you have a bunch of easy answers to flyers which are perfectly useful ground units outside of their AA role. I would avoid Hydras. They're only okay against flyers, especially T7 Stormravens, and terrible against everything else.

Space Marines probably want to go to Forgeworld for a BS2+ dreadnought. The Mortis Contemptor can get 4 lascannons for about 200 points. It shoots at flyers like a Predator shoots at non-flyers (incidentally, it expects to do more than twice as much damage than a Hydra to a Stormraven). It'll also benefit from Chapter Tactics when those come out. But, really, standard BS3+ shooting is just fine. Guard of course have their answer to literally everything other than other Guardsmen: plasma command squads. They're cheap enough that you don't really care that you're overheating on 2s. A Stormraven's points' worth of Scions expects to kill it in one volley. And if they don't have to shoot at flyers they're even better. Adeptus Mechanicus Onager Doomcrawlers with Icarus Arrays are really solid all-rounders, and note that Cawl's aura re-rolls all hits rather than just misses and so is especially good when there are negative modifiers at work.

Chaos can use winged Princes and/or lots of Smites to supplement their shooting.

Other factions don't have non-flyer options which are as obvious, it's true. Orks and Tyranids just don't have great answers. They can try to ignore the flyers and play the objectives, but that's about it. Necrons pretty much have to go with the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon, and that's so overpowered that you're probably going to get some dirty looks using it, either because it's a LoW that makes all other Necron anti-tank look terrible or because your opponent has a LoW himself and the Pylon erased it in a single turn. Tau quad-fusion Commanders are very popular and have BS2+. We've ruled out the standard Eldar responses to flyers, which are their own flyers, but Dark Reapers are worth a look since they ignore modifiers, and Razorwing Flocks are as good here as they are against every other big thing -- they wound Stormravens just as easily as they wound tactical Marines. Plain old Guardians are actually surprisingly good against T7 flyers if you Doom them, and shuriken cannnons are also pretty good against Doomed T6 flyers (they're inefficient against T7 tho since they're wounding as if they're catapults). Wraithguard with d-scythes auto-hit, though really Fire Dragons are still going to be better.

 Zande4 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

Sure do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

On topic I've always thought the idea of flyers at this scale to be incredibly stupid, especially the way they loiter on the table. FoW has a much better system that admittedly doesn't sell many flyers.

Here's your AA if you're Orks:



Stormboyz can attack flyers since they have the Fly keyword, and they have a bunch of S4 attacks which wound on 5+ since no flyer afaik has T8.
Then add the Nobs powerklaw on top.

Correct. The Stormraven is atm the toughest flyer with the possible exception of some Tau FW ones, and it's T7 (with 14 wounds and a 3+ save, which is the real reason why it's the toughest).

 MinscS2 wrote:
Here's your AA if you're Orks:


Stormboyz can attack flyers since they have the Fly keyword, and they have a bunch of S4 attacks which wound on 5+ since no flyer afaik has T8.
Then add the Nobs powerklaw on top.

Mathammers to 8.67 wounds with a maxed out (so no casualties) unit of stormboyz. This is discounting the fact that Stormboyz will never catch a 45" move flyer. http://prntscr.com/fxwrp4

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

Uh no. If you're Guard, Pask makes a fine FlaK gun. Hits on a 3+ with a Lascannon, 2 Multimeltas, and a Battle Cannon for some pretty hefty damage. So do Tank Commanders.

Anyone with a 3+ or better BS can pretty much dump AT fire into the think until it dies.

Get yourself a couple vengeance weapon battery and/or a firestorm redoubt. Get to orkifying the crap out of them, and now you have dakka boxes, big boom cannons, and best of all two twin Icarus lascannon arrays.

They also hit on 5+, but negate the flyer's defense bonus. They hit like a ton of bricks, and you get a cozy little box to out your lootas in (they can fire out, but your opponent can't target them until they get through the big pile of wounds with t8-9 and a 3+ save)

Orks with fortifications are brutal because the guns get +1 to hit on most if you have Boyz nearby.

Quadgun with an ork hits flyers on a 4+...

Dakkadakkadakkadakkadakka!

Most games I play are fairly small. Flyers, superheavies and fortifications tend to get left out, unless one of us wants to try model x, in which case there's advance notice.

Partly prejudiced by first trial flyers game. My Eldar opponent had nothing counter flyers (his 6s tend to come up only in leadership or morale tests). Most one sided game I've ever played, and not fun.

So, not banned, but don't turn up often.

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

yep it's really great for unit that can hit with 4+ and bewlo, but for ork they just became harder to kill^^, you still have to hit on 6+ while space marines hit on 4+

Which is more a problem with the really broken Ork list at the moment.

the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

The Flyer Wing detachment should not be a thing. This immediately balances flyers.

And you are not guaranteed first turn in tournament format for having less drops. With chance to seize it comes out to roughly 60-40.

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

For now, we are staying away from flyers. Perhaps a leftover mode from last edition, but they certainly aren't needed in casual games -- at least according to my opponents. Plus I am currently playing Death Guard, and they cannot even have one to get their consistent benefits...

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

Honestly, that's a pretty fair point.

Regarding flyers, I will say that the biggest problem I have with flyers atm is that there's nothing stopping them (that I can tell) from claiming objectives and things like linebreaker while supersonic. That's a little silly imo.

Also, supersonic transports no longer have to go into hover mode to drop off troops, which, again, is a little silly.

What about making Flyers only able to claim objectives in hover mode, where their defenses are lower?

 Melissia wrote:
Correct. The Stormraven is atm the toughest flyer with the possible exception of some Tau FW ones, and it's T7 (with 14 wounds and a 3+ save, which is the real reason why it's the toughest).

You have to be able to kill a rhino and a half. at a -1 hit penalty

in one turn before it flys over and melts your face off.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

How do you deploy out of range of something with 45" movement? You could maybe make it so that the twin multi-melta cannot get half range, or the hurricane bolters cannot rapid fire. But 45" + 48" lascannon is never out of range. heck 45" + 24" multi-melta is never out of range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

Honestly, that's a pretty fair point.

Regarding flyers, I will say that the biggest problem I have with flyers atm is that there's nothing stopping them (that I can tell) from claiming objectives and things like linebreaker while supersonic. That's a little silly imo.

Also, supersonic transports no longer have to go into hover mode to drop off troops, which, again, is a little silly.

The issue is that Orks hit the same against flyers, but flyers got more durable. In 7th 3-4 glances put down pretty much every flyer. Now they have 10+ wounds, and saves. So if they are hitting the same, and doing less damage they are worse off by a lot.

 Desubot wrote:
You have to be able to kill
[...]
in one turn

No. You do not.

7th really spoiled people with the ability to just delete expensive units easily in one turn.

 Melissia wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
You have to be able to kill
[...]
in one turn

No. You do not.

7th really spoiled people with the ability to just delete expensive units easily in one turn.

Well sure you dont have to. you can half wound it for BS4. but 2 lascnnons multi meltas and 2 missile launchers should be capable of wrecking pretty much any tank on the following turn even on a 4+

besides the point of the example was that its effectively a rhino and a half. T7 3+ save 14 wounds.

Breng77 wrote:


How do you deploy out of range of something with 45" movement? You could maybe make it so that the twin multi-melta cannot get half range, or the hurricane bolters cannot rapid fire. But 45" + 48" lascannon is never out of range. heck 45" + 24" multi-melta is never out of range.

1) They're not small models and I have more information about deployment than they do.
2) They can't land on top of models - a sufficiently spread out horde will create a large no-go zone.

I feel like the biggest problem with fliers is that they imagine they can be anywhere without restriction - even on top of one another. It's the conscript problem all over again - no they can't all FRFSRF.

The bases are almost FIVE inches long and three and a half wide. If you're in a corner and you leave room for them to go sideways pointing towards an edge then they'll have to hover next turn or die. Or you can just be 3.4 inches from terrain and other units and they can't get in deep enough.

 Desubot wrote:
Well sure you dont have to. you can half wound it for BS4. but 2 lascnnons multi meltas and 2 missile launchers should be capable of wrecking pretty much any tank on the following turn even on a 4+

Even at 4+-- which most Marine vehicles and infantry will be against it-- you can easily put that much firepower in to it in return.

And it's barely any tougher than a predator, so if you think that a stormraven that's damaged to the point of hitting on 4+ is gonna delete a predator a turn, then why can't you delete a stormraven in a turn?

The stormraven build you mentioned cost 318(!!!) points. 8 devastator lascannons cost 330, with a captain nearby you reroll a third of your misses. So for barely more than the cost of the stormraven (404 pts before captain equipment, and most of the overage is the captain who you should be taking anyway because rerolling 1s is a damn good aura for 3+ shooting armies) you can get on average 3 lascannon wounds on the stormraven a turn. 3d6 damage averages out to 10-11 damage per turn, leaving the stormraven with 3-4 wounds after a single turn of shooting which could very well push it in to the range of hitting on 5+. Or just destroy it outright depending on your roll. Even without the captain you still do a lot of damage to it and will probably take it out in two turns.

So, you're going to whine, what if it goes after your lascannon squads? Well, then it's not shooting your tanks now, is it?

330 points of anti-vehicle firepower to potentially kill and definitely cripple 318 points of flyer in a single turn, and DEFINITELY kill it in two turns, isn't unreasonable. And I'm pretty sure you have better ways to deliver lascannons to the battlefield than devastators anyway.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

Who takes anything other then the SR anyway