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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Manchu wrote:
It's not patronising to point out that we're talking about budegting disposable income when the complaint is about the price of toys. Whether a given person can afford to buy everything they want cannot form the basis of a valid criticism about how much these toys cost.


It's absolutely patronising, because it relies on the assumption that the rest of us are too thick to have figured it out for ourselves - it's the wargaming equivalent of those cretins who respond to people pointing out that their rent is too high and their wages too low by telling them to eat less avocado toast and open a savings account. Regardless, whether a given person can buy everything they want isn't what's at issue, the issue is FFG's shoddy business model which makes everyone, super-budgeteer and avocado-toast munchers alike, pay more than they should have to.

Davor makes a good point. Many people are used to thinking about mini games from the perspective of being GW customers: models and rules are largely separate products. This is just not how FFG operates. When you buy a FFG game the box includes all kinds of components: cards, tokens, miniatures, etc. Each box expands the game. It may well be there is only one thing in the box you want. That is your issue, however, rather than FFG's.


Davor is talking complete nonsense, as are you. You've ruled out criticising FFG's business model based on affordability, and now you rule out criticising it by comparison to the business models of other companies - out of interest, what would be a valid criticism in your eyes? Because as it stands you're essentially arguing that no criticism of it can be valid.

FFG have chosen to structure their products in a certain way not because it is necessary, nor even because it makes sense, but in order to maximise revenue by requiring players buy expensive boxes to gain access to gameplay advantage-granting additional rules, which once again, are often necessary to fix prior releases which a cynical person might believe were made deliberately underpowered in order to "encourage" additional purchases. You can rationalise that all you like - it's garbage, and I suspect you know fine well it's garbage. Saying "that's just how they operate" when the thing I'm criticising is how they operate is just, epically redundant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/29 22:17:19


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LOL FFG's shoddy business model ... talk about "complete nonsense," you take the cake.

   
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Riverside, CA USA

"That's just how FFG operates" isn't a good excuse for their terrible (but effective, for them) marketing. It IS how they sell products however, and complaining about it won't change anything because it IS such a very successful business model for them. End consumers hate it, but like the game enough to put up with it.

I'm all for commiserating about it, but it gets brought up so fething often that it's just annoying at this point and adds nothing to the discussion. People hate the card thing, we get it. But the card thing isn't changing and there's ways around it like resellers breaking apart packs or making your own cards.

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Since when was criticising the price point of a consumer product irrelevant just because it isn't an essential good?!
   
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YouKnowsIt wrote:
Since when was criticising the price point of a consumer product irrelevant just because it isn't an essential good?!


Jezz man if you don't want to pay Ferrari prices buy an Honda.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Since when was criticising the price point of a consumer product irrelevant just because it isn't an essential good?!

Since first page of the 22 page announcement thread when people were already whining about it, followed by 22 pages of whining about it, and now a 4 page thread of mostly whining about it. And since all the whining in the world won't change how FFG is going to release expansion for Legions or any other FFG miniatures game, you may as well discuss the actual product.

"It is what it is", as they say

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/29 23:28:15


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Pardon if this is not an accurate comparison anymore, as I don't follow 40k anymore...

but what is the difference between buying an expansion for x wing to get an upgrade you want, and buying a new codex for the selection of units you own? In fact, I would argue the codex distribution design is actually more annoying, as all my previous codex become irrelevant

At least with FFG you get a miniature to go along with your cards
   
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WUWU wrote:
Pardon if this is not an accurate comparison anymore, as I don't follow 40k anymore...

but what is the difference between buying an expansion for x wing to get an upgrade you want, and buying a new codex for the selection of units you own? In fact, I would argue the codex distribution design is actually more annoying, as all my previous codex become irrelevant

At least with FFG you get a miniature to go along with your cards


The comparison does not hold up at all. If you buy a codex for some GW models, it is because you want to have rules to use those units on the battlefield. Fantasy Flight has been guilty way too many times of sticking a good card in a release that is otherwise pretty useless in and of itself, that likely very few would bother buying, if it were not for the latest game breaking card. Thus they have been able to successfully market a bunch of junk X-Wing ships. Kudos to them for exploiting a sales model, but it backfires eventually.
   
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The main reason why I got out of X-wing. At the start I didn't mind so much coz hey cool ships, and I didn't mind having rebel scum fighters to display beside my TIEs. As time passed though the cost per wave release seemed to be going higher and higher and the EU ships weren't half as enticing to me. So i got out.

But as Kalamadea said, hey it is what it is. The early days of Xwing were among the most fun I've had with minis, and I still fly casual now and then. FFG also seems to have moved away from this, for Runewars minis and I think Armada, you no longer have to buy out of faction to get all the upgrade cards.

Assuming this holds true for Legion as well, I'll probably buy into the system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 03:47:05


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 totalfailure wrote:

The comparison does not hold up at all. If you buy a codex for some GW models, it is because you want to have rules to use those units on the battlefield.

Not really. The point he was making was that in order to get rules to use my dreadnought and tactical squads, I also have to pay for rules for stormravens and landspeeders.

Ultimately, though, the purpose of the game is to sell. This is just one business model amongst many. It could be worse. They could be selling the cards in random, sealed booster packs, for example...

 
   
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Think I'll really enjoy getting the airbrush and weathering powders out for these, looks fairly detailed and hopefully make a good job of it.

Does anyone know when the core set is due to be released? Checked a couple of retailers, one is saying sometime next summer, the other just after X-mas. Has there been anything official?

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 Kalamadea wrote:

**I never understood why everyone treats them only as snowspeeders, they even mention in ESB that they were "having trouble adapting them to the cold". But since you only saw them on Hoth they got typecast


I believe that it's largely because for those us who grew up with the films, "Snowspeeder" was all over the toys and merch branding that we had at the time. So through decades of reiteration...

   
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 insaniak wrote:
 totalfailure wrote:

The comparison does not hold up at all. If you buy a codex for some GW models, it is because you want to have rules to use those units on the battlefield.

Not really. The point he was making was that in order to get rules to use my dreadnought and tactical squads, I also have to pay for rules for stormravens and landspeeders.


But that comparison still does not hold. A Codex is a one off purchase with a very long time period before the next one is released. The cards however are spread across multiple purchases which are also released in waves that are far more rapid than a Codex refresh.
   
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Well, it's all Horses for Courses.

Me, I'm not keen on the card based thing. But I'm not fussed about the book based thing.

I am right and wrong on both at the same time. Job done.

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The FFG Facebook Page just posted this supposedly in scale image of the AT-ST, a Stormtrooper & Darth Vader.



Assuming the picture from the t-47 article is correct and the Snowspeeder is on the same base as the AT-ST, it seems like it is going to be pretty well-scaled.



Same post also confirms the Core Set won't be out until next year alongside Wave I, rather than a bit earlier like myself and others had hoped.

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Looks good. I want one.

 Pacific wrote:
Think I'll really enjoy getting the airbrush and weathering powders out for these, looks fairly detailed and hopefully make a good job of it.

Does anyone know when the core set is due to be released? Checked a couple of retailers, one is saying sometime next summer, the other just after X-mas. Has there been anything official?


I'd be interested in a somewhat precise release date, too. All I read on Fantasy Flight's website is early 2018, which is a bit vague.

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 Geifer wrote:
Looks good. I want one.

 Pacific wrote:
Think I'll really enjoy getting the airbrush and weathering powders out for these, looks fairly detailed and hopefully make a good job of it.

Does anyone know when the core set is due to be released? Checked a couple of retailers, one is saying sometime next summer, the other just after X-mas. Has there been anything official?


I'd be interested in a somewhat precise release date, too. All I read on Fantasy Flight's website is early 2018, which is a bit vague.


FFG tend to be fairly vague until they're actually in a position to ship stuff, unfortunately.

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Ah, ok. Thanks. I have basically no experience with Fantasy Flight Games.

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East Coast, USA

 Geifer wrote:
Ah, ok. Thanks. I have basically no experience with Fantasy Flight Games.


FFG runs an "Upcoming Product" tracker on their website...

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/upcoming/

Basically, when a product is announced, it will appear and go through the following steps. The boat usually take a month or two and shipping to store take about 2 weeks, on average. You generally don't get a fixed release date until 2-3 weeks before release happens. If you pay attention to when things change status, you can kind of guess. They typically update statuses once a week on Wednesdays... not always, but usually.

* Announced/In Development
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* Shipping Now
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Good to know. Thank you.

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East Coast, USA

 Geifer wrote:
Good to know. Thank you.


Yeah. To add one note... essentially, when the core set hits "On the Boat" status, you're looking at about two to two and a half months before it hits the store. I'm not expecting it to hit the boat until mid to late November at the earliest, giving us a mid to late January release. It will probably go later and hit February or March.

For context, Runewars was announced in mid August 2016, just like Legion in mid August 2017. The Runewars core set hit stores in April. I'm expecting Legion to come out quicker, but probably not January quicker.

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Since Runewars though FFG/Asmodee have changed their distributer. The recent waves of X Wing & Armada have gone from On Boat in In Stores in a matter of a few weeks.

So Legion might follow suite.

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East Coast, USA

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Since Runewars though FFG/Asmodee have changed their distributer. The recent waves of X Wing & Armada have gone from On Boat in In Stores in a matter of a few weeks.

So Legion might follow suite.


True for certain products. In any case, the launch has been announced for Q1 2018, so January is the earliest we'll see anything and we'll still likely have a 2-3 week window before actual launch happens.

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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Thanks for the info on that Kriswall, very good to know!

Shame they are missing Xmas, although fortunately I can't be the only one grateful for a bit of extra time on their massive painting pile!

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East Coast, USA

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Since Runewars though FFG/Asmodee have changed their distributer. The recent waves of X Wing & Armada have gone from On Boat in In Stores in a matter of a few weeks.

So Legion might follow suite.


The most recent expansion for X-Wing, Guns for Hire, hit On the Boat status on 8/8 and hit stores on 10/26. That's ~11 weeks.
The most recent wave for Star Wars Armada, Imperial Light Carrier and Hammerhead, hit On the Boat status on 4/11 and hit stores on 7/6. That's ~12 weeks.

The last couple of releases actually support the timing of ~2 months on the boat plus ~3 weeks shipping before hitting stores. We're definitely not seeing products hit the boat and then appear in stores a few weeks later.

To be fair, I'm talking US here. It might be better in other parts of the world.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 19:16:02


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 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".

You can *just about* get away with it for a naval combat game when talking about, like, fighter craft, but there is zero excuse for it in a game like this, and less than zero when talking about a vehicle that's only a bit bigger than your average sedan.

*sigh* And I'll bet you a tenner that if a properly-scaled Snowspeeder kit does exist out there somewhere, it'll be one of those monstrously expensive "collector" things. Godammit FFG.

1/48 Scale star wars stuff exists, I saw some kits at hobby lobby that were around $30 or so. Looked like they had good detail too. I was considering using them for terrain back before I learned more stuff about legion.

I think it's this one https://www.amazon.com/Bandai-Hobby-Star-Speeder-Building/dp/B00U7A8MT4

and the AT-ST https://www.amazon.com/Bandai-AT-ST-Terrain-Transport-Walker/dp/B00RYSAQLY/ref=pd_sim_21_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RB6GRCCXG68GXGM88CFM


Hence why I complain about the game being "X-Wing" cards style rather than just having books. These models, the Star Wars Miniatures game Wizkids ran a while back, heck I've even seen metal 28mm Stormtrooper models, and more. It's just very annoying that these are legit, official models in the correct scale and you can't really use them for the game, at least not in sanctioned events. This is ironically even more stringent than say Games Workshop stores are. At least there I can use the models I picked up in Space Hulk or Silver Tower.

If someone tried this in historicals, or say GW told you you weren't allowed to use Space Hulk Miniatures in 40k, people would have pitchforks out right now.


I'm sure the game will be pretty good and all, I just feel they've unnecessarily restricted it and that is going to hurt it in the long run. Not allowing people to use models they already have from things such as Imperial Assault will inevitably sour some fans moods that would've otherwise bought in. It's a poor strategy for keeping loyalty, and just kind of reeks of trying to squeeze more money out of customers. It's not even like they've got something to worry about. It's star wars, this isn't some niche game system, I think FFG could easily survive people using other models and just buying the books/dice had that been an option. Other systems/manufacturers only cover so many options, so even people who were using things they bought elsewhere would start buying in with time. Historical companies do just fine for example, and you don't see Warlord complaining about people using Plastic Soldier Company, Tamiya, and countless other manufacturers in something like Bolt Action.

I will give FFG some credit, the prices for the models doesn't appear to be too bad. It's definitely at the higher end, especially for no more customization than what the models appear to have, but at least they're in line with something like GW Cadians price wise. I was expecting a squad of stormtroopers to be well over $30 for example. $25 for 7 (which means around $20 with typical 20% off online) means that you're around older GW pricing, and certainly better than say buying squads from a game like Warmachine, but definitely less value than buying historicals or other "non license" type miniatures.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 01:44:15


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East Coast, USA

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".

You can *just about* get away with it for a naval combat game when talking about, like, fighter craft, but there is zero excuse for it in a game like this, and less than zero when talking about a vehicle that's only a bit bigger than your average sedan.

*sigh* And I'll bet you a tenner that if a properly-scaled Snowspeeder kit does exist out there somewhere, it'll be one of those monstrously expensive "collector" things. Godammit FFG.

1/48 Scale star wars stuff exists, I saw some kits at hobby lobby that were around $30 or so. Looked like they had good detail too. I was considering using them for terrain back before I learned more stuff about legion.

I think it's this one https://www.amazon.com/Bandai-Hobby-Star-Speeder-Building/dp/B00U7A8MT4

and the AT-ST https://www.amazon.com/Bandai-AT-ST-Terrain-Transport-Walker/dp/B00RYSAQLY/ref=pd_sim_21_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RB6GRCCXG68GXGM88CFM


Hence why I complain about the game being "X-Wing" cards style rather than just having books. These models, the Star Wars Miniatures game Wizkids ran a while back, heck I've even seen metal 28mm Stormtrooper models, and more. It's just very annoying that these are legit, official models in the correct scale and you can't really use them for the game, at least not in sanctioned events. This is ironically even more stringent than say Games Workshop stores are. At least there I can use the models I picked up in Space Hulk or Silver Tower.

If someone tried this in historicals, or say GW told you you weren't allowed to use Space Hulk Miniatures in 40k, people would have pitchforks out right now.


I'm sure the game will be pretty good and all, I just feel they've unnecessarily restricted it and that is going to hurt it in the long run. Not allowing people to use models they already have from things such as Imperial Assault will inevitably sour some fans moods that would've otherwise bought in. It's a poor strategy for keeping loyalty, and just kind of reeks of trying to squeeze more money out of customers. It's not even like they've got something to worry about. It's star wars, this isn't some niche game system, I think FFG could easily survive people using other models and just buying the books/dice had that been an option. Other systems/manufacturers only cover so many options, so even people who were using things they bought elsewhere would start buying in with time. Historical companies do just fine for example, and you don't see Warlord complaining about people using Plastic Soldier Company, Tamiya, and countless other manufacturers in something like Bolt Action.

I will give FFG some credit, the prices for the models doesn't appear to be too bad. It's definitely at the higher end, especially for no more customization than what the models appear to have, but at least they're in line with something like GW Cadians price wise. I was expecting a squad of stormtroopers to be well over $30 for example. $25 for 7 (which means around $20 with typical 20% off online) means that you're around older GW pricing, and certainly better than say buying squads from a game like Warmachine, but definitely less value than buying historicals or other "non license" type miniatures.


A couple of points.

1. I get that some people don't like that the core rules are free and that unit and upgrade cards are included with the product. This creates a scenario where you're potentially buying a kit for the upgrade cards and not for the models. I've done that with both X-Wing and Armada. What I've NEVER done with X-Wing or Armada, though, is spend even a single penny on rule books. With a game like Warhammer 40k, if you want to play a variety of factions and keep your rules up to date from year to year, there is this passive expectation that you will have to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on rules. 7th Edition was particularly atrocious, with a multi faction army potentially requiring a Core Rulebook, 4-5 different Codexes and a few Campaign Books. I would much rather buy the occasional expansion box I don't really want for an upgrade card versus spending money on yet another rule book... which is normally a copy/paste of the previous edition with updated stats. Overall, I'm certain I've 'wasted' less money on expansion packs than I have on 40k rules that are now worthless.

2. In referencing the Bandai models, you say "these are legit, official models". In the context of Legion, no... they are not. The only official models are the ones that FFG puts out. Those Bandai models are pretty sweet... but they don't come with the bases you need. ...or the tokens you need. ...or the unit cards you need. ...or the upgrade cards you need. Sure, you can purchase the inevitable 3rd party tokens and make photocopies of the unit and upgrade cards, but those bases are going to be hard to find. I suppose you could buy one and make a mold to cast your own, but at some point you look at all the money you're spending on 3rd party stuff and all the time you're spending on replicating parts and you think, "maybe it would be cheaper and easier to just buy this kit from FFG". Also, I don't think the Space Hulk comparison is fair. Those models are in the same scale as the rest of the 40k line. Many of their standalone games use models that are sold separately to be compatible with 40k. FFG never advertised or intended Imperial Assault minis to be compatible with Legion. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

3. Games Workshop has, at best, a rudimentary organized play system. 99% of the events out there are run of the mill store or non-GW tournament events. These events aren't official and aren't sanctioned or supported by Games Workshop. The stores make up whatever house rules they want, with many using one of the various tournament packages. With games like X-Wing and Armada, the overwhelming majority of store events are supported by FFG through Organized Play Kits. There are prizes involved and an expectation that everyone will play by the official rules. This includes having official parts. I play a lot of Armada. When I go to an event, I don't mind if my opponent has modified or otherwise replaced the actual ship, but I do expect to see the official ship base, unit cards and upgrade cards. I expect that if he wants to field a Star Destroyer, that he has purchased (or borrowed) a Star Destroyer. I think Legion will be the same. If you prefer that Bandai AT-ST, great... but it had better be on an FFG base with official unit and upgrade cards. I don't want to play against an army of proxy models with a proxy unit card, proxy tokens and proxy upgrade cards. The way some people talk, it sounds like they want to play Legion without actually buying the game.

4. That rolls me into my last point. Legion isn't free. It doesn't matter if you already own a printer, some Imperial Assault Stormtroopers and a Bandai 1/48 scale AT-ST. Legion is an entirely new game with it's own components. If you want to be able to play in the majority of store events, you're going to need to shell out some money. Legion also isn't expensive. Starting from zero, you can purchase a full sized army with a variety of choices, all the rules you need AND half of a second faction army for about $150-165. With Warhammer 40k, that would be the equivalent of buying core rules, 2000 points of one faction, 1000 points of a second faction, Codexes/Indexes for both factions and all the dice, tape measures, etc. you need to play. I'm not going to price that out, but it would be a hell of a lot more than $165. Compared to 40k, Legion is likely to be comparatively cheap over the long run.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 13:08:22


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 MrMoustaffa wrote:


If someone tried this in historicals, or say GW told you you weren't allowed to use Space Hulk Miniatures in 40k, people would have pitchforks out right now.



When the '99 version of Space Hulk dropped, GW did not allow people to use the Terminators from Space Hulk in 40K, until a few years later when the terminators went up from being on 25mm to being resculpted as larger models. The genestealers were also illegal as many of the figures would not fit on standard bases.

Overall, I'm not too worried. I intend to buy in this as Imperial, doubt I will pick up the AT-ST, and I still have both my WotC minis and figures from the plastic "force commander" toy line that ended not too long ago if I don't want to buy the current line. Of course, I'm not a competitive player - this gaming stuff is just all for casual fun for me.

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 Stormonu wrote:
...I intend to buy in this as Imperial, doubt I will pick up the AT-ST, and I still have both my WotC minis and figures from the plastic "force commander" toy line that ended not too long ago if I don't want to buy the current line. Of course, I'm not a competitive player - this gaming stuff is just all for casual fun for me.

Yes - you hit the nail on the head here.

Miniature games are a different beast than most and FFG may end up realizing that many Star Wars: Legion players have a different approach than the typical gamer. The X-Wing crowd may be fine with buying a whole expansion simply for a new unit option, but the casual crowd just laughs at that concept.

This means my "casual gamer plan" to play Star Wars: Legion is:
-buy nothing more at retail than the Starter
-get the raw models off of Ebay on the cheap,
-use an army list program for unit composition,
-I'll proxy whatever I want, and
-I'll use whatever damn vehicle model I want to use, thank you.

People will ask - what about tournaments? I've played 40K for twenty years and have only played in one tournament that whole time. So I don't care. Others won't either. Just play casually in store or at a mate's house.

Mez

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/04 16:26:03


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Are there any plans to cover the Sequel Trilogy with the First Order and Resistance?
   
 
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