Switch Theme:

Planetary Invasions - Help Me Understand  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




The difference between the War on Terror and a planetary assault by the Astartes (or wars in our own past) is that the Astartes aren't bound by treaties and laws governing what you should and should not do with local populaces. The Coalition is.


Another good point and another good example why real world comparisons only go so far. You don't need to worry about where in the hive city the enemy is hiding if you can just level the hive city ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

If you're already at the scale where you are leveling cities, why does landing troops matter? And if you did have to land troops, why not land the guard or mechanicus? The former has leveled cities through sheer bloodyminded determination, and the latter has tanks that can level cities in a single shot.

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:


The whole War on Terror example I posted earlier is indication that the whole 'drop in and kill the leaders' idea doesn't really work when it's a hearts and minds thing rather than a single person driving it, so it would work for a single corrupt governor but would probably be completely ineffective against anything that actually had popular support.
.


The difference between the War on Terror and a planetary assault by the Astartes (or wars in our own past) is that the Astartes aren't bound by treaties and laws governing what you should and should not do with local populaces. The Coalition is.


What should or should not be done to the populace is precisely what makes the War on Terror pretty much unwinnable using the tactics the Coalition is using (air strikes and kill the leadership). That's what the article I linked was explaining, and is usually missed by a lot of people when they talk about it. It's the fact that continual hostilities (including air strikes which are more indiscriminate than we'd like) creates deeper rooted hatred towards the Coalition and the West in general that perpetuates the War on Terror.

When actually interviewing insurgents, it's not typically 'we're fighting because we've been whipped up into a fanatical frenzy by X charismatic leader'. It's usually 'we're fighting because airstrikes killed my family and levelled our home' or 'my friend was an insurgent and was shot by the Coalition, so now I'm fighting too'. The reason that piece of work has taken place is because the assumed tactic of 'take out the leadership' was proving ineffective. It's a common misconception of applying the rules of state-to-state warfare (where armies rely on the leadership and co-ordination of generals) to a completely different conflict (grass-roots resistance to what's viewed as a foreign invasion).

How this relates to Astartes is that the lack of rules of engagement, meaning more indiscriminate strikes and even greater civilian casualties, would simply have the effect of galvanising the population against the Marines even faster. Especially seeing as any rogue Governor worth his salt will ensure that the Marines are portrayed as a foreign invader and the populace is fighting for their homes and very survival.

Perhaps this is why the Marines are used, building on the propaganda point from earlier. Perhaps they're used to try and break that hold the governor has on the population, pitching themselves as the very messengers of the Emperor himself and turning the population against the governor without having to rely on their (inadequate if they're 100 men) force of arms.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you're already at the scale where you are leveling cities, why does landing troops matter? And if you did have to land troops, why not land the guard or mechanicus? The former has leveled cities through sheer bloodyminded determination, and the latter has tanks that can level cities in a single shot.

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?


This.

The point of 'pacifying' a planet is so that you can still use its resources. Not necessarily people as they're pretty much worthless in the 40k universe, but infrastructure is important. Hives are colossal edifices that do a great deal of the lower-scale manufacturing for the Imperial war effort. Just levelling them from orbit when a governor goes bad isn't a great idea.


Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you're already at the scale where you are leveling cities, why does landing troops matter? And if you did have to land troops, why not land the guard or mechanicus? The former has leveled cities through sheer bloodyminded determination, and the latter has tanks that can level cities in a single shot.

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?


Because sometimes you want to capture and not simply destroy.

Space Marines are shock troops. They're weapons of terror in and of themselves, and they're the best special forces you can get. The Imperial Guard are ultimately just line troops, with varying levels of quality.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Totally agreed. My homebrew Marine Chapter already has a dedicated Chapter serf/IG force. I find the aesthetic of an army of common soldiers led by a small group of giant demi-gods to be very attractive. Especially now that with the Primaris, Marines actually stand out from the crowd. Space Marine armies would be so much more interesting if they offered options for Chapter serfs.


Neat! I always like to see this played out in people's armies it certainly is a great aesthetic, helped by the embiggened Primaris miniatures. I keep meaning to have a stab at it myself, doing a take on 'Red Templars' as sort of space-Knights Hospitallers with a load of men-at-arms supporting them.

There's tons of cool things you can do. Roman-style up-teched auxilia for the Ultramarines. Failed aspirants-turned combat servitors for Iron Hands. A load of screaming fanatical loonies bedecked in gold that trail the Imperial Fists around (basically terra-groupies). Light-cavalry bikers like mongol-style dragoons for the White Scars. Covert spec-ops style dudes for Raven Guard. Techno-barbaric warriors for the Space Wolves.

It's not just realistic, it's a damn cool idea too

Ooh, forgot about these awesome conversions for Space Wolf mortal auxilia:
Spoiler:


Awesome! I totally have to do something with that failed aspirants idea. So many ideas, so little time...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Yeah that does make sense, although I still don't think the Marines stand a hope in hell against any of the targets they'd be required to fight if there's only 100 of them (plus vehicle crew). It's honestly a laughably small force that, barring orbital bombardment, I'm fairly certain our armed forces could take. Even if it's only tank shells that can penetrate Power Armour, there's more than enough tanks in the US alone to outnumber Marines 2-to-1.
That is not entirely true. It is true in an absolute sense, but it does not take into account the realities of combat. The US has maybe a few thousand tanks, but those are spread around the country, stored in depots and on military bases. Their crews too, are not constantly sitting in their tanks waiting for Marines to drop from the sky. If Marines strike Washington DC, there are maybe only 2-3 military bases in close enough proximity to contribute to the fight. And those are of course the places the Marines are going to be targeting first. Now Marines don't just walk in through the front door, they strike from orbit. The soldiers at the base will have no warning whatsoever that they are going to be attacked until the drop pods crash down in their midst. At that point the battle is already lost for them. Attacked totally out of the blue, with almost invulnerable giants wreaking havoc everywhere across the base, it will be very hard if not impossible for them to set up a coordinated defense. In the resulting chaos, their morale will be shattered very quickly and they will run. Even if they outnumber the Marines 10-1. Thing is, the soldiers won't know they outnumber the Marines by so much, and the chaos of a surprise attack won't leave them with the time needed to gather intelligence and find out.
Meanwhile, the other bases might be attacked at the same time. If not, they would likely get word that the first base is under attack relatively quickly, and send reinforcements. But the Marines aren't going to sit around and wait until they are surrounded by overwhelming forces, they will withdraw and then strike the next base in the same manner while the defenders are still dealing with the aftermath of the first attack. While the local garrison in DC is being kept busy in this manner, another squad of Space Marines strikes the Pentagon, and another the White House and Capitol.

Basically, Marines don't invade planets by engaging the full power of the defenders in a big conventional war. That is the Guard's job. Marines use shock and awe tactics to quickly shatter the defender's morale and chain of command, leaving their forces paralysed. It won't work against every kind of opponent in 40k (fanatical Chaos worshippers, Orks etc.) but it would be pretty effective against your average planet defended by average Human soldiers that just so happen to serve a rebellious governor or commander.

I do agree that a Space Marine company is way too small to engage in the kind of battles they are often portrayed as fighting in the fluff. In the fluff, they don't just do shock and awe, but also siege fortresses, engage in tank battles etc. IG regiments face the same problem. A conflict like the Wars on Armageddon seems big, until you realise that the entire Imperial force in one of the biggest intergalactic wars of all time is less than what got deployed for single battles on the Eastern Front in WWII.
But for a planetary invasion, (assuming the target is a rebellious Imperial world) a 100 Marines would be sufficient. Like ISIS captured much of Syria and Iraq with just a few thousand guys (while being heavily outnumbered by the Iraqi forces) or the German army conquered France and much of the Soviet Union while being heavily outmatched. Just shatter their morale and then don't give them time to rally and realise they could easily take you on. Panicked as they are, they will keep running or surrendering as you chase them.
War is not about killing your opponents. It is about making them lose the will to fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 16:23:55


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?

React quicker.

Even if every Marine is only worth 10 other troops or whatever they're able to deploy much faster. Whilst the Guard would still be mustering or waiting for the Navy and the Mechanicus would need to organise themselves the Space Marines are able to receive a message, decide whether or not they respond to it and deploy their forces much more quickly. They don't have the same bureaucratic or equipment limitations.

They're probably more effective being used to defend besieged Imperial planets than attacking hostile ones because of that.

For Space Marines to take a world by themselves they need to be able to deploy orbital fire with ease (even if you don't bomb civilian centres you can destroy any army in the field), have an enemy that will fold without leadership (which is easily destroyed), have a load of native forces they could easily recruit as allies (like happened with the Spanish conquests in the New World) or each Marine is more like a Black Library Marine than a Codex Marine and as such could take on a hundred or more soldiers with ease (whereupon the force multiplication allows them to individually destroy enemy elements with minimal casualties).
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:


The whole War on Terror example I posted earlier is indication that the whole 'drop in and kill the leaders' idea doesn't really work when it's a hearts and minds thing rather than a single person driving it, so it would work for a single corrupt governor but would probably be completely ineffective against anything that actually had popular support.
.


The difference between the War on Terror and a planetary assault by the Astartes (or wars in our own past) is that the Astartes aren't bound by treaties and laws governing what you should and should not do with local populaces. The Coalition is.


What should or should not be done to the populace is precisely what makes the War on Terror pretty much unwinnable using the tactics the Coalition is using (air strikes and kill the leadership). That's what the article I linked was explaining, and is usually missed by a lot of people when they talk about it. It's the fact that continual hostilities (including air strikes which are more indiscriminate than we'd like) creates deeper rooted hatred towards the Coalition and the West in general that perpetuates the War on Terror.

When actually interviewing insurgents, it's not typically 'we're fighting because we've been whipped up into a fanatical frenzy by X charismatic leader'. It's usually 'we're fighting because airstrikes killed my family and levelled our home' or 'my friend was an insurgent and was shot by the Coalition, so now I'm fighting too'. The reason that piece of work has taken place is because the assumed tactic of 'take out the leadership' was proving ineffective. It's a common misconception of applying the rules of state-to-state warfare (where armies rely on the leadership and co-ordination of generals) to a completely different conflict (grass-roots resistance to what's viewed as a foreign invasion).

How this relates to Astartes is that the lack of rules of engagement, meaning more indiscriminate strikes and even greater civilian casualties, would simply have the effect of galvanising the population against the Marines even faster. Especially seeing as any rogue Governor worth his salt will ensure that the Marines are portrayed as a foreign invader and the populace is fighting for their homes and very survival.

Perhaps this is why the Marines are used, building on the propaganda point from earlier. Perhaps they're used to try and break that hold the governor has on the population, pitching themselves as the very messengers of the Emperor himself and turning the population against the governor without having to rely on their (inadequate if they're 100 men) force of arms.



Except thats not always the case. When you go in and put the opposition down hard, its done, for the time being at least. Its been done effectively time and again in our history. Does it come back to bite later? Sure, but they are (and were) concerned with the now. And that is very much an Imperium way of looking at it. You've crushed them utterly. They can take the propaganda stance you mentioned while doing it as well. After all they are the Emperor's Avenging Angels, sent to destroy those who would stand against the Emperor. A charismatic governor can try to convince the population that the Astartes are invaders, but then he's going against the dogma they have been force fed their whole lives. Suddenly this governor is denouncing God's Angels? Not just when they are far away and a myth, but now that they are here?

Now you've got a force with no RoE, that still can speak to the Religious Fervor of the Locals.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Grey Templar wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you're already at the scale where you are leveling cities, why does landing troops matter? And if you did have to land troops, why not land the guard or mechanicus? The former has leveled cities through sheer bloodyminded determination, and the latter has tanks that can level cities in a single shot.

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?


Because sometimes you want to capture and not simply destroy.

Space Marines are shock troops. They're weapons of terror in and of themselves, and they're the best special forces you can get. The Imperial Guard are ultimately just line troops, with varying levels of quality.


I'm not sure this is true anymore. Sure, it used to be the fluff, but special forces don't field superheavy tanks, main battle tanks, heavy artillery, orbit-capable spacecraft... really anything heavier than a Rhino or Razorback and you've completely left the park on the issue of "special forces". Right now, the SM seem like super expensive line troops that are 100x the cost of guardsmen but still die when the heavy tank they're crewing goes nuclear.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

What do the space marines do that another imperial organization does not do better?

React quicker.

Even if every Marine is only worth 10 other troops or whatever they're able to deploy much faster. Whilst the Guard would still be mustering or waiting for the Navy and the Mechanicus would need to organise themselves the Space Marines are able to receive a message, decide whether or not they respond to it and deploy their forces much more quickly. They don't have the same bureaucratic or equipment limitations.

They're probably more effective being used to defend besieged Imperial planets than attacking hostile ones because of that.

For Space Marines to take a world by themselves they need to be able to deploy orbital fire with ease (even if you don't bomb civilian centres you can destroy any army in the field), have an enemy that will fold without leadership (which is easily destroyed), have a load of native forces they could easily recruit as allies (like happened with the Spanish conquests in the New World) or each Marine is more like a Black Library Marine than a Codex Marine and as such could take on a hundred or more soldiers with ease (whereupon the force multiplication allows them to individually destroy enemy elements with minimal casualties).


So essentially for Marines to do the job that Guard could do on effectively any world, there has to be a whole bunch of "insert plot device here" going for them - like, sure, if assassinating Stalin with a OSS operative destroyed the Soviet Union then I suppose OSS would be a really attractive weapon. But I have a hard time believing that barring certain situations (psychic dominance of a whole planet, and .... that's it) assassinating a few leadership positions will somehow win a war by itself.

And it's a question of pacification again. If they are trying to preserve the world, you need bodies to occupy the physical space. Being able to kill someone 200 times over with a butter knife in .5 seconds doesn't help if they just nuked the arbites fortress-precinct five towns over. And if you're not trying to preserve a world, why deploy someone who is able to kill someone 200 times over with a butter knife in .5 seconds when you could just kill seven billion people seven billion times over with a orbital strike in .001 seconds?

I can see the speed argument, but surely you can do that without spending huge amounts of dosh on expensive regular people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 16:34:11


 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






@Iron Captain i'd wager a sodding great starship materialising in system might give them some indication to mobilise troops. If not, then when it releases Thunderhawks and Drop Pods which are fairly obviously military vehicles they might catch on. Even if they're not sure if they're peaceful it's likely that armed forces will be put on high alert and brass moved to secure defended bunkers.

Similar thing would take place on a 40k world.

I also question somewhat the validity of drop pods as stealth craft. See a meteor detatch from a ship in orbit and head straight to your position (which is presumably of tactical significance if the Marines are targeting it) it's going to be pretty obvious what's going to happen. Re-entry for the space shuttle takes about an hour. Reasonable amount of time to mobilise at least a cursory force to key strategic areas and evacuate leadership. Less if you're in a compact hive.

I do absolutely agree with you though that the chaos and confusion of their landing could be used to their advantage. Especially if the defenders don't know what they're dealing with.

So the list of viable targets for Marines gets ever smaller. To be effective, they need to be sent against a planet with minimal defences, that's never seen or heard of Marines before, has issues caused by a single rogue governor rather than general dissent, but doesn't have a unified resistance force.

Pretty specific set of circumstances...

@SomeRandomEvilGuy now that makes sense! Marines aren't used to quell genuine rebellions. They're used as propaganda shock and awe tools to bully governers who are wavering in their faith, rather than ones that have actually done anything. They are better suited to this than the Guard by dint of being quicker to react

Now that works for 100 Marines. More diplomats with guns than anything else. Not exactly heroic, but realistic

I also like the idea of Marines being dispatched individually to head emperor-sanctioned resistance movements of local fighters, using their charisma and tactical acumen. That would play nicely into an INQ28-style warband

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
i'd wager a sodding great starship materialising in system might give them some indication to mobilise troops. If not, then when it releases Thunderhawks and Drop Pods which are fairly obviously military vehicles they might catch on. Even if they're not sure if they're peaceful it's likely that armed forces will be put on high alert and brass moved to secure defended bunkers.

Similar thing would take place on a 40k world.



Except why would a ship entering system be a cause for alarm on an Imperial Hive World? It would be a common occurrence, even a Warship would be a common enough occurrence, particularly for Hive Worlds. Unless the Governor and his men mobilize every time the Navy shows up, which would be cause for alarm on the Navy's side of things, their first indication that they are being invaded would be the Drop Pods and Thunderhawks. Even if it takes an hour for re-entry, thats not enough time for enough of a stand up for military forces. Could the leaders get to a more secure location? Yes, but they'd still lose a large portion of their forces to surprise. And they would lose even more if Orbital Strikes on key locations started the same time the Invasion was launched.
   
Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Oh I agree, with the idea. Just them bluffing and making a show of force could be way more effective than trying to fight a whole planet. I just don't think something like that would ever occur to Azreal or Grimnar if they were told to take down a governor. Standing around looking pretty isn't really in their psyche, or any space marines.

Plus the public place would need to be where the governor is to get the full effect. Make that Hive City or w/e go get him. But then again, if you can drop down into a public place why not just drop into his mansion and get him yourself?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
i'd wager a sodding great starship materialising in system might give them some indication to mobilise troops. If not, then when it releases Thunderhawks and Drop Pods which are fairly obviously military vehicles they might catch on. Even if they're not sure if they're peaceful it's likely that armed forces will be put on high alert and brass moved to secure defended bunkers.

Similar thing would take place on a 40k world.



Except why would a ship entering system be a cause for alarm on an Imperial Hive World? It would be a common occurrence, even a Warship would be a common enough occurrence, particularly for Hive Worlds. Unless the Governor and his men mobilize every time the Navy shows up, which would be cause for alarm on the Navy's side of things, their first indication that they are being invaded would be the Drop Pods and Thunderhawks. Even if it takes an hour for re-entry, thats not enough time for enough of a stand up for military forces. Could the leaders get to a more secure location? Yes, but they'd still lose a large portion of their forces to surprise. And they would lose even more if Orbital Strikes on key locations started the same time the Invasion was launched.


That is something I didn't think about. In my experience it can take days, close to a week, to mobilize the full combat power of an armor brigade. This is going from a complete garrison mindset to preparing to roll out assuming the men and equipment are already in the same place. Having even 1-2 days wouldn't be enough time to prepare for a space marine assault.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 17:27:37


Dark Angels - 8000
Blood Angels - 4000
Astra Militarum - 2000
 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Iron Captain i'd wager a sodding great starship materialising in system might give them some indication to mobilise troops. If not, then when it releases Thunderhawks and Drop Pods which are fairly obviously military vehicles they might catch on. Even if they're not sure if they're peaceful it's likely that armed forces will be put on high alert and brass moved to secure defended bunkers.
Similar thing would take place on a 40k world. I also question somewhat the validity of drop pods as stealth craft. See a meteor detatch from a ship in orbit and head straight to your position (which is presumably of tactical significance if the Marines are targeting it) it's going to be pretty obvious what's going to happen. Re-entry for the space shuttle takes about an hour. Reasonable amount of time to mobilise at least a cursory force to key strategic areas and evacuate leadership. Less if you're in a compact hive.
When you are on a planet you can't really see if and what spaceships are flying around in your system or even in orbit. You either need to have someone look through a telescope that just so happens to be aimed exactly right or you need some kind of sensors or defending space fleet, which the average world in 40k isn't going to have unless it is an important center of something (at which case they usually send in the Navy and more than a single Marine company in the fluff). On our present-day world and most 40k worlds, an attack from space would come as a total surprise.
That is true even if the Space Marine ship is detected. Even if you know the Marines have arrived, you still don't know when and where they will strike. And putting the entire planetary defense force on high alert and keeping all leaders locked away in bunkers isn't going to be a viable thing to do for longer periods of time. Especially not since in the fluff, even the mere rumour that the Space Marines are coming is often enough to send entire planetary populations into a panic. At such a moment, a leader would need to be visible and in a position to lead, not cowering in a bunker. That way the Marines won't even have to land in order to take the planet.
Not to mention the fact that the Marines could just strike before anything could be mobilised...


 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I do absolutely agree with you though that the chaos and confusion of their landing could be used to their advantage. Especially if the defenders don't know what they're dealing with.
So the list of viable targets for Marines gets ever smaller. To be effective, they need to be sent against a planet with minimal defences, that's never seen or heard of Marines before, has issues caused by a single rogue governor rather than general dissent, but doesn't have a unified resistance force.

Pretty specific set of circumstances...
Yes, but it covers the majority of conflicts in 40k that do not involve Xenos or Chaos. Most planets in 40k have only minimal defences (again, unless they are really important), virtually all people in 40k have never seen a Space Marine before and dissent pretty much always is limited to the leadership (given that the common masses are ignorant peasants who couldn't care less about politics). Unified resistance forces in the form of a PDF would be common, but again they'd be spread out across an entire planet and unable to mobilise and focus their power in the time required.

Against the average planet in 40k, a company of Space Marines would work really well. It is the important places, such as heavily defended fortress worlds or forge worlds where things start to fall apart.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 17:36:13


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Hmmm, you have a point about warahips being common. You're right, they wouldn't up-arm just for one.

If it drops in and starts shelling, you get the void shields up asap. If you can't you're boned. If you can then retreat to your bunker and scramble your forces. You're right the Marines would take them by surprise, but i don't think they have the capability to take out even a significant proportion of the opposing forces at 100-men strong. They could expend every bolt they have, with every one of them killing an enemy soldier and not make a dent in their forces simply because of how outnumbered they are even in the best case scenario i laid out before where 99% of the hive doesn't give two hoots about the Marines, amd the remaining 1% are so mind-numbingly incompetent that only one in ten even hits the Marines with a single bullet.

If they can equal that with orbital bombardment...then you might as well send a Navy ship which are more numerous than SM chapters.

All of that is fixed if Marine Chapters are just a little bit bigger, and come with support from serfs and/or IG.

I do prefer that option in addition to the 'propaganda tool' idea as i do like my post-human supersoldiers to get some smashy time too

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





All this talk about serfs makes me really want to paint some up for my marines haha

Dark Angels - 8000
Blood Angels - 4000
Astra Militarum - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hmmm, you have a point about warahips being common. You're right, they wouldn't up-arm just for one.

If it drops in and starts shelling, you get the void shields up asap. If you can't you're boned. If you can then retreat to your bunker and scramble your forces. You're right the Marines would take them by surprise, but i don't think they have the capability to take out even a significant proportion of the opposing forces at 100-men strong. They could expend every bolt they have, with every one of them killing an enemy soldier and not make a dent in their forces simply because of how outnumbered they are even in the best case scenario i laid out before where 99% of the hive doesn't give two hoots about the Marines, amd the remaining 1% are so mind-numbingly incompetent that only one in ten even hits the Marines with a single bullet.


They dont need to make a dent in their numbers, they just need to hit their munitions and supply. They can kill the soldiers as they go about it for an added bonus.

If they can equal that with orbital bombardment...then you might as well send a Navy ship which are more numerous than SM chapters.

The thing is its not just about the bombardment, that's why you send the Marines. The Bombardment softens defences, kills large numbers of the unaware defenders. The Marines hit the locations were the remaining defenders gather, the aforementioned Supply and Munitions locations on a base, the Palace for the Symbolism.

All of that is fixed if Marine Chapters are just a little bit bigger, and come with support from serfs and/or IG.


Being bigger would help, I wont argue that. And in the confines of our example, which is a total war, then yes IG would be handy and likely on the way while the Marines significantly soften the targets. In the cases where they just need to show up, and make one strike not so much.

I do prefer that option in addition to the 'propaganda tool' idea as i do like my post-human supersoldiers to get some smashy time too


LIke I mentioned, there's no reason why they aren't propaganda while doing the smashy smash. They are the Emperor's Avenging Angels after all, and they've come for your Governor.
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

Planetary invasions do happen in 40k.

How, you might ask?

Exact methods vary but you should get a clear picture when you read fluff about the major wars of the setting.

When it comes to Imperium, they are usually joint efforts where IG, Marines and other imperial armed forces fight together. Even IG and Marines working together is scarily effective. The guard will meet the enemy in open war while the marines use their drop pods, teleportariums and gunships to cripple the enemy's weak points. And that's without Imperial Titans and Ordinatus...

Edit: And not to mention, the Imperial warmachine is extremely well organized. Just imagine the difference in mindset when it comes to a regular modern day humanbeing vs. a space marine.. or even a guardsman who has been shipped to the other side of the galaxy to wage war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 18:16:32


"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Wars in the Imperium do not "usually" involve the Space Marines.

The vast vast vast vast vast majority of wars involve the PDF and sometimes the Imperial Guard.

There are literally fewer individual space marines than there are planets in the imperium. People forget that.
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Hmmm, you have a point about warahips being common. You're right, they wouldn't up-arm just for one.

If it drops in and starts shelling, you get the void shields up asap. If you can't you're boned. If you can then retreat to your bunker and scramble your forces. You're right the Marines would take them by surprise, but i don't think they have the capability to take out even a significant proportion of the opposing forces at 100-men strong. They could expend every bolt they have, with every one of them killing an enemy soldier and not make a dent in their forces simply because of how outnumbered they are even in the best case scenario i laid out before where 99% of the hive doesn't give two hoots about the Marines, amd the remaining 1% are so mind-numbingly incompetent that only one in ten even hits the Marines with a single bullet.
True. But they won't have to make a dent in the enemy force. Again, wars are not won through killing people. Wars are won by making them drop out of the fight. This is done by destroying/seizing key objectives as well as shattering enemy morale. Two things Marines excel at.
When the pods start dropping, you likely won't have void shields to get up (void shields are rare and ancient archeotech), your bunker might be too far away to run to and your forces will take way too long to scramble if they are even still loyal. Then, with you and all other senior rebel leaders dead, your armies won't really have a reason to fight anymore and the planet surrenders to the Marines. It is not like the common peasants who make up the PDF really cared about your rebellion anyway. At least not enough to fight what pretty much are manifestations of god himself. Even if they do continue to fight, the Marines could use shock and awe tactics to quickly break their morale.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If they can equal that with orbital bombardment...then you might as well send a Navy ship which are more numerous than SM chapters.

True, and most rebellions do probably get quelled by the Navy. But the Navy isn't nearly as glorious as the heroic SPACE MARINES. So we hear about those rare times the Navy wasn't around and a group of Marines did happen to be close by and stopped the rebellion, but we do not hear about all those times the Navy has stopped rebellions.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


I do prefer that option in addition to the 'propaganda tool' idea as i do like my post-human supersoldiers to get some smashy time too


LIke I mentioned, there's no reason why they aren't propaganda while doing the smashy smash. They are the Emperor's Avenging Angels after all, and they've come for your Governor.

Yeah. I agree with that. Space Marines won't drop into a public place to stand around and look menacing, they will drop into a public place and turn it into a firestorm, slaughtering and destroying indiscriminately (unless they are Salamanders of course. Salamanders are nice guys). Then they disappear again, leaving with the warning 'turn over your governor or this will be the fate of your entire planet'. And they won't be joking. The Imperium isn't shy about purging entire planets. At that point, I'd wager that only the most fanatically rebellious populations would not surrender.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/14 18:18:21


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wars in the Imperium do not "usually" involve the Space Marines.

The vast vast vast vast vast majority of wars involve the PDF and sometimes the Imperial Guard.

There are literally fewer individual space marines than there are planets in the imperium. People forget that.


Yeah, this is one of those things people forget about I think, because the perspectives we get of the 40k universe (as gamers) is skewed.

A lot of the factions in the game fall victim to this, actually.

There are very few engagements involving marines relative to the total number of conflicts; which is why when marines do show up it's treated in-universe as a big freakin' deal. Most Imperial citizens hear little and see less (if they ever see anything at all) of the Astartes over the course of their lives. They're called the Angels of Death not just by reputation but because they have a literal mythology built up around them.

Similarly, the Mechanicum, for example, while fully capable of waging wars are not actually a major fighting force in the Imperium. They're dangerous combatants, sure, but they likely aren't actually engaging in combat all that often relative to everything else they are busy doing.

The Tau, also, while major players in their pocket of the galaxy are small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. The Imperium at large probably has trouble distinguishing them for any of dozens (or hundreds, or thousands) of similar upstart alien empires.

And it goes on and on.

Most conflicts in 40k involving the Imperium are fought with the Imperial Guard and PDF forces - both of which vary pretty wildly (though the Guard less so) in terms of capabilities, etc.

When marines do show up they tend to take their foes by surprise and win through the swift and precise application of overwhelming force. The background even does a pretty good job of acknowledging this when they are involved in protracted engagements in traditional warzones - the regular humans do the bulk of the work while the marines concentrate their efforts where their strength and mobility can do the most harm to their enemies. They're a scalpel that hits with the force of a sledgehammer.

It's worth pointing out, too, that even though some people have mentioned marine chapters perform a lot of frontline duties not really suited to traditional special forces, they do so entirely at their own discretion. Unlike the Guard relying on the Navy to sort out their logistical problems for them (and the nightmare that is logistics for thousands or millions of troops), marines have the ability to deploy virtually any tool they desire anywhere they want it very quickly with their own landers and drop ships and drop pods, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that if the USMC could deploy a squadron of M1 Abrams pretty much at-will via orbital drop, they would. And having that kind of capability would drastically impact the type of missions they entertain in the first place, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 18:42:03


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wars in the Imperium do not "usually" involve the Space Marines.

The vast vast vast vast vast majority of wars involve the PDF and sometimes the Imperial Guard.

There are literally fewer individual space marines than there are planets in the imperium. People forget that.


Oh, I were speaking about major wars. That's when things get tricky and imperium plays more than one card. Pouring just marines or just guardsmen won't cut it in these cases. Examples: Pretty much all of the wars that are mentioned in the official fluff. Especially those that are the setting for the world wide campaigns in real world.

If it's just some backwater world, just sending an IG-regiment (or two) or a detachment of Marines is enough. Heck, even AdMech's forces can take some planets unaided. Examples: Wars that aren't mentioned in the fluff, like "the setting" for a pick-up game of 40k. Or wars that are the setting for the umphteenth Black Library book about some Imperial Guy and how he and his posse won a war* unaided.

*Can't be Armageddon or other major event.

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





United States

In the Gaunts Ghosts series almost every major conflict is won without the aid of space marines. The only book that Astartes appear in is one where they are used to aid in breaching into a space hulk, so special forces type stuff.

13th Stor-Bezashk and Ezurum Fusiliers - Army of Dark Compliance Plog -

SoCal Open Horus Heresy Narrative Event FB Page

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

RedCommander wrote:
Planetary invasions do happen in 40k.
.


They do. Something on the planet must be worth something, enough for it to mean lives, rather than just bombardment.

or it is possible that there is some combination. Orbital bombardment culls 99% of the population, ground troops mop up.
If the planet itself is what you want, you might not want to completely melt the crust, still you could crater the largest cities, release virus bombs to kill the populate, and shell the citadels into rubble and still have something that could come back to 'normal' in 30 years.

You know how many space marines it would take to conquer our earth if the 50 largest cities were all destroyed, communication were knocked out, and there were dust clouds that blocked out the sun for 30 years?
NOT MANY. Imagine any post apocolyptic movie you have ever seen, except instead of some random zombies running around you have a few hundred super soldiers roving around conquring places. It might take them 5 years, but they would mop up everything, and while they were doing it they could build a government and society to rule from when they left.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






So again, we're at the point that Space Marines are more than capable of conquering worthless rocks with nothing on them, at which point you might as well send a more numerous Navy ship to do that anyway and then mop up with naval Armsmen if necessary. The SM are superfluous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing SM. I like the idea that a small force of them can do well at pacifying a much larger population. However, realistically they will need far more than 100 dudes to do it on any world that's worth pacifying.

Even if SM are way, way, way beyond what even BL thinks they're physically capable of it's still unlikely. It's the Superman principle. Superman is basically unstoppable beyond a specific weakness. The reason he has difficulty is that there's only one of him.

That's on top of the fact that 100 Marines aren't enough to overcome even token resistance.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
So again, we're at the point that Space Marines are more than capable of conquering worthless rocks with nothing on them, at which point you might as well send a more numerous Navy ship to do that anyway and then mop up with naval Armsmen if necessary. The SM are superfluous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing SM. I like the idea that a small force of them can do well at pacifying a much larger population. However, realistically they will need far more than 100 dudes to do it on any world that's worth pacifying.

Even if SM are way, way, way beyond what even BL thinks they're physically capable of it's still unlikely. It's the Superman principle. Superman is basically unstoppable beyond a specific weakness. The reason he has difficulty is that there's only one of him.

That's on top of the fact that 100 Marines aren't enough to overcome even token resistance.

They are superfluous in the same way that special forces in our modern militaries are superfluous. They don't do anything that more common soldiers can't do. But special forces do certain tasks way more effectively than normal troops. And that is why they exist. You want to have specialists alongside the generalists. Space Marines and naval armsmen can both pacify a planet. But the Space Marines do it far more effectively and can deal with greater resistance. Space Marines can and do conquer planets that are far more than 'worthless balls of rock with nothing on them'. Saying that SM are superfluous because they can't take heavily defended planets on their own is like saying a US marine company is superfluous because it can not conquer China or North Korea on its own.

If you still argue that 100 SM can't overcome token resistance you really need to start reading the fluff. There have been lots of attempts to explain the principles of how Space Marines work in this thread. At this point continuing to argue that Space Marines can't be effective in small numbers is just being obtuse. A Space Marine company will have no trouble overcoming the resistance on your average Imperial planet. Such is not only well-established in the fluff but it can also be based on actual arguments. Again, battles are not won by numbers or killing people. Battles are won by breaking the morale of your enemy. And Space Marines, due to the superior tactical advantage afforded by their orbital position and ability to strike and withdraw quickly can just play the hit-and-run game with defending garrisons until they break and surrender. It doesn't matter if there is a thousand, ten thousand or ten million enemies. They will never be in the place to project their force effectively. The Space Marines will.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Iron_Captain wrote:
On our present-day world and most 40k worlds, an attack from space would come as a total surprise. That is true even if the Space Marine ship is detected. Even if you know the Marines have arrived, you still don't know when and where they will strike. And putting the entire planetary defense force on high alert and keeping all leaders locked away in bunkers isn't going to be a viable thing to do for longer periods of time. Especially not since in the fluff, even the mere rumour that the Space Marines are coming is often enough to send entire planetary populations into a panic. At such a moment, a leader would need to be visible and in a position to lead, not cowering in a bunker. That way the Marines won't even have to land in order to take the planet.


The question isn't really whether the marine ship is detected or not, it's how long they give the people to reply to their "surrender to the sons of the Emperor" speech. Will they wait a minute? Ten? An hour? More? They will give the speech in one form or other, though. If the objectives can be achieved without wasting the Emperor's resources (both the marines and the local infrastructure and population) it's a flawless victory. Battle always presents a risk, no matter how small.
   
Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Spetulhu wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
On our present-day world and most 40k worlds, an attack from space would come as a total surprise. That is true even if the Space Marine ship is detected. Even if you know the Marines have arrived, you still don't know when and where they will strike. And putting the entire planetary defense force on high alert and keeping all leaders locked away in bunkers isn't going to be a viable thing to do for longer periods of time. Especially not since in the fluff, even the mere rumour that the Space Marines are coming is often enough to send entire planetary populations into a panic. At such a moment, a leader would need to be visible and in a position to lead, not cowering in a bunker. That way the Marines won't even have to land in order to take the planet.


The question isn't really whether the marine ship is detected or not, it's how long they give the people to reply to their "surrender to the sons of the Emperor" speech. Will they wait a minute? Ten? An hour? More? They will give the speech in one form or other, though. If the objectives can be achieved without wasting the Emperor's resources (both the marines and the local infrastructure and population) it's a flawless victory. Battle always presents a risk, no matter how small.


Would they even give them a chance to surrender though? Most would see them as traitors out right. They'd show up and get started immediately. At most they'd have from the time the battle barge entered the system to when it was stationed above the planet, assuming they can identify what kind of vessel it is and the space marines aren't trying to sneak into the system. There's always a good chance that they won't know the barge is there until it powers up right before the pods start raining down. In most the fluff I've read, when marines respond to a world that is rebelling they don't really have a "surrender" speech.

Dark Angels - 8000
Blood Angels - 4000
Astra Militarum - 2000
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 ILegion wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
On our present-day world and most 40k worlds, an attack from space would come as a total surprise. That is true even if the Space Marine ship is detected. Even if you know the Marines have arrived, you still don't know when and where they will strike. And putting the entire planetary defense force on high alert and keeping all leaders locked away in bunkers isn't going to be a viable thing to do for longer periods of time. Especially not since in the fluff, even the mere rumour that the Space Marines are coming is often enough to send entire planetary populations into a panic. At such a moment, a leader would need to be visible and in a position to lead, not cowering in a bunker. That way the Marines won't even have to land in order to take the planet.


The question isn't really whether the marine ship is detected or not, it's how long they give the people to reply to their "surrender to the sons of the Emperor" speech. Will they wait a minute? Ten? An hour? More? They will give the speech in one form or other, though. If the objectives can be achieved without wasting the Emperor's resources (both the marines and the local infrastructure and population) it's a flawless victory. Battle always presents a risk, no matter how small.


Would they even give them a chance to surrender though? Most would see them as traitors out right. They'd show up and get started immediately. At most they'd have from the time the battle barge entered the system to when it was stationed above the planet, assuming they can identify what kind of vessel it is and the space marines aren't trying to sneak into the system. There's always a good chance that they won't know the barge is there until it powers up right before the pods start raining down. In most the fluff I've read, when marines respond to a world that is rebelling they don't really have a "surrender" speech.

They might broadcast one as they attack. Like a "Lie on the ground, close your eyes and you won't be shot" kind of thing.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
So again, we're at the point that Space Marines are more than capable of conquering worthless rocks with nothing on them, at which point you might as well send a more numerous Navy ship to do that anyway and then mop up with naval Armsmen if necessary. The SM are superfluous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing SM. I like the idea that a small force of them can do well at pacifying a much larger population. However, realistically they will need far more than 100 dudes to do it on any world that's worth pacifying.

Even if SM are way, way, way beyond what even BL thinks they're physically capable of it's still unlikely. It's the Superman principle. Superman is basically unstoppable beyond a specific weakness. The reason he has difficulty is that there's only one of him.

That's on top of the fact that 100 Marines aren't enough to overcome even token resistance.

They are superfluous in the same way that special forces in our modern militaries are superfluous. They don't do anything that more common soldiers can't do. But special forces do certain tasks way more effectively than normal troops. And that is why they exist. You want to have specialists alongside the generalists. Space Marines and naval armsmen can both pacify a planet. But the Space Marines do it far more effectively and can deal with greater resistance. Space Marines can and do conquer planets that are far more than 'worthless balls of rock with nothing on them'. Saying that SM are superfluous because they can't take heavily defended planets on their own is like saying a US marine company is superfluous because it can not conquer China or North Korea on its own.

If you still argue that 100 SM can't overcome token resistance you really need to start reading the fluff. There have been lots of attempts to explain the principles of how Space Marines work in this thread. At this point continuing to argue that Space Marines can't be effective in small numbers is just being obtuse. A Space Marine company will have no trouble overcoming the resistance on your average Imperial planet. Such is not only well-established in the fluff but it can also be based on actual arguments. Again, battles are not won by numbers or killing people. Battles are won by breaking the morale of your enemy. And Space Marines, due to the superior tactical advantage afforded by their orbital position and ability to strike and withdraw quickly can just play the hit-and-run game with defending garrisons until they break and surrender. It doesn't matter if there is a thousand, ten thousand or ten million enemies. They will never be in the place to project their force effectively. The Space Marines will.


Was probably a little blunt and flowery with my wording, making my points unclear. Sorry about that.

I don't actually think Marines (or special forces as a concept) are superfluous. In the specific instance of Marines being able to bring their orbital bombardment to bear, it would be superfluous to have the Marines there as well. If they're willing to bombard from orbit and wreck the infrastructure of the planet, they might as well do it with a far more numerous Navy vessel as Space Marines are a very limited resource in the Imperium.

The phrase 'token resistance' was probably a bit disingenuous too. The full phrase should read 'moderately entrenched resistance', which means a planetary governor with reasonable military forces on his side who is smart enough to know what's coming for him, or a grass-roots anti-Imperium insurrection that by its nature isn't susceptible to having its leadership incapacitated.

I'm aware of the fluff. I'm also aware of how biased the fluff can be when it comes to the capabilities of Marines for the sake of the narrative. There's a reason phrases like 'plot armour' are bandied around as often as they are. What I'm trying to do is take an objective look at the augmentations and advantages Marines have over baseline humans (greater strength, endurance, accuracy, skill, equipment and ability to project their force in a single location) and weighing up whether I genuinely believe that would be enough to outweigh the advantages the baseline humans have (far, far greater numbers, access to weapons that are more than capable of killing Marines and knocking their Thunderhawks out of the sky, home turf advantage, fighting defensively) and trying to work out whether I think that a given piece of fluff is realistic or a flight of fantasy.

I'm not trying to work out whether it would be possible at all, as in infrequent circumstances there is evidence of smaller forces overcoming fantastic odds. I'm more trying to test through whether it's a viable enough tactic to be repeated often enough for it to be the Marines' modus operandi without them being wiped out after a few operations barring the application of handwavium about their capabilities. Not because I think the idea's stupid, but because I like the idea of Marines being the cavalry that the Guard call in when sh*t hits the fan. To be the cavalry, they need more than 100 men in my opinion for their tactics to be repeatable enough for Marine chapters to survive repeated engagements given their recruitment rate.

I like the idea of Marine tactics I think they'd work very effectively. Just not quite effectively enough to make it continually repeatable with the numbers they're using. Hell, I know it's all a bit of fun and of course stories with Marine protagonists are going to be bombastic and OTT. I suppose I just like the gritty realism a little more than the bombast. Doesn't make me more right or not, but given that this thread started as an objective view of how factions would invade somewhere I thought I'd try and apply that objectivity a little further than taking Marine capabilities in books at face value.

If I'm being a dick about it I don't mean to!

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

One thing to consider about planetary invasions is the following:

Let's say a planetary governor gets uppity. He refuses to pay his due taxes to the imperium, dubs himself as the sovereign ruler of his planet and declares that all imperial forces on his planets are to be killed on sight.

Do you know what is one of the most efficient ways for imperium to respond to this threat?

It is to do nothing. Yeah. That is, after reminding the governor that he and his planet stand now alone against a galaxy full of horrors. Should these horros decide to pay a visit to his planet... the imperium wouldn't send help. Because let's face it, if there's one thing the imperium does well even in the current age, it is to wage war.

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





I'll admit, I skimmed. Did anyone mention just putting the world under a blockade? Have fun feeding your billion rebels in a hive city on a mining planet with no/little food.

There is a reason that there are entire planets dedicated to agricultural, and my guess would be that transporting that food across interstellar distances isn't easy, or cheap. That means that it must be necessary.

You lightning-strike-orbital-droppod-whatever raids are going to hit the leaders, sure. But they are also going to hit your ammo stores, water purifiers, and food supplies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/15 15:41:28


From Iron, cometh Strength. From Strength, cometh Will. From Will, cometh Faith. From Faith, cometh Honour. From Honour, cometh Iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany, and may it forever be so  
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: